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Interesting Comparison Between Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher and Mike Shanahan!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Well again, it depends on what you consider 'medicore'.

    Griese was fairly plain and uninspiring, but statistically, he was better than the QBs Cowher had.

    Plummer, in my opinion, was better than many of us gave/give him credit for. I can post his numbers for you if you'd like. Was he Elway or Montana? Hardly. But I do believe he's as good or better than all the QBs Cowher had.
    He wasn't before he came to denver. He wasn't better than Kordell Stewart. Cowher stuck with Kordell (which was almost his falling) and went to the AFC Championship game with him. But Plummer threw for 114 INTs in just 84 starts for AZ before coming to Denver, and only completed above 60% of his passes twice in his career (both with Denver). Five of his first 8 seasons he threw for more than 20 INTs a season. The only reason he didn't his rookie year was because he started only 10 games.. and still threw 15. His third season he started 12 games, and had 9 TDs to 24INTs. I know there are a LOT of people that will say it was because he played for AZ, but even in Denver he had one out of his first three where he threw for 20 INTs, and the last season he was obviously falling fast.

    So although Jake was good on his feet.... he was not a good passer.. ever. I always thought he was a average QB, with above average feet. It wasn't until the last of his 10 year career that he threw finally threw as many TDs as INTs. Even with his great feet, he still rarely ran for more than 2 TDs a season (only accomplished that twice in his career).

    To me, thats pretty damn mediocre.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
      He wasn't before he came to denver. He wasn't better than Kordell Stewart. Cowher stuck with Kordell (which was almost his falling) and went to the AFC Championship game with him. But Plummer threw for 114 INTs in just 84 starts for AZ before coming to Denver, and only completed above 60% of his passes twice in his career (both with Denver). Five of his first 8 seasons he threw for more than 20 INTs a season. The only reason he didn't his rookie year was because he started only 10 games.. and still threw 15. His third season he started 12 games, and had 9 TDs to 24INTs. I know there are a LOT of people that will say it was because he played for AZ, but even in Denver he had one out of his first three where he threw for 20 INTs, and the last season he was obviously falling fast.

      So although Jake was good on his feet.... he was not a good passer.. ever. I always thought he was a average QB, with above average feet. It wasn't until the last of his 10 year career that he threw finally threw as many TDs as INTs. Even with his great feet, he still rarely ran for more than 2 TDs a season (only accomplished that twice in his career).

      To me, thats pretty damn mediocre.
      I can't argue that Plummer's numbers prior to coming to Denver were fairly mediocre.

      But consider that, after hist first 10 seasons in Denver, Elway only had 1 more TD than INT in his career (158-157), threw more INTs than TDs in a season 4 times during that period, and only had a 20+ TD season once (22 in 1985).

      It could be reasonably argued that those numbers could be considered mediocre, as well, and that Elway's teams were far superior than any of the Cardinals' teams Plummer QB'd for.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
        Well again, it depends on what you consider 'medicore'.

        Griese was fairly plain and uninspiring, but statistically, he was better than the QBs Cowher had.

        Plummer, in my opinion, was better than many of us gave/give him credit for. I can post his numbers for you if you'd like. Was he Elway or Montana? Hardly. But I do believe he's as good or better than all the QBs Cowher had.
        I would have to disagree with that. Yes Big Ben had a really down year last year, but I think that has more to do with him headbutting cars than his skill (or lack thereof). As can be seen from this season, (New HC btw) he is doing well again.

        I had the opprtunity to see Rothlisburger in college play aginst CSU in 2003 (I think, it was Rothlisburger's senior year.) By far the best college QB I have ever seen play. Bar none. we went into it thinking hey, its a 1AA team, should be a cake walk.

        CSU got owned by Ben's arm - corse thats the reason he plays in the NFL now. My point is, take away last seaon's down year, and Ben is better than any QB Shanahan has had since Elway. Cutler MAY end up being better, but you can't say ben didn't have a better rookie year than Jay.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
          The biggest, most significant difference between Shanahan and Cowher (besides their styles of coaching) is that Cowher had someone else bringing in the talent.

