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  • #16
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    I can blame the players because they are the ones not executing on the field. The coaches can tell the players which gaps to cover until they get blue in the face but that won't help if the players keep missing their assignments. They can have the players run through tackling drills until they are black and blue all over their bodies but that won't help if the players keep missing tackles. I find it hard to believe that the defensive coaching staff has forgotten how to teach the fundamentals of football. I also find it hard to believe that Bates has forgotten how to explain to his players which gaps to cover. It's the players' responsibility to use sound technique when tackling. It's the players' responsibility to know their assignments and execute those assignments.

    Bly was brought in because his strength is man to man coverage which is something Bates utilizes more than Coyer did. What good is the secondary when the front seven(the front four in particular) can't get pressure on the quarterback? It's not that Champ and Bly aren't good players, the problem is that they can't cover receivers forever. The front four has to get pressure on the quarterback.

    I think it's a bit naive to think that coordinators have to adapt to the talent instead of the talent adapting to the coordinator. That's just not the reality of the NFL. It should be the reality, but it's not. Bates might adjust his scheme in the short term to accommodate the current talent on the team, but you can almost be sure that if he's still in Denver next year, he's going to be pushing Shanahan and the front office to get more players that fit his scheme. That's how the NFL works. He's not going to abandon his overall philosophy. There's a reason Shanahan hired him. Shanahan knew from day one that Bates was going to bring his scheme to the defense. Shanahan obviously wanted that scheme. There's no reason he shouldn't want the scheme. The scheme has produced top ten defenses before.





    when you have to keep bringing your corners and safties to make tackles your gonna get burned front 7 has not been getting the job done period
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    • #17
      Originally posted by broncolee View Post

      Give Bates the right players and the scheme will work.






      give me the right players i could make it work, lets see I want, CHAMP BAILEY, DRE BLY , JOHN LYNCH, DWIGHT FREENY, RAY LEWIS, SHAWN MERRIMAN, JASON TAYLOR, WARREN SAPP, HALOTI NGATA, BRIAN URLACHER.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by db32 View Post
        I thought that's what this offseason was all about?
        How many resources were spent this offseason on defensive personel?

        Shall we count the ways? Perhaps, just the names-Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Marcus Thomas, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley-Simeon Rice most recently-and Jimmy Kennedy, who at the very least, showed physical promise.

        What commitment to personel was shown to Larry Coyer-who you were critical of?
        Bertrand Berry-who has a derserved pro-bowl appearance, was allowed to leave.
        As was Reggie Heyward, who's becoming a staple in Jacksonville.
        Trevor Pryce was cut.
        What did Coyer get? The Browncos', who admitedly were an improvement given Demetrin Veal was an undrafted free agent.

        I was an ardent supporter of Bates-but no longer. His credentials and results from his influence in Miami and Green Bay speak to competance. Those responsible for personel did their best to give him the bodies to "run his sytem", but I've seen enough of that "we'll do what we do come hell or high water" approach to vomit. Coyer changed his philosophical approach from season to season to match the contstant overturn of undertalented defenders he was given. What has Bates changed? He's inflated the yards per carry numbers of opposing running backs, I'll give him that.
        Well said. And on top of that, we got rid of Warren, and Veal to help him "have the right personnel."
        You can blame the players for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that comes back to coaching. If the players aren't understanding your scheme, which clearly they aren't if they are consistantly in the wrong position as Broncolee points out, then how is that their fault that the coordinator isn't getting the right message across.
        Furthermore, Broncolee, Bates has been running zone coverage, which is why we have been eaten alive on the run and short passes. The corners have been playing off the recievers (10 yards off usually), not man to man which would be the smarter choice with 2 pro-bowl corners. I agree that the lack of qb pressure has made it difficult for the db's to cover, but Bates has failed to make the team any better at anything that they have been bad at. If he were truly such a great coordinator, shouldn't he be able to adapt to his situation and improve the defense? Personnel is not an excuse, if that were a valid arguement, why would Shanny hire him knowing that he couldn't do anything with the team he has or would have after the draft and free agency?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by db32 View Post
          I thought that's what this offseason was all about?
          How many resources were spent this offseason on defensive personel?

