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  • #16
    Originally posted by jazzyjeff View Post
    It's been proven we can win without both, and both can be shown the door as far as I'm concerned.
    Yeah against Kansas City...and only Kansas City.

    Comment


    • #17
      Ya, if its microfracture like Kmart or others have had, Walker would be out for at least a full season beyond this one in all likelihood. But Walker's denied that one. Only the team knows for sure.

      I posted this before on Walker, but to repost a bit here . . since everyone is talking numbers and dollars saved, and nobody seems to actually is quoting facts.

      Also note that there's a big difference in saving "bonus money" that is SALARY and saving money that is CAP. Salary matters to nobody but the player and the guy who is paying him. Cap actually affects our team and who we can sign.

      Even expecting Walker and Henry back we have an expected 16.5 million free -- more than most years.

      On Walker:

      Walker, Javon 2007 Base salary: $ 600,000 sign bonus: $ 4,000,000 other bonus: $ 100,000 total salary: $ 4,700,000 cap value: $ 2,700,000

      from here


      Details on contract: 5/8/2006: Signed a five-year, $40 million contract. 2007: $600,000 (+ $6 million option bonus + $4 million roster bonus), 2008: $2.1 million (+ $4.4 million in offseason option bonuses), 2009: $5.6 million, 2010: $5.85 million, 2011: $6.7 million, 2012: Free Agent

      (From rotoworld).


      Thus Javon's cap value next year should be a total of 4.1 million. Cutting him will not save 4.1 million since the signing bonus will accelerate as a cap hit, and we still have to sign a FA.


      For T. Henry

      Base Salary: $ 595,000 Signing Bonus: $ 6,000,000 Other Bonus: $ 100,000 Total Salary: $ 6,695,000 Cap Value: $ 1,895,000

      Contract: 3/5/2007: Signed a five-year, $22.5 million contract. The deal included an $8.5 million signing bonus and contains $12 million in total guarantees. Also included is a stipulation requiring Henry to pay back $6 million of his signing bonus if he's suspended for drugs at any point during the deal. 2007: $595,000 (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $35,000 per-game roster bonuses), 2008: $730,000 (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2009: $1.375 million (+ $6 million guaranteed-for-injury option bonus due 3/1 + $100,000 workout bonus), 2010: $2.4 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $500,000 roster bonus), 2011: $3.9 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $500,000 roster bonus), 2012: Free Agent


      In Henry's case, cutting him makes even less sense from a $ standpoint. His cap value hasn't accelerated, and will be only a few hundred k higher than this year. He likely wouldn't be getting the "injury bonuses." And the guaranteed money is so high on him that we'd likely take a bigger Cap hit by cutting him that keeping him.

      He's a good player when healthy and unless you think Hall is the end all #2 we'd still need another guy.


      Just some thoughts:

      For guys we aren't even playing this year, its amazing how much of our cap space they are. Not that we want to get rid of them, but the numbers are astounding.

      If Rod Smith -3.5 million against our cap. (this year and next both the same).
      Simeon Rice - 3 mil of our cap space.
      Tom Nalen- 3.6 mil
      Eb. Ekuban - 3.8 mil
      Ben Hamilton- 3.5 mil
      Warrik Holdman, Jarvis Moss, Nate Alexander are each about 1.5 mil of our cap.

      Of course for those grousing that Gold's contract is too bit, its in the 4.4 mil cap range.

      All are higher than Henry's 1.8-2 ish (next year) cap value. And Javon's 2-4ish (next year's) cap value is right in that range.



      The point of it all being that Javon and especially T. Henry are not huge CAP liabilities on our team. Getting rid of them at this point would likely be tougher on next years budget than helpful. Plus you'd need replacements, and both guys are quite good when healthy.

      Can they be good again? The team knows better than we do. But like I said theres already more than the normal amount of cap room left for next year, expecting them back. We have room we can free up elsewhere.

