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  • Defensive Question

    I recently read on the Bronocs main page that Bates has taken responsiblity for the defensive failings. I, admittedly, have been a critic of his since the pre-season, and on one hand appreciate his honesty and ownership of the problem, but don't think it is enough. He has had the same problems week in and week out and failed to correct them. Our run defense is now officially last in the league. Dre and Champ have 1 int. a piece. We fail to pressure QB's regularly. These types of shortcomings tell me that it is the defensive scheme and play calling, not the players. We have 4 pro-bowlers on our defense, there is no reason we should not be a dominating defense. Furthermore, how many weeks does Bates need to figure out how to stop a run play, or not give up 40 yards on a 2nd and 33?

    I just want to get a feeling for what the Country thinks about this situation. Am I crazy?

  • #2
    I happen to agree with you completely. It is true that we needed some D help, especially at the line positions last year, ....but we drafted for that, didn't we? And doesn't EVERY TEAM in the league need help somewhere at the end of the year?

    I thought so....

    I have NEVER been a Jim Bates fan, and will probably never be one. I've just seen too many good D-coordinators come in and turn teams around rather quickly by letting the players do what they do best. His elephant-like gestation period gives me hives. I also don't care for his re-inventing the mousetrap philosophy. Defense works best when the player doesn't have to think about much other than laying a guy out.

    We HAVE the talent, although a new stud at LB would be a definite plus....we lack the defensive coaching, but even a blind man could see that at this point.

    Between some of these fan's obvious love-affair with Jim Bates and Jelly Donut Man (aka Sam Adams), and the endless counseling for "patience" after watching the Bronco's run into a brick wall on a weekly basis, I can see our team getting excused and being given a free pass for pretty much destroying one of the better defenses in the NFL.

    ...and all in only one year too.....amazing that.

    Perhaps they should start wearing t-shirts that say, "Just Wait Till 2012!!! Patience Is A Virtue!"

    Not in the NFL it's not...

    Comment


    • #3
      Good point

      Yes we did draft to fix the defensive line, and made some good picks. Moss and Dumerville have been the only two people consistantly getting near the QB, but I don't fault our picks for the status of our defense. I don't expect rookies to turn the program around, but I do expect coaching to turn it around. I'm with you on drafting a beefy linebacker, and I think that perhaps Trotter would have been a better decision than Rice (although I am happy we got Rice).

      It burns me up to see us give up third down after third down, and then people want to blame the offense for not being good in the red zone. Granted they aren't, but maybe if they were on the field a little more, we might be able to turn that around, plus Cutler is a rookie in my book still (and will be untill he plays 16 games) and you can't expect him to bring us out of the ashes every game when the defense gets us in a hole early and he's forced to throw every down because we're playing catch-up the whole game.

      Comment


      • #4
        Square Pegs

        Which defensive scheme is the best?

        I think the answer to that question depends on what personel you have on your team. Right now we don't have the players that fit his system well. (Last I checked D.J. wasn't exactly a Zach Thomas, and our rookie and second year ends weren't Jason Taylor). Instead of being stubborn and sticking to a losing plan, Bates should tailor his defense to his personel.

        When I was playing in college our d-coordinator had a 3-4 scheme...one year we had a lot of great defensive lineman and were thin at LB so we switched to a 5 down lineman "Bear" defense. It ended up being the best defense I ever played on.

        When Bates was talking about Gerard Warren he said Warren was a "square peg" trying to fit into a round hole. Since Gerrard's departure he's had a great year at Oakland, and even recorded a saftey against us. Perhaps Bates' scheme is the square peg? Lets try some things that better cator to our personel Jimmy...

        Comment


        • #5
          It's been demonstrated that the players aren't tackling and they aren't maintaining their gaps.

          The scheme has produced top ten defenses in two cities.

          The scheme is not the problem. It's the players. The coaches can only do so much. The players have to execute. When you don't maintain your gap and you don't tackle, you're not executing. If the linebackers would maintain their gaps, stop over pursuing, and make a freaking tackle, the defense wouldn't be as bad as it is. As far as the pass rush goes, the front four is just going to have to get better at getting pressure, especially the defensive ends.

          I think it's possible that they don't quite have all the right players for the scheme. It's not easy to get all the right players for a new scheme in one offseason. That doesn't excuse the players from not maintaining their gaps and not tackling though.
          My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
          You Mad Bro?
          Don’t Be A Mean Girl

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by broncolee View Post
            It's been demonstrated that the players aren't tackling and they aren't maintaining their gaps.

            The scheme has produced top ten defenses in two cities.

            The scheme is not the problem. It's the players. The coaches can only do so much. The players have to execute. When you don't maintain your gap and you don't tackle, you're not executing. If the linebackers would maintain their gaps, stop over pursuing, and make a freaking tackle, the defense wouldn't be as bad as it is. As far as the pass rush goes, the front four is just going to have to get better at getting pressure, especially the defensive ends.