          Shall we count the ways? Perhaps, just the names-Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Marcus Thomas, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley-Simeon Rice most recently-and Jimmy Kennedy, who at the very least, showed physical promise.

          What commitment to personel was shown to Larry Coyer-who you were critical of?
          Bertrand Berry-who has a derserved pro-bowl appearance, was allowed to leave.
          As was Reggie Heyward, who's becoming a staple in Jacksonville.
          Trevor Pryce was cut.
          What did Coyer get? The Browncos', who admitedly were an improvement given Demetrin Veal was an undrafted free agent.

          I was an ardent supporter of Bates-but no longer. His credentials and results from his influence in Miami and Green Bay speak to competance. Those responsible for personel did their best to give him the bodies to "run his sytem", but I've seen enough of that "we'll do what we do come hell or high water" approach to vomit. Coyer changed his philosophical approach from season to season to match the contstant overturn of undertalented defenders he was given. What has Bates changed? He's inflated the yards per carry numbers of opposing running backs, I'll give him that.
          Perhaps Bates doesn't have all the players he needs to run his scheme. Considering Marcus Thomas is behind Amon Gordon, who supposedly was deactivated for the Colts game because of poor performance in practice, could be an indication that they guessed wrong about him being a fit for the scheme. Gordon is still listed as the starter.

          From what I understand, Bates likes tall, massive defensive tackles. The only one that really fits that description is Adams, who only plays about 20 snaps per game. Perhaps Burton, who's listed at 6'2" 325 lbs can be put in that category, but what good does that do if hasn't proved he can start. He's the 3rd DT for both tackle spots.

          They got rid of Warren and Kennedy. Warren refused to adapt to the scheme because he couldn't get the glory of the sacks. Kennedy was apparently just bad at run stopping, which was something that was pointed out when we traded for him. He wasn't very good at it in St. Louis but for some reason, the Broncos thought they could get him to do it for them. Kennedy was another big tackle that had dreams of being a sack master. We got rid of two big tackles that had the physical attributes to play the scheme but they just couldn't do it for one reason or another.

          I'm not convinced that the DTs are the main problem though. Perhaps the Broncos would be better served by not rotating the defensive line too much. Pick four starters and let them play and get into a rhythm. Perhaps Thomas does fit the system well. Maybe he should be one of the four starters. Clearly something has to be done.

          Maybe it's the linebackers. Perhaps Bates doesn't have the linebackers he needs. The linebackers aren't covering the right gaps and they aren't tackling. I know that Zach Thomas isn't particularly big so DJ would at least appear to have the physical stature to play MLB in the scheme. The question is whether or not he has the football intelligence to play the position. Perhaps Webster would be better suited to play MLB, whether it be as the starter or the back up. Maybe Gold needs to go.

          Bates' scheme works. It's been proved in more than one city. It would be nice if the Broncos could adjust their approach to better use the talent on the team. That's doesn't appear to be how the NFL works though. I think it's pretty much standard practice to adjust the players to the scheme rather than the scheme to the players.
          My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
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          • #20
            I must admit... I was hopeful but skeptical when we decided to hire Jim Bates.

            It's already week 7, and I believe it's safe to say that much of our defensive breakdown should be attributed to Bates and his scheme:

            He requested two strong cover corners: Bailey and Bly
            He requested 2 big DT's in the middle: S. Adams and A. Gordan
            He requested speed rusher DE's: newly aquired J. Moss, S. Rice, not to mention Dumervil getting it done...

            DJ is not sufficiently fulfilling his role at MLB - Ian Gold CANNOT cover...

