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  • #16
    How Many Super Bowls have the Green Bay Packers won since we beat them? They have a hall of fame quarterback currently playing and they have had bad years such as just last year.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
      But again, what are you proving?

      A Hall of Fame QB makes a coach better?

      That's obvious, ravage, and a fact virtually no one will disagree with.

      But if you look at the coaches who have won a Super Bowl without a Hall-of-Fame QB - Gibbs, Billick, Gruden, Parcells, Flores, Cowher - we know it can be done.
      Great.. you have listed two of the greatest coaches to ever coach in comparisons... so I would say Shanahan has some nice company there.

      YES, of course teams CAN win without a HoF QB..mojo. How many playoff victories did the Ravens have BEFORE that one year? How many have they had SINCE that ONE SB win? What about the Bucs??? How many playoff victories did they have before, and how many after? HOW MANY YEARS between those Super Bowls have the Ravens had and the Bucs had? You are using abaration teams as your examples, and that doesn't make sense either.

      You want to use Gibbs as your comparison. How many OTHER coaches have won multible SBs as a HC without a franchise QB? How many years has it been since Gibbs and the Washington Redskins won their LAST super bowl? How many years has it been since the Giants won their last Super Bowl? Have they won since getting rid of Parcells? Have the Redskins won since Gibbs retired teh first time?? No?

      How many SBs did Cowher win? How long was he in Pittsburgh? Are you saying he won it WITHOUT having a franchise QB??? How many years was it between this most recent SB victory by the Steelers, and their previous one????

      The fact is, we know as a head coach without a HOF QB, Shanahan has only four playoff appearances, one playoff victory, and one divisional title. That's with 10 seasons of coaching, including his stint in Oakland. And his winning percentage? .557.
      The facts are, that Shanahan has one of the biggest winning percentages during his tenure in Denver than any other coach in the NFL. The facts are, that Shanahan has a better winning percentage, and more playoff appearances than any OTHER coach in NFL History that has lost a franchise QB. Why is that important to point out? ONly because it shows just how hard it is to build a team WITHOUT a franchise QB. Thats why you see GREAT defenses like the Ravens and the Bucs, NOT win more than one SB. They were able to compensate that ONE time.. that ONE year.. against THOSE oppenents... ONE time.

      But I continued to ask you (above) how many years between their SB victories, because we here seem to continue to believe that its been SOOOOOOO long for us. It hasn't. Its been 9 years. Despite what SOME here like to believe.. that isn't long between SB appearances.. not to mention SB victories. I'm sorry.. but its not.

      So I don't find it to be a coincidence, that OTHER coaches.. some of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL.. couldn't continue to win without their franchise QB. I also don't think its a coincidence that Bellicheck hasn't won a single thing without Brady... and don't find it a coincidence that Dungy couldn't win when in TB.

      Thats why even GREAT teams like the Cowboys, haven't been back to the SB in 12 years. Why GREAT teams like the Buffalo Bills, haven't been back to the SB in 15 years.

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      • #18
        So just for fun... since we both know we aren't going to change each others mind on this.. I put the numbers together... just for chucks and grunts:

        Buffalo Bills: the EIGHT years SINCE losing Jim Kelly after the '96 season (Levy retired in '97): are 58-70 regular season, and have 2 playoff seasons ('98, '99)... their playoff record since is 0-2 (just for the record, their 9th season they went 7-9). The Bills have had a 45.3% winning percentage since the loss of Kelly, and have had four coaches in those 9 years (Phillips, Williams, Mularkey, Jauron). Their last SB appearance was in '93 season ('94 SB)... 14 years.

        Dallas Cowboys..Aikman: (I'll have Landry/Staubach next) in the 6 seasons since losing Aikman (retired after the 2000 season).. the Cowboys are: 44-52 regular season wins and have two playoff seasons ('03, '06) and have a playoff record of 0-2. The Cowboys have a 45.8% winning percentage since the loss of Aikman, and have had 3 coaches in that six year span (Campo, Parcells, Phillips). Last SB appearance was '95 season ('96 SB)...11 seasons.

        Dallas Cowboys...Staubach/Landry: Stauback retired after the '79 season. This is the one that does beat Shanahan as far as regular season win %, and playoff appearances. In the 8 seasons after Stauback retired, Landy and the Cowboays were 75-45 regular season, and 4 playoff seasons ( '80, '81, '83, '85).. their playoff record was 3-4. with the '80 season ending in a trip to the NFC Championship Game. They had a 62.5% winning percentage. They had only 1 coach during these 8 seasons.

        Pittsburgh Steelers Bradshaw retired after the '82 season. During the 8 years following the retirement the Steelers were 63-64 regular season, and had 3 playoff seasons ('83, '84, '89) with a playoff record of 2-3. The Steelers had a 49.6% winning percentage in those 8 years. They had only 1 coach (just to let you know, their 9th season they went 7-9).