            I think it's possible that they don't quite have all the right players for the scheme. It's not easy to get all the right players for a new scheme in one offseason. That doesn't excuse the players from not maintaining their gaps and not tackling though.
            How can you blame the players? It's the coordinators' responsibility to adapt the defense to the players and talent he has available, not the other way around. By blaming the players, you're saying that Champ and Dre just aren't good anymore and that's why they aren't getting picks. Why should the secondary, which should be the most dominating in the league based on the fact that we have 3 pro-bowlers, have to change what got them to the pro-bowl to begin with?

            I agree that players are out of position occasionally and the line-backers aren't making all the plays that they should, but you can only blame them so much when we consistantly cave on third down, and consistantly can't stop the run. That's poor coaching to not correct those problems, especially when you recognize that you have the same problem every week, and have pro-bowl talent.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by broncolee View Post
              It's been demonstrated that the players aren't tackling and they aren't maintaining their gaps.

              The scheme has produced top ten defenses in two cities.

              The scheme is not the problem. It's the players. The coaches can only do so much. The players have to execute. When you don't maintain your gap and you don't tackle, you're not executing. If the linebackers would maintain their gaps, stop over pursuing, and make a freaking tackle, the defense wouldn't be as bad as it is. As far as the pass rush goes, the front four is just going to have to get better at getting pressure, especially the defensive ends.

              I think it's possible that they don't quite have all the right players for the scheme. It's not easy to get all the right players for a new scheme in one offseason. That doesn't excuse the players from not maintaining their gaps and not tackling though.

              Odd.... Seems to me that, overall, the defense was pretty decent last year, with the exception that there wasn't much in the way of a pass rush and, of course, losing Al Wilson. Sure, they weren't the best in the league, but at the beginning of the season, they were rated about #5. When the offense couldn't produce, they just got plain worn out. We now have an offensive unit that could be very productive, but are stuck playing catch up all the time because the defense sucks. As someone mentioned, we have 4 Pro Bowlers on defense, and they aren't being used in the way that exploits their talents. Just because Bates has had success on other teams doesn't mean that it'll work anywhere else. That's like saying that Norv Turner is great because Dallas won some Superbowls. Do we really want to make that comparison???

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
                I recently read on the Bronocs main page that Bates has taken responsiblity for the defensive failings. I, admittedly, have been a critic of his since the pre-season, and on one hand appreciate his honesty and ownership of the problem, but don't think it is enough. He has had the same problems week in and week out and failed to correct them. Our run defense is now officially last in the league. Dre and Champ have 1 int. a piece. We fail to pressure QB's regularly. These types of shortcomings tell me that it is the defensive scheme and play calling, not the players. We have 4 pro-bowlers on our defense, there is no reason we should not be a dominating defense. Furthermore, how many weeks does Bates need to figure out how to stop a run play, or not give up 40 yards on a 2nd and 33?

                I just want to get a feeling for what the Country thinks about this situation. Am I crazy?
                I would not rule out the possibility that it's a personnel issue. We lose Wilson, Warren & Myers. The very next year the center of the line isn't getting a push and we're missing assignments and tackles from the LBs. Is it the system or the players? Could be either or both. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's the players, as the very thing we're lacking (run-stopping) were the responsibilities of the players we replaced.
                "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

                sigpic

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                • #9
                  bates is a stubborn idiot. sure were missing tackles and that is sort of the players fault, correct the prolem with non stop tackling drills in practice, whos job is that, the coaches. Since missing tackles seems to be our biggest defensive problem that can be blamed on the players aside from the occaisonal missed assignment. our biggest problem is the fact that we couldnt call a defensive play if our lifes depended on it, and in a sense our playoff lives really do. i mean watch the tapes for the past 5 weeks and look at the oppositions play calls on offence compared to the defensive calls made to stop them. we could have a champ bailey calibre player in every position and we would still lose because we cant call a defensive play, oh and even if you fixed this problem we still wouldnt be able to win because of our speical teams. of course if we fixed this problem we wouldnt lose 41-3
                  go broncos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
                    How can you blame the players? It's the coordinators' responsibility to adapt the defense to the players and talent he has available, not the other way around. By blaming the players, you're saying that Champ and Dre just aren't good anymore and that's why they aren't getting picks. Why should the secondary, which should be the most dominating in the league based on the fact that we have 3 pro-bowlers, have to change what got them to the pro-bowl to begin with?

                    I agree that players are out of position occasionally and the line-backers aren't making all the plays that they should, but you can only blame them so much when we consistantly cave on third down, and consistantly can't stop the run. That's poor coaching to not correct those problems, especially when you recognize that you have the same problem every week, and have pro-bowl talent.
                    I can blame the players because they are the ones not executing on the field. The coaches can tell the players which gaps to cover until they get blue in the face but that won't help if the players keep missing their assignments. They can have the players run through tackling drills until they are black and blue all over their bodies but that won't help if the players keep missing tackles. I find it hard to believe that the defensive coaching staff has forgotten how to teach the fundamentals of football. I also find it hard to believe that Bates has forgotten how to explain to his players which gaps to cover. It's the players' responsibility to use sound technique when tackling. It's the players' responsibility to know their assignments and execute those assignments.