            Bates has had a lot of control since FA - that is ample time to develop the defense. He has gotten what wants, and the Defense is failing...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
              Well said. And on top of that, we got rid of Warren, and Veal to help him "have the right personnel."
              You can blame the players for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that comes back to coaching. If the players aren't understanding your scheme, which clearly they aren't if they are consistantly in the wrong position as Broncolee points out, then how is that their fault that the coordinator isn't getting the right message across.
              Furthermore, Broncolee, Bates has been running zone coverage, which is why we have been eaten alive on the run and short passes. The corners have been playing off the recievers (10 yards off usually), not man to man which would be the smarter choice with 2 pro-bowl corners. I agree that the lack of qb pressure has made it difficult for the db's to cover, but Bates has failed to make the team any better at anything that they have been bad at. If he were truly such a great coordinator, shouldn't he be able to adapt to his situation and improve the defense? Personnel is not an excuse, if that were a valid arguement, why would Shanny hire him knowing that he couldn't do anything with the team he has or would have after the draft and free agency?
              If the Broncos are getting eaten alive by the run and short passes because they are playing zone coverages, then I would still blame the players because playing zone coverage isn't an excuse for giving up huge yardage against the run or short passes. The zone might give up a lot of completions on short passes, but it shouldn't give up a lot of yards because the defender is supposed to come up and make the tackle.

              The Broncos playing a lot of zone would indicate that Shanahan has been meddling with the defensive decisions. I would guess the reason for that is the belief that Bailey is better when he plays off the receiver rather than man to man. Maybe it wasn't Shanahan. Maybe Bailey managed to convince Bates that playing more zone than man to man was a better way to take advantage of his talents. Maybe Bates made the decision himself because he is concerned about the front four not getting pressure on the quarterback.

              The reasons don't matter. For one reason or another the Broncos aren't executing the scheme the way it's meant to be executed. If the reason turns out to be that Shanahan was meddling where he shouldn't be meddling, Bates might decide that he's better off going somewhere else. If it's because the players just aren't doing the things they're supposed to do on the field, I would expect that some players will be released or traded in an effort to bring in players who will do the things they're supposed to do.
              My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
              You Mad Bro?
              Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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              • #22
                Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                If the Broncos are getting eaten alive by the run and short passes because they are playing zone coverages, then I would still blame the players because playing zone coverage isn't an excuse for giving up huge yardage against the run or short passes. The zone might give up a lot of completions on short passes, but it shouldn't give up a lot of yards because the defender is supposed to come up and make the tackle.

                The Broncos playing a lot of zone would indicate that Shanahan has been meddling with the defensive decisions. I would guess the reason for that is the belief that Bailey is better when he plays off the receiver rather than man to man. Maybe it wasn't Shanahan. Maybe Bailey managed to convince Bates that playing more zone than man to man was a better way to take advantage of his talents. Maybe Bates made the decision himself because he is concerned about the front four not getting pressure on the quarterback.

                The reasons don't matter. For one reason or another the Broncos aren't executing the scheme the way it's meant to be executed. If the reason turns out to be that Shanahan was meddling where he shouldn't be meddling, Bates might decide that he's better off going somewhere else. If it's because the players just aren't doing the things they're supposed to do on the field, I would expect that some players will be released or traded in an effort to bring in players who will do the things they're supposed to do.
                I agree that the linebackers aren't getting it done in Bates' scheme. Whatever the reason may be, it needs to change. The play calling is horrible, and clearly the "scheme" isn't working. Whether it be the players not understanding the scheme, or just that the scheme stinks for the players we have is irrelevant. The point is if he were a good coach, he would adjust his scheme so it does work on some level rather than doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, and achieving small improvements every game, rather than continually getting worse (giving up 41 points at home versus giving up 20 earlier in the season). He may have done well with two other defenses, but what is he going to do now? If you want to play the "he used to be good" game, would you like to discuss Trent Dilfer? The past is just that, the past. I want to know what he is going to do NOW.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
                  I agree that the linebackers aren't getting it done in Bates' scheme. Whatever the reason may be, it needs to change. The play calling is horrible, and clearly the "scheme" isn't working. Whether it be the players not understanding the scheme, or just that the scheme stinks for the players we have is irrelevant. The point is if he were a good coach, he would adjust his scheme so it does work on some level rather than doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, and achieving small improvements every game, rather than continually getting worse (giving up 41 points at home versus giving up 20 earlier in the season). He may have done well with two other defenses, but what is he going to do now? If you want to play the "he used to be good" game, would you like to discuss Trent Dilfer? The past is just that, the past. I want to know what he is going to do NOW.
                  The players aren't covering the right gaps. The players aren't making the tackles. The players aren't executing. That's the players' fault not the coaches'.