      If you want the guys cut, do it on the basis of their performance. Carping about $$ doesn't make much sense, IMO looking at the numbers. And as I said before, Shanny isn't too sentimental. If you're not performing, he'll chuck a guy, so I trust he'll do whats necessary to get the right guys on the field.
      Always a Broncos fan.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
        But do you realize how serious microfracture surgery is? Thats a surgery that may very well ruin his career for good. Do we, as a franchise, take a chance on that and give him the bonus??? I don't know that we do.
        microfracture has been known to end careers, that's how serious it is. i think if walkers knee doesnt fully heal then he will have no choice. i think his knee will keep swelling until he has it due to the lack of cartilage in his knee. as a wr it is very important to have good knees. walker depends on his speed and his route running abilities more than anything. so if does does have continuing issues with it he will basically be asking the broncos to pay him millions of dollars with only one healthy leg. so either the salary or the bonus he would have to restructure. idealy id like to see him redo the salary to help make room for players of need. if he doesnt agree then i can see the broncos releasing him over henry but only if he doesnt agree.

        henry on the other hand has been a major let down...id like to see them redo his deal too. but thats just me.
        sigpic

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ShadeofBlue View Post
          Ya, if its microfracture like Kmart or others have had, Walker would be out for at least a full season beyond this one in all likelihood. But Walker's denied that one. Only the team knows for sure.

          I posted this before on Walker, but to repost a bit here . . since everyone is talking numbers and dollars saved, and nobody seems to actually is quoting facts.

          Also note that there's a big difference in saving "bonus money" that is SALARY and saving money that is CAP. Salary matters to nobody but the player and the guy who is paying him. Cap actually affects our team and who we can sign.

          Even expecting Walker and Henry back we have an expected 16.5 million free -- more than most years.

          On Walker:

          Walker, Javon 2007 Base salary: $ 600,000 sign bonus: $ 4,000,000 other bonus: $ 100,000 total salary: $ 4,700,000 cap value: $ 2,700,000

          from here


          Details on contract: 5/8/2006: Signed a five-year, $40 million contract. 2007: $600,000 (+ $6 million option bonus + $4 million roster bonus), 2008: $2.1 million (+ $4.4 million in offseason option bonuses), 2009: $5.6 million, 2010: $5.85 million, 2011: $6.7 million, 2012: Free Agent

          (From rotoworld).


          Thus Javon's cap value next year should be a total of 4.1 million. Cutting him will not save 4.1 million since the signing bonus will accelerate as a cap hit, and we still have to sign a FA.


          For T. Henry

          Base Salary: $ 595,000 Signing Bonus: $ 6,000,000 Other Bonus: $ 100,000 Total Salary: $ 6,695,000 Cap Value: $ 1,895,000

          Contract: 3/5/2007: Signed a five-year, $22.5 million contract. The deal included an $8.5 million signing bonus and contains $12 million in total guarantees. Also included is a stipulation requiring Henry to pay back $6 million of his signing bonus if he's suspended for drugs at any point during the deal. 2007: $595,000 (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $35,000 per-game roster bonuses), 2008: $730,000 (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2009: $1.375 million (+ $6 million guaranteed-for-injury option bonus due 3/1 + $100,000 workout bonus), 2010: $2.4 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $500,000 roster bonus), 2011: $3.9 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus + $500,000 roster bonus), 2012: Free Agent


          In Henry's case, cutting him makes even less sense from a $ standpoint. His cap value hasn't accelerated, and will be only a few hundred k higher than this year. He likely wouldn't be getting the "injury bonuses." And the guaranteed money is so high on him that we'd likely take a bigger Cap hit by cutting him that keeping him.

          He's a good player when healthy and unless you think Hall is the end all #2 we'd still need another guy.


          Just some thoughts:

          For guys we aren't even playing this year, its amazing how much of our cap space they are. Not that we want to get rid of them, but the numbers are astounding.

          If Rod Smith -3.5 million against our cap. (this year and next both the same).
          Simeon Rice - 3 mil of our cap space.
          Tom Nalen- 3.6 mil
          Eb. Ekuban - 3.8 mil
          Ben Hamilton- 3.5 mil
          Warrik Holdman, Jarvis Moss, Nate Alexander are each about 1.5 mil of our cap.

          Of course for those grousing that Gold's contract is too bit, its in the 4.4 mil cap range.