                    Bly was brought in because his strength is man to man coverage which is something Bates utilizes more than Coyer did. What good is the secondary when the front seven(the front four in particular) can't get pressure on the quarterback? It's not that Champ and Bly aren't good players, the problem is that they can't cover receivers forever. The front four has to get pressure on the quarterback.

                    I think it's a bit naive to think that coordinators have to adapt to the talent instead of the talent adapting to the coordinator. That's just not the reality of the NFL. It should be the reality, but it's not. Bates might adjust his scheme in the short term to accommodate the current talent on the team, but you can almost be sure that if he's still in Denver next year, he's going to be pushing Shanahan and the front office to get more players that fit his scheme. That's how the NFL works. He's not going to abandon his overall philosophy. There's a reason Shanahan hired him. Shanahan knew from day one that Bates was going to bring his scheme to the defense. Shanahan obviously wanted that scheme. There's no reason he shouldn't want the scheme. The scheme has produced top ten defenses before.
                    My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                    You Mad Bro?
                    Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Two sayings

                      You do the best with what you have.

                      The buck stops here.

                      It is commendable that Bates has owned up to the defensive failures. Because at the end of the day, whatever his players are doing, he has to show that he has prepared his team against the opposing team. I believe that involves not to lose by 40+ points!

                      Maybe he was good somewhere, sometime, but in Denver, all I know is last year, these same players (at least most of them), were making the stud plays. Now? Well just look at the stats. Steadily, week after week, we give up more and more yards. I don't think that speaks of improvement. Can he honestly say that he is utilizing these very same players to their full potential? We can't all have stud players and the best of circumstance. So, we do the best with what we have. That's not happening here. At least for the first 5 games...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rev_rock View Post
                        Odd.... Seems to me that, overall, the defense was pretty decent last year, with the exception that there wasn't much in the way of a pass rush and, of course, losing Al Wilson. Sure, they weren't the best in the league, but at the beginning of the season, they were rated about #5. When the offense couldn't produce, they just got plain worn out. We now have an offensive unit that could be very productive, but are stuck playing catch up all the time because the defense sucks. As someone mentioned, we have 4 Pro Bowlers on defense, and they aren't being used in the way that exploits their talents. Just because Bates has had success on other teams doesn't mean that it'll work anywhere else. That's like saying that Norv Turner is great because Dallas won some Superbowls. Do we really want to make that comparison???
                        When was Norv Turner ever the head coach of the Cowboys when they won Super Bowls? Noone will ever call Turner a great head coach. When it comes to offensive coordinators though, he's in the upper echelon.

                        Bates has produced top ten defenses in two cities with his scheme. That's why Shanahan hired him. While the offensive performance was a major factor in last year's results, the defense wasn't as good as advertised during the first 7 games. They basically had a bend don't break approach which in the end isn't going to work unless your offense is scoring points as often as Wilt Chamberlain scored with the ladies. Even when the defense wasn't giving up points, they were still giving up a bunch of yards. Teams were getting in to the red zone with regularity. The defense at first was able to tighten up and prevent touchdowns. In the end, they weren't so good at that.

                        The offensive woes this year aren't just about the defense. They can't score in the red zone and the special teams suck. Of the seven touchdown drives they've had, only two of them were less than 70 yards and only one less than 60 yards. The special teams are ranked last in more than one category.

                        Give Bates the right players and the scheme will work.
                        Last edited by broncolee; 10-17-2007, 05:02 PM.
                        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                        You Mad Bro?
                        Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We are last place.....not because of players, because we hired the biggest piece of junk in the league.

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                          • #14
                            Seems like we have a pinto for defense and yet we expect a porsche to be on the field...


                            bates is a used car dealer so far...he has made Denver the butt-end of jokes and that just sucks. We have taalent on our D yet they struggle, seems like Bates needs to adapt a new system to fit the guys we have...or we fire Bates and get a guy who can put in a system that works towards our D's strengths...
                            If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. --General George S. Patton

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                              Give Bates the right players and the scheme will work.

                              I thought that's what this offseason was all about?
                              How many resources were spent this offseason on defensive personel?

                              Shall we count the ways? Perhaps, just the names-Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Marcus Thomas, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley-Simeon Rice most recently-and Jimmy Kennedy, who at the very least, showed physical promise.

                              What commitment to personel was shown to Larry Coyer-who you were critical of?
                              Bertrand Berry-who has a derserved pro-bowl appearance, was allowed to leave.
                              As was Reggie Heyward, who's becoming a staple in Jacksonville.
                              Trevor Pryce was cut.
                              What did Coyer get? The Browncos', who admitedly were an improvement given Demetrin Veal was an undrafted free agent.

                              I was an ardent supporter of Bates-but no longer. His credentials and results from his influence in Miami and Green Bay speak to competance. Those responsible for personel did their best to give him the bodies to "run his sytem", but I've seen enough of that "we'll do what we do come hell or high water" approach to vomit. Coyer changed his philosophical approach from season to season to match the contstant overturn of undertalented defenders he was given. What has Bates changed? He's inflated the yards per carry numbers of opposing running backs, I'll give him that.
                              Last edited by db32; 10-17-2007, 11:42 PM.

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