                  If the players were covering the right gaps and there were still holes that were left unaccounted for by the scheme, then it would be the coaches' fault. That's not the case. The linebackers are not maintaining their gaps. They aren't making the tackles.

                  I refuse to blame the coaches when the players aren't executing their assignments. The coaches can only show the players what to do and how to do it. The players have to go out on the field and do it. They aren't doing it. They need to start doing it.
                  My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                  You Mad Bro?
                  Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                    The players aren't covering the right gaps. The players aren't making the tackles. The players aren't executing. That's the players' fault not the coaches'.

                    If the players were covering the right gaps and there were still holes that were left unaccounted for by the scheme, then it would be the coaches' fault. That's not the case. The linebackers are not maintaining their gaps. They aren't making the tackles.

                    I refuse to blame the coaches when the players aren't executing their assignments. The coaches can only show the players what to do and how to do it. The players have to go out on the field and do it. They aren't doing it. They need to start doing it.
                    And you don't blame coaching at all for not improving any of that? So really it's just that we have a bunch of sub-talented players with 4 people who have somehow fluked their way into repeat pro-bowls, and aren't smart enough to understand the genius of Jim Bates' scheme or how it works?

                    I understand we haven't been making tackles and filling gaps, and some of that responsibility certainly lies on the players' shoulders. But that begs the question of "why?" And if we know why, why aren't we fixing it? Gold and Williams are capable line backers as we saw last year. Do I think DJ was ready to play in the middle? No. So my question is why, if we knew we were going to have problems with our linebackers, did we go after Rice instead of Trotter when we have 3 other good ends? Is that the players' fault too?

                    I respect what Bates has done in the past, and I understand he's not some slop off of the streets. But I am questioning how long we will watch him fail and progressively get worse before some type of change occurs either in his coaching philosophy/scheme. I have not seen the defense improve in any facet of the game this year, and I won't believe that it's that the players don't know how to play the game.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DTownNative View Post
                      I must admit... I was hopeful but skeptical when we decided to hire Jim Bates.

                      It's already week 7, and I believe it's safe to say that much of our defensive breakdown should be attributed to Bates and his scheme:

                      He requested two strong cover corners: Bailey and Bly
                      He requested 2 big DT's in the middle: S. Adams and A. Gordan
                      He requested speed rusher DE's: newly aquired J. Moss, S. Rice, not to mention Dumervil getting it done...

                      DJ is not sufficiently fulfilling his role at MLB - Ian Gold CANNOT cover...

                      Bates has had a lot of control since FA - that is ample time to develop the defense. He has gotten what wants, and the Defense is failing...
                      Who says Bates was given everything he wanted? Did he want Gordon over Warren and Kennedy? Did he want to Warren to refuse to adapt to the scheme, basically forcing a trade or release? Did he want Kennedy to prove that he was really bad at stopping the run? Do you remember people on these boards bemoaning the prospect of Bailey having to play tight man to man coverage because he's better when he plays off the receiver?