        Dolphins: Dan Marino retired after the '99 season, so this is only 7 full seasons and not 8 (although looking at their start, it may be getting worse). Since the retirement of Dan Marino, the Dolphins have a 60-52 win %, and 2 playoff seasons (2000, 2001) and have a playoff record of 1-2. In the seven seasons since the loss of Marino they have a 53.5% winning percentage. In the eleven years since the retirement of Shula, the Dolphins have had 4 different coaches (Johnson, Wannstedt, Saban, and Cameron).

        Niners Steve Young retired after the '98 season. Since the retirement of Steve Young, the Niners are 52-76 and have 2 playoff seasons ('01, '02).. their playoff record is 1-2. The Niners have a 40.6% win percentage since the loss of Young, and have had 3 coaches (Mariucci, Erickson, and Nolan).

        Denver: John Elway retired after the '98 season. In the 8 years since, the Broncos are 76-52 and have had 4 playoff seasons ('00, '03, '04, '05). Since the retirement of Elway, the Broncos have a 59.5% win percentage and a playoff record of 1-4.. with the '05 season ending in a trip to the AFC Championship Game. We've had only one coach during this span.

        The think I've learned, and it again just supports my stance.. is that the teams that kept the ONE coach... did better. The teams that kept their winning coach, succeeded more in both the regular season, and the playoffs.
        Last edited by Ravage!!!; 11-04-2007, 05:23 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
          Great.. you have listed two of the greatest coaches to ever coach in comparisons... so I would say Shanahan has some nice company there.

          YES, of course teams CAN win without a HoF QB..mojo. How many playoff victories did the Ravens have BEFORE that one year? How many have they had SINCE that ONE SB win? What about the Bucs??? How many playoff victories did they have before, and how many after? HOW MANY YEARS between those Super Bowls have the Ravens had and the Bucs had? You are using abaration teams as your examples, and that doesn't make sense either.

          You want to use Gibbs as your comparison. How many OTHER coaches have won multible SBs as a HC without a franchise QB? How many years has it been since Gibbs and the Washington Redskins won their LAST super bowl? How many years has it been since the Giants won their last Super Bowl? Have they won since getting rid of Parcells? Have the Redskins won since Gibbs retired teh first time?? No?

          How many SBs did Cowher win? How long was he in Pittsburgh? Are you saying he won it WITHOUT having a franchise QB??? How many years was it between this most recent SB victory by the Steelers, and their previous one????



          The facts are, that Shanahan has one of the biggest winning percentages during his tenure in Denver than any other coach in the NFL. The facts are, that Shanahan has a better winning percentage, and more playoff appearances than any OTHER coach in NFL History that has lost a franchise QB. Why is that important to point out? ONly because it shows just how hard it is to build a team WITHOUT a franchise QB. Thats why you see GREAT defenses like the Ravens and the Bucs, NOT win more than one SB. They were able to compensate that ONE time.. that ONE year.. against THOSE oppenents... ONE time.

          But I continued to ask you (above) how many years between their SB victories, because we here seem to continue to believe that its been SOOOOOOO long for us. It hasn't. Its been 9 years. Despite what SOME here like to believe.. that isn't long between SB appearances.. not to mention SB victories. I'm sorry.. but its not.

          So I don't find it to be a coincidence, that OTHER coaches.. some of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL.. couldn't continue to win without their franchise QB. I also don't think its a coincidence that Bellicheck hasn't won a single thing without Brady... and don't find it a coincidence that Dungy couldn't win when in TB.

          Thats why even GREAT teams like the Cowboys, haven't been back to the SB in 12 years. Why GREAT teams like the Buffalo Bills, haven't been back to the SB in 15 years.
          The problem with this argument, ravage, is neither one of us see it from the other's perspective.

          You see it as him doing a great job since Elway retired.

          I see it as proof that he won't be able to get this team over the hump without Elway.

          Neither of us will compromise and try to look at it from the other's perspective, when in reality, we're both accurate. Shanahan has done an admirable job since losing Elway. But he also hasn't had this team in position to actually make noise inthe playoffs save for one season since Elway retired. Clearly, he hasn't had the talent he had 10 years ago, but bringing in talent is his responsibility too. And right now, this team has none (at least compared to the elite teams).

          So we can continue this all day long, ravage. But in the end, we'll wind up repeating everything we've discussed numerous times. I simply feel that this team is on the verge of needing new blood and a fresh perspective from the head coach position. And I can cite several former players (many of which played here) and analysts who agree with that assessment.
          sigpic

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
            The problem with this argument, ravage, is neither one of us see it from the other's perspective.