          The biggest problem Mike Shanahan's critics have with him hasn't necessarily been his coaching on the field, but rather, his personnel decisions and drafts.

          Also, Cowher has won and contended with some fairly mediocre and inexperienced quarterbacks.
          This IS the issue right here in a nut shell! This is it ! Plain and simple!
          Of course Shenanigans is a great coach or a good coach or a hall of fame coach or a coach that should be in the top 20 of all time or a coach who loves football or blah blah blah. yes hes a good coach, but he's absolutely the worst drafter of talent ever! i'm not talking about the 1st rounders, which he has even managed to screw up from time to time.
          I am talking overall. If you cant admit this, then your just a HOMER. Period!
          This is the very reason the broncos are struggling RIGHT NOW!
          And the fact that Shenanigans alienates certain kinds of players from the team.
          These 2 aspects or downsides to Shenanigans causes him all kinds of problems as a coach. Other teams could have the same problems, i am not saying they dont! But that does not make it ok in Denver!
          I love how everytime Shenanigans is criticized on this site, theres a ton of posters who use the excuse that other teams or other coaches have had issues too, so its OK with Shanny.
          Whatever.
          I agree that Shanny needs to just be the coach and let the GM deal with personel and day to day manager duties. he is just not good at this.
          I remember Holmgren having a really tough time in Seattle when he 1st took over as both GM/HC. It just didnt work. He's a really great coach and teacher as well, and the guy just couldnt handle all the stress of sooo many responsibilities. Once he relinquished his GM duties, he has thrived in Seattle.
          its just a thought.
          Question: How many other HCs in the NFL, are also GMs?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by OC Bronco View Post
            I would have to disagree with that. Yes Big Ben had a really down year last year, but I think that has more to do with him headbutting cars than his skill (or lack thereof). As can be seen from this season, (New HC btw) he is doing well again.

            I had the opprtunity to see Rothlisburger in college play aginst CSU in 2003 (I think, it was Rothlisburger's senior year.) By far the best college QB I have ever seen play. Bar none. we went into it thinking hey, its a 1AA team, should be a cake walk.

            CSU got owned by Ben's arm - corse thats the reason he plays in the NFL now. My point is, take away last seaon's down year, and Ben is better than any QB Shanahan has had since Elway. Cutler MAY end up being better, but you can't say ben didn't have a better rookie year than Jay.
            It's far too early to judge Ben right now in his career. I don't think Ben has played better for Pittsburgh than Plummer played for us, and again, statistics would mostly support that.

            And I did see Jake play for Arizona State - he was one of the best QBs I saw play in college, too.

            My point is, I want to see how the rest of his career unfolds before I label Ben anything.
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            • #21
              Question: How many other HCs in the NFL, are also GMs?
              Not any that I'm aware of.

              Holmgren in Seattle basically had Mike Shanahan's position there, but he stepped down as GM when he was feeling pressure from fans and ownership.

              Even Jeff Fisher, who has been coaching longer than Shanahan and for the same team, doesn't have the type of power Shanahan has with the Titans.

              Basically, Shanahan has the most power of any HC over his team in the NFL.
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              • #22
                The biggest, most significant difference between Shanahan and Cowher is that Cowher had someone else bringing in the talent.

                If anyone thinks that Cowher was told who the Steelers where going to draft.

                Is flat and completely wrong.


                socalorado1
                I see no reason into talking trash about either of these head coaches.What happens is in trying to display your football knowledge by bashing them.You end up looking like a buffoon and not an expert.
                :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cugel View Post

                  Then in 2002 they fell to 10-5-1, and lost the wild-card game to the Cleveland Browns in overtime.
                  Not true.
                  Actually - we beat the Browns 36-33 in one of the greatest comebacks ever in the wildcard game with Tommy Maddox at QB!... and lost the divisional playoff game to Tennessee in OT.

                  It's all about Ben.

                  And now this year it's all about Tomlin.....he's lit the fire again.

                  Many in Steeltown have said we won SB XL in spite of Cowher.
                  His conservative ways were always compared to Martyball. Those days are over.