                      I'm not sure Gordon qualifies as a massive defensive tackle. He's listed at 6'2" 312 lbs. Thomas is 6'3" 315 lbs. Burton is 6'2" 325 lbs. McKinley is 6'3" 294 lbs. I'll give you Burton as a tackle that fits into the same category as Adams as a massive tackle but what good does that do when Burton has failed to prove he can start? Adams only plays about 20 snaps per game, so they're often playing with tackles that don't fit the physical attributes that are suited for the scheme.

                      The linebackers aren't getting the job done. Do we know that Bates wanted DJ in the middle or was he stuck with DJ because of Shanahan? Do we know that Webster was the linebacker Bates wanted for the strong side or was he stuck with Webster because Holdman got hurt? Do we know that Bates wanted Gold for the weak side or was he stuck with Gold because of salary cap issues or because of Shanahan? I know that Zach Thomas isn't particularly big so DJ would seem to at least have the physical attributes to play middle linebacker in the scheme. The question is whether or not he has the football intelligence to play the position. Maybe Webster would be better off at the middle linebacker position, whether it be as the starter or the back up. Maybe Gold just needs to go.

                      We can't assume that Bates has gotten everything he wanted. Do you think he might have been disappointed when Patrick Kerney signed with the Seahawks instead of the Broncos? Just because there were a lot of changes in personnel, it doesn't mean that Bates got what he wanted. He might have gotten some of what he wanted, but I doubt he got everything he wanted.
                      My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                      You Mad Bro?
                      Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
                        And you don't blame coaching at all for not improving any of that? So really it's just that we have a bunch of sub-talented players with 4 people who have somehow fluked their way into repeat pro-bowls, and aren't smart enough to understand the genius of Jim Bates' scheme or how it works?

                        I understand we haven't been making tackles and filling gaps, and some of that responsibility certainly lies on the players' shoulders. But that begs the question of "why?" And if we know why, why aren't we fixing it? Gold and Williams are capable line backers as we saw last year. Do I think DJ was ready to play in the middle? No. So my question is why, if we knew we were going to have problems with our linebackers, did we go after Rice instead of Trotter when we have 3 other good ends? Is that the players' fault too?

                        I respect what Bates has done in the past, and I understand he's not some slop off of the streets. But I am questioning how long we will watch him fail and progressively get worse before some type of change occurs either in his coaching philosophy/scheme. I have not seen the defense improve in any facet of the game this year, and I won't believe that it's that the players don't know how to play the game.
                        When the players start executing their assignments and they still can't stop the run and keep giving up touchdowns, then I will blame the coach and his scheme. Until then, it's the players' fault.

                        What four pro bowlers are you talking about? I know of three and they're all in the secondary. I've already said that it's not about Bailey and Bly. They can only cover receivers for so long before one gets open because the front seven aren't getting pressure on the quarterback. I certainly haven't called out Lynch. Who am I forgetting? If he's in the front seven, I don't care how many pro bowls he's been to. He's part of the problem this year. If you're talking about Simeon Rice, he hasn't lived up to the hype yet. This scheme is supposed to be right up his alley. It fits his talents like a glove. The coaches blame his bad shoulder. If that's the real problem, then it really didn't do any good to sign him. It made sense to sign him given the potential to play well in the scheme if his shoulder was healed enough to play. It would seem that it wasn't though, so it turned out to be a bad deal for the Broncos.

                        I was hoping the Broncos would sign Trotter but they were apparently hell bent on giving DJ a shot at the middle linebacker position. Oh well. They made their choice. It's still DJ's fault as well as the other linebackers for not executing their assignments.
                        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                        You Mad Bro?
                        Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                          When the players start executing their assignments and they still can't stop the run and keep giving up touchdowns, then I will blame the coach and his scheme. Until then, it's the players' fault.