            You see it as him doing a great job since Elway retired.

            I see it as proof that he won't be able to get this team over the hump without Elway.

            Neither of us will compromise and try to look at it from the other's perspective, when in reality, we're both accurate. Shanahan has done an admirable job since losing Elway. But he also hasn't had this team in position to actually make noise inthe playoffs save for one season since Elway retired. Clearly, he hasn't had the talent he had 10 years ago, but bringing in talent is his responsibility too. And right now, this team has none (at least compared to the elite teams).

            So we can continue this all day long, ravage. But in the end, we'll wind up repeating everything we've discussed numerous times. I simply feel that this team is on the verge of needing new blood and a fresh perspective from the head coach position. And I can cite several former players (many of which played here) and analysts who agree with that assessment.
            My only beef is with the comment that says 'he can't do it without Elway.' But there has been no proof of that... at least no MORE proof than ANY OTHER coach in NFL history that has lost their HoF QB.

            My beef is that he has a bigger winning percentage than almost every franchise in the league.. Without Elway. The teams that have the bigger winning percentages... are those WITH Manning and Brady..... the teams that weren't doing SQUAT before they got those two players. So its not a coincidence.

            Considering that Shanahan was a part of the offense EACH time that Elway went to the SB... and only coached Elway 4 years, but had 2 SB victories.. and since Shanahan was a part of the ONLY SB victory that Young had. Considering no other HC could win the SB with Elway (since those that think it was only Elway that won for shanahan).... it would seem that once he does get his franchise QB (and I think we finally do have one)... Shanahan is the VERY guy you want running the offense.

            I have no problem with people wanting to change him if thats what they want. We see how its worked for Buffalo, San Fran... GB...Dallas (looking ok in the NFC, but they too just found their franchise QB.. and went for some REALLY bad years).... I just think people are going to get what they wish for soon enough.... and will be sorry when they do.

            I DO have a problem when people make the statement that he hasn't accomplished ANYTHING since losing Elway.. and I can show you VERY clearly that he has accomplished as much as ANYONE has in NFL history in the same circumstances. Funny how people want to ignore that fact.

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            • #21
              Niners Steve Young retired after the '98 season. Since the retirement of Steve Young, the Niners are 52-76 and have 2 playoff seasons ('01, '02).. their playoff record is 1-2. The Niners have a 40.6% win percentage since the loss of Young, and have had 3 coaches (Mariucci, Erickson, and Nolan).

              So what happened after Joe Montana?....Steve Young

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              • #22
                Question for the folks who think Shanahan should not be getting any heat for the post Elway years. Because the man won two Superbowls does that mean he should not be held accountable anymore and get a free pass until he retires or chooses to leave on his own?

                It's time for a change.
                "It's okay to be a cliche....Everything under the sun has been done."

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by BurgessRudy View Post
                  So what happened after Joe Montana?....Steve Young
                  Right.. the real common scenario....

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                    I have no problem with people wanting to change him if thats what they want. We see how its worked for Buffalo, San Fran... GB...Dallas (looking ok in the NFC, but they too just found their franchise QB.. and went for some REALLY bad years).... I just think people are going to get what they wish for soon enough.... and will be sorry when they do.
                    The problem with Shanahan staying is that this situation is his doing. It would be very difficult for him to clean his own house in an impartial manner... he's too tied to what has happened. Never underestimate how powerful ego can be in these kinds of situations - Shanny may simply not be willing to admit that his choices and/or approach were wrong.

                    IMO, we probably need some fresh blood to come in and rebuild, someone who can really motivate the young players. I'm not saying that will get us to the Superbowl, but it will renew an organization which has gotten pretty stale.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Warhawk View Post
                      The problem with Shanahan staying is that this situation is his doing. It would be very difficult for him to clean his own house in an impartial manner... he's too tied to what has happened. Never underestimate how powerful ego can be in these kinds of situations - Shanny may simply not be willing to admit that his choices and/or approach were wrong.

                      IMO, we probably need some fresh blood to come in and rebuild, someone who can really motivate the young players. I'm not saying that will get us to the Superbowl, but it will renew an organization which has gotten pretty stale.
                      Ok.. but where do you see him not admitting his wrong choices? I mean he drafted a certain RB, and cut him despite taking so much flak for taking him in the first place.

                      He brought in all the Browns... went to the AFC Championship.. and moved them on when they weren't working. We used a draft pick to bring in a DL this offseason, but when he wasn't working out, he was released.

                      so is that not admitting when you make a mistake? I think shanahan brought in a bunch of offensive talent this offseason because the offense had been neglected over the last few years.

                      So who's the guy we bring in?