                  We got a new sheriff in town.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
                    The biggest, most significant difference between Shanahan and Cowher is that Cowher had someone else bringing in the talent.

                    If anyone thinks that Cowher was told who the Steelers where going to draft.

                    Is flat and completely wrong.


                    socalorado1
                    I see no reason into talking trash about either of these head coaches.What happens is in trying to display your football knowledge by bashing them.You end up looking like a buffoon and not an expert.
                    humpingbaby
                    I have absolutely no idea where i "talked trash" on either of these 2 coaches!
                    I never bashed either of them in my latest posts!
                    Also, if criticizing a player or coach is to you "bashing", then get used to it.
                    Please find where i BASHED either of the coaches.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
                      The biggest, most significant difference between Shanahan and Cowher is that Cowher had someone else bringing in the talent.

                      If anyone thinks that Cowher was told who the Steelers where going to draft.

                      Is flat and completely wrong.


                      socalorado1
                      I see no reason into talking trash about either of these head coaches.What happens is in trying to display your football knowledge by bashing them.You end up looking like a buffoon and not an expert.
                      Whereas I believe Cowher had influence in who the Steelers drafted, picked up, let go, etc., it's no different than most any other coach in the NFL.

                      The fact is, Shanahan is the ULTIMATE decision maker with regards to talent for the Broncos. No way you can tell me that Cowher had that type of power with the Steelers, becuase it's simply not true.
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                        Whereas I believe Cowher had influence in who the Steelers drafted, picked up, let go, etc., it's no different than most any other coach in the NFL.

                        The fact is, Shanahan is the ULTIMATE decision maker with regards to talent for the Broncos. No way you can tell me that Cowher had that type of power with the Steelers, becuase it's simply not true.
                        (sarcasm on!)
                        Dont bash MOJO, dont hate man. Thats not acceptable here. take it somewhere else........

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                        • #27
                          "i'm not talking about the 1st rounders, which he has even managed to screw up from time to time."
                          This is the very reason the broncos are struggling RIGHT NOW!

                          Look a GM watches the team.
                          GM and scouts look at college players all season and yes the Broncos have a GM.
                          At the end of the season
                          GM/Scouts/HC Sit down and go over more info about the college player's that you and I will ever understand.

                          Head Coach go's over all this info and the decides who he want's to draft.
                          It does no matter what coach or what team you are talking about.

                          The only time this does not happen in the draft is when a player is brought in to sell tickets more so then winning games.
                          :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
                            "i'm not talking about the 1st rounders, which he has even managed to screw up from time to time."
                            This is the very reason the broncos are struggling RIGHT NOW!

                            Look a GM watches the team.
                            GM and scouts look at college players all season and yes the Broncos have a GM.
                            At the end of the season
                            GM/Scouts/HC Sit down and go over more info about the college player's that you and I will ever understand.

                            Head Coach go's over all this info and the decides who he want's to draft.
                            It does no matter what coach or what team you are talking about.

                            The only time this does not happen in the draft is when a player is brought in to sell tickets more so then winning games.
                            For most teams, the General Manager supercedes the head coach when it comes to draft decisions.
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                              For most teams, the General Manager supercedes the head coach when it comes to draft decisions.
                              This is true.
                              And i'm not bashing him. I am simply stating a fact that he has blown it in drafting players. Its criticism, not flat out bashing.
                              however, i will admit that i have in the past BASHED him for his piss poor drafting. I will not do this again, since it no longer serves any purpose.
                              AS Ravage would say, its over with, so who cares now?!?! move on.
                              it still is though, one of the main reasons for the current dillema.
                              Now that being said, who would make for a good GM? is this a option?

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                              • #30
                                No they dont man a GM dont tell his head coach this is who we are drafting now deal with it.

                                Like I said all 3 factors GM/Scout/HC sit down at the end season and they go from there.If the team is any kind of a winning franchise the HC has alot to do with who the team drafts.

                                No one told Bill Cowher how to run the Steelers or who he had to draft.

                                Dont expect me to buy that becuase it is not true.
                                :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

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