                          What four pro bowlers are you talking about? I know of three and they're all in the secondary. I've already said that it's not about Bailey and Bly. They can only cover receivers for so long before one gets open because the front seven aren't getting pressure on the quarterback. I certainly haven't called out Lynch. Who am I forgetting? If he's in the front seven, I don't care how many pro bowls he's been to. He's part of the problem this year. If you're talking about Simeon Rice, he hasn't lived up to the hype yet. This scheme is supposed to be right up his alley. It fits his talents like a glove. The coaches blame his bad shoulder. If that's the real problem, then it really didn't do any good to sign him. It made sense to sign him given the potential to play well in the scheme if his shoulder was healed enough to play. It would seem that it wasn't though, so it turned out to be a bad deal for the Broncos.

                          I was hoping the Broncos would sign Trotter but they were apparently hell bent on giving DJ a shot at the middle linebacker position. Oh well. They made their choice. It's still DJ's fault as well as the other linebackers for not executing their assignments.
                          Yes, Rice is the 4th pro-bowler. With Jim Bates scheme though, he doesn't want the lineman to penetrate, which is why he got rid of Warren. He wants them to hold blocks and have the linebackers fill the gaps. How you're supposed to get a pass rush in that type of scheme is beyond me, especially when faced with a 5 WR set. Second of all, it is Bates fault that we don't have a pass rush, 1 for getting rid of Warren, and 2 for not playing Moss if he wants to rush the pass. If you watched the Indi game, Moss was the only person getting anywhere near Manning, and he was at least getting pressure.

                          I'm totally with you on the linebackers though, but if they aren't filling the gaps and fitting his system the way he wants, he needs to do something else in the interim, until he gets these mythical players that are going to make him a defesive god again. I think the players must not be understanding the system which again falls on the coach. If they're as consistantly out of place as you say, then there must be some communication breakdown somewhere because this was not an issue last year, again a coaching issue. I really don't think that the players want to get embarassed like this so they aren't doing this on purpose just to buck the system.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gator Broncos View Post
                            Yes, Rice is the 4th pro-bowler. With Jim Bates scheme though, he doesn't want the lineman to penetrate, which is why he got rid of Warren. He wants them to hold blocks and have the linebackers fill the gaps. How you're supposed to get a pass rush in that type of scheme is beyond me, especially when faced with a 5 WR set. Second of all, it is Bates fault that we don't have a pass rush, 1 for getting rid of Warren, and 2 for not playing Moss if he wants to rush the pass. If you watched the Indi game, Moss was the only person getting anywhere near Manning, and he was at least getting pressure.

                            I'm totally with you on the linebackers though, but if they aren't filling the gaps and fitting his system the way he wants, he needs to do something else in the interim, until he gets these mythical players that are going to make him a defesive god again. I think the players must not be understanding the system which again falls on the coach. If they're as consistantly out of place as you say, then there must be some communication breakdown somewhere because this was not an issue last year, again a coaching issue. I really don't think that the players want to get embarassed like this so they aren't doing this on purpose just to buck the system.
                            Getting rid of Warren isn't the reason they can't get a pass rush. The pass rush is supposed to come from the defensive ends. That's why they line up wide. The tackles are supposed to occupy a gap and eat up blockers so the ends can rush the passer and the linebackers can flow to the ball. Warren had to go because he refused to be a gap stuffing block gobbler. He wants to be like Warren Sapp. That's not the kind of tackle that makes it in Bates' scheme.

                            I would like for the Broncos to pick four starters on the defensive line and let them play the entire game, minus needed rest and situational needs. Let the starters get into a rhythm. If that means starting Moss and Dumervil or Crowder, fine. If it means starting Thomas, fine. Pick four guys who can get the job done and let them go at it. Don't take them out unless they need a rest or the situation calls for it.

                            The coaches can only tell the players what to do and show them how to do it. If the players don't get it done on game day, it's their fault. If the players are doing what they're supposed to do and they're still getting beat, then it's the coaches' fault. The players aren't doing what they're supposed to do, they've even come out and said it themselves. It's the players' fault not the coaches'.
                            Last edited by broncolee; 10-18-2007, 06:58 PM.
                            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
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