          All are higher than Henry's 1.8-2 ish (next year) cap value. And Javon's 2-4ish (next year's) cap value is right in that range.



          The point of it all being that Javon and especially T. Henry are not huge CAP liabilities on our team. Getting rid of them at this point would likely be tougher on next years budget than helpful. Plus you'd need replacements, and both guys are quite good when healthy.

          Can they be good again? The team knows better than we do. But like I said theres already more than the normal amount of cap room left for next year, expecting them back. We have room we can free up elsewhere.

          If you want the guys cut, do it on the basis of their performance. Carping about $$ doesn't make much sense, IMO looking at the numbers. And as I said before, Shanny isn't too sentimental. If you're not performing, he'll chuck a guy, so I trust he'll do whats necessary to get the right guys on the field.
          I'm not a cap expert. So I can't really comment on the figures you posted.

          However, I trust the words of Jim Armstrong and especially Adam Schefter. Both stated as of yesterday that cutting Javon and Travis in the offseason will save us money against the cap for next season, but if Denver keeps them, they're liable for their contracts.

          Besides, there are other ways to get rid of players other than outright cutting them. It's not impossible to think that Denver would trade Henry and/or Walker, even for a 4th or 5th round pick, if it will unload their salaries.
          sigpic

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          • #20
            Based on Javon's track record, it does not surprise me at all that he has told the media he is not willing to renegotiate his contract. It seems to me that Javon is all about him. His performance does not warrant his contract, I know that he has been injured and those things happen. But to be so pig headed is absurd. I like the upside that Javon brings when he's healthy but he has not lived up to the expectations due to his bum knee.

            He looked perfectly fine last night, but it didn't appear as if Cutler was even looking his way. The announcers blamed Jay for a poor throw over the middle to Walker, when it looked as if Javon had a play on the ball. Javon has made that catch time and time again in Green Bay. I personally didn't think it was a bad throw, Jay was trying to make a play and Javon didn't come down with it as he has in the past.

            I would hate to be the GM and the coaching staff in the off season. They have a lot of tough decisions on who stays and who goes, especially with Javon and Travis. We have been PLAGUED with injuries this season, let's just hope for the players to recover, have a good off season and a productive draft. We have the talent to be a Super Bowl contender but it's going to take a little luck and some leeway from our current players in the off season.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Keep Receiver Trio

              Originally posted by VADER72 View Post
              Wondering what you guys thought about the off season. I almost can see Henry gone this off season, but Walker I'm on the fence with. I love the guy and can't imagine the weapons for Cutler with Marshall and Walker has his primarys but makes me wonder about the extention of Stokley and if Walker and his knee are expendable now. Plus his salary.
              The Broncos have not had a great receiver duo since Rod Smith & Eddie Mac. If Cutler has Marshall, Walker, Stockley, plus the tight ends the offense should be much improved. Plus Walker had done extremely well prior to his injury.

              Comment


              • #22
                Walker is not a bust. Travis Henry, in hindsight, was a horrible FA signing...but we are known for doing that. I was so excited at beginning of offseason when we were in the mix to trade for Magahee, I mean I was more for drafting a big time back, but I mean why Henry. Never been a fan and probally never will. As for Walker, the guy has been through alot. Next year we got marshall, walker, and Stokely....thats nice.
                New England Patriots GM

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                • #23
                  Travis Henry we can do without. He has a crap attitude, doesnt put up better numbers than the other 2 who are rookies. Although the other 2 backs are the same he cant stay healthy, he need to leave denver.

                  Walker would be painful to lose and you gotta wonder who would fill his spot if he left.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    However, I trust the words of Jim Armstrong and especially Adam Schefter. Both stated as of yesterday that cutting Javon and Travis in the offseason will save us money against the cap for next season, but if Denver keeps them, they're liable for their contracts.

                    Besides, there are other ways to get rid of players other than outright cutting them. It's not impossible to think that Denver would trade Henry and/or Walker, even for a 4th or 5th round pick, if it will unload their salaries.

                    I believe that if we cut before next season we take the cap hits in the 09 season primarily.

                    Other than trying to inject some ##'s into the discussion I guess I was mostly trying to say that there's no financial reason that we need to unload their salaries. We have plenty of money to keep everyone and sign some good FA's as well as any draft picks we pick up.