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                      • #26
                        BurgessRudy brings up a good point, CP to you. The Niners were able to succeed after Montana left.

                        Or how about the Pats?

                        Bill Parcells, HOF coach, went to the Super Bowl, they got rid of him, hired Carroll, who won the division and playoffs, got rid of him, found Bill Belichick. Super Bowl or bust is the Pats mentality and look where it got them. The closest thing to a modern NFL dynasty.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Theonlymember View Post
                          BurgessRudy brings up a good point, CP to you. The Niners were able to succeed after Montana left.

                          Or how about the Pats?

                          Bill Parcells, HOF coach, went to the Super Bowl, they got rid of him, hired Carroll, who won the division and playoffs, got rid of him, found Bill Belichick. Super Bowl or bust is the Pats mentality and look where it got them. The closest thing to a modern NFL dynasty.
                          ALright.. I'll reply to this. Steve Young was aquired to the Forty Niners BEFORE FA was activated in the NFL. Thus the Niners were able to afford to carry both Joe Montana and Steve Young on their roster.

                          THEN... since we have people wanting to get rid of Shanahan when he hasn't won a SB since losing Montana... I find that people here want to use the 'success' that the Niners had after losing Elway.

                          In the EIGHT years that Steve Young was the starting QB for San Fran (a bonafide HoF QB).... they did not go ONE season below ten wins.. and only had THREE seasons with less than 12 wins. Yet despite having a 95-33 record, having one of the better QBs to ever play.... they have ONE SB victory (only winning the SB once Shanahan became the OC).

                          Bill Parcells went to the SB with the Patriots... a HoF coach for sure... and at the time had Drew Bledsoe..... one of the best QBs of his era. Carrol won fewer games each year he was the HC as a Coach ( winning 10, then 9, then finished his last season at 8-8) ... and then Belicheck won only FIVE games his first year as a HC, until Brady became the starting QB. Coincidence?

                          Thanks for playin'
                          Last edited by Ravage!!!; 11-04-2007, 03:24 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                            You want me to post all the stats tht shows Shanahan in comparison to all the other coaches in NFL history that have lost a Franchise QB again?
                            Please do, that just might help gain some perspective around here.
                            SOMEBODY!!! ANYBODY!!!! GIVE ME A MILE HIGH SALUTE!!!!

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                            • #29
                              Share the blame

                              Originally posted by JayhawkBronco View Post
                              Question for the folks who think Shanahan should not be getting any heat for the post Elway years. Because the man won two Superbowls does that mean he should not be held accountable anymore and get a free pass until he retires or chooses to leave on his own?

                              It's time for a change.
                              I am a fan of Shannahan. However, as much as I like Mike, I do think that his offensive play calling isn't quite up to parr. Denver is definately missing Gary K right now.

                              Shanny should be held accountable, and I am sure that (with the organization) he is. The way Mike thinks, he is probably holding himself more accountable than anyone else is. I certainly hold him accountable.

                              I don't think that it is quite "time for a change" (at least not in head coach). There is certainly, however, a definite need for a change in play calling, players (what had Dre Bly done since he got here? And what good will Travis Henry do us serving suspension?). We need to do some serious clean up here. We need to keep a tight ship again, like back in the good ol days. I mean, this season we have had to deal with multiple instances of substance abuse, some leading to arrests (Marshall and his prospective DUI), others to prospective suspensions.... Where have all the good players gone? Its should be so easy to follow the law. Don't drink and drive, don't violate substance abuse laws/policies, don't get in ridiculous bar brawls (ref: David Kircus)- especially when doing any of the following could have an impact on your generous NFL salary.

                              Also- blame the players! You have to wonder how many plays they didn't give 110% on... How many penalties have we accumulated this season? Shannahan can't control what you, as a player, do on that play. As a player in the NFL, you have played enough football to know the rules of the game... That facemask by Dumerville today was easily avoidable- there was no way that Kitna could have gotten out of that situation without being sacked, and you didn't need to rip his helmet around backward in order to do it. We have been playing so stupid. We get downhearted- whether it be due to injuries or losses- and we play stupid football to make up for not giving our all. On Monday night, in OT, Dre Bly SLOWED DOWN before the 15 yard line after Jennings caught that bomb. Yeah- they probably would have made the FG if you had caught him, but it is worth a SHOT! It is just depressing.

                              Bottom line: everyone is to blame; Shannahan included.

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                              • #30
                                Logically:

                                1. Shanahan has had 8 years to prove he can coach a team to the Championship on his own, without HoF players at receiver, tight end, on the offensive line, quarterback and tailback. In those 8 years, with plenty of good players, Shanahan has failed.

                                2. Therefore, Shanahan has demonstrated that in the absence of Elway & Co. he cannot get the team to the championship.

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