                    Heck, just the guys coming back off of injured reserve will be the equivalent of getting $30 million worth (capwise) of players we didn't have available this year. A lot our highest payed guys have been sidelined.

                    I think both of the guys are good players when they are healthy. Henry was on pace for 1800 yards and was leagues leading rusher early in the year before injuries both to Henry and our O line (Nalen). Javon is a deep threat with over 1k yards last year and was an excellent player for us. Sure we might be able to get lucky in the draft or the FA market but unless either guy is a lot more banged up that the team is letting on, I figure they are both worth the money and relative risk on the payroll.


                    Who knows though? Shanny always has a surprise signing and release or five every year. I just think that our biggest needs are in the trenches, so shuffling around and drafting RBs and WR's isn't something I really need to see.
                    Always a Broncos fan.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jazzyjeff View Post
                      Both Henry and Walker have been huge busts. Henry has been hurt more than healthy and seems to get hurt every time he is touched. Plus he is being out performed by Selvin Young. Walker is never on the field and is a constant complainer. It's been proven we can win without both, and both can be shown the door as far as I'm concerned. They paid big money for both and should expect good numbers for their pay. Hard to put up big numbers from the sideline.
                      How has Walker been a bust?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by VADER72 View Post
                        Wondering what you guys thought about the off season. I almost can see Henry gone this off season, but Walker I'm on the fence with. I love the guy and can't imagine the weapons for Cutler with Marshall and Walker has his primarys but makes me wonder about the extention of Stokley and if Walker and his knee are expendable now. Plus his salary.
                        Rumors are both players are on the bubble. It has been mentioned on several sport shows and commentators. Walker has done little even with the opportunities he has too many dropped passes and no excuse when he has been Cutler's number one target through the end of the season last year; that and the team feels his current stint of injuries are too much. Henry on the other hand is more for performance then his injuries, this is what hinders Shanahan from spending top dollar on running backs! He is hot, injured, nearly suspended, wins his appeal, is healthy and comes out as though he forgot the system and how to play. I personally think both players are in trouble. I was hoping Javon would step up and be a weapon for Cutler, but signs are that it will not happen. If I had a say in who we keep it would be Walker over Henry...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I really hope they find a way to keep both......

                          I'm not drinking the Selvin Young Kool-Aid just yet, if he can come back next year with significant improvements in strength, then he has a chance to be more than a change-of-pace back. One of the biggest problems the Broncos are having right now is goal line offense, at the moment Young offers next to nothing here.

                          Because at the moment he has Poorti$' size and Glyn Milburn's power......

                          And before you wish Walker gone, remember how hard it's been for the Broncos to find competent WR's before Walker and Marshall arrived. A 90% Walker is better than a 100% Lelie.

                          Keep in mind, I'm not a huge fan of either Walker or Henry, but it's been such a F'ed up year that maybe it's best to let the dust settle before we start another Extreme Makeover Denver Broncos Edition......

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            either way

                            Travis henry i wouldnt mind letting go, but i feel like he hasn't been able to recover from his injury and he hasnt been able to finish games most of the time. If we kept Henry i wouldnt mind it either because of the reason i just stated. Walker hasnt really been able to start at a 100 percent yet so i wouldnt mind keeping him either. So the only way im deciding this is by the cap because both are great players, so im saying keep henry and release Walker because Marshall is becoming a great force, but then i think we should look at a wide receiver in either the draft or free agency to fill in the spot.

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                            • #29
                              hmmmm...

                              If the broncos were to get rid of Henry or Walker....I would say keep Walker. I would not be suprised if Henry or Walker get traded so the broncos can move up in the Draft, or traded for a decent player on Defense in the Nfl.

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                              • #30
                                Actually Young has shown on a play per play basis that he is much better than Henry (FO) and the middle of our line is to blame more than anything for our lack of goal line power this year. We rank near dead last in the power situations (3rd and short 4th an short... and then goal line)
                                Bronco fan from Packer Land.
                                Lefty Writer on The Sports Show with Woody Paige and Les Shapiro
                                Tweet me @JoRo_5551

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