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  • Elway/Reeves = Cutler/Shanahan?

    Devils Advocate,

    Just a thought, is it possible that with Mikes playcalling, he's becoming the Dan Reeves for Jay Cutler?

    Elway at times was winning despite of Reeves, not thanks to Reeves. John had ups and downs, but didnt really flurish until a new coach came in with another prospective of the game.

    Could this be a situation in the making?

    Discuss.
    Last edited by coco; 12-19-2007, 01:46 AM.
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  • #2
    outcoached

    shanny has been getting outcoached how is it B.Mars average 6touches in 1st half of games and only 3 in second half of games. other coaches out adjust us at halftime.

    Comment


    • #3
      While it's tempting to throw the ball because we have Cutler at the helm, we have to stick to what we do best and that's run it down people's throats. I think this is the only problem Shanny is having, he knows he needs to run but he's trying to get Cutler firing it all over the field probably because it's just too tempting to be honest and I can see why.

      Sorry, you can not add yourself to your own ignore list.

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't think Shanny is the problem

        Originally posted by champ elway View Post
        shanny has been getting outcoached how is it B.Mars average 6touches in 1st half of games and only 3 in second half of games. other coaches out adjust us at halftime.
        I see the playcalling being done by Heimerdinger. Our sporadic offensive problems actually started last year, Dingers first season with the Broncos since coming back, and Dinger was calling the plays. Kubiak had left for Houston and our offense sputtered. Sure we got more yards at the end of the season with Cutler than with Plummer and our younger players finally catching on to the speed of the game, but the playcalling was as much the problem as the execution early on.

        Also, Shanny isn't being "outcoached" if the players aren't executing, if receivers are dropping passes, if defenders aren't making tackles etc. I see more of a problem right now with players executing rather than problems with being outcoached.

        However, Shanahan will take the blame for not getting the players prepared, as that is what the boss does. In the end though, when someone hits an opposing runner but makes no effort to wrap him up, that's not the coaches fault, but the players.
        You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!sigpic

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        • #5
          Yea all the Broncos did under Reeves was go to 3 SB in 4yrs and in a six year span had 5 ten win seasons.

          Jeeeh I hope Shanahan isnt that way with Cutler

          I like Dan Reeves but Mike Shanahan he is not :nono:

          Mike Shanahan is one of the best play calling offensive minded coaches we have seen in last 2O years.

          The game changes Reeves was a great coach for that era.

          I like the Shanahan/Cutler duo I could only pray for it to be as good as Shanahan/Elway duo.


          Shanahan has got to get the Defense better before he worries about the offense

          :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

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          • #6
            Quarterback 101

            When you dont have a running game they come at you. Look at Houston and Dallas in the preaseason. If a team shuts down the run then they jail break you. Cutler was sacked five times because we could not run the ball and our line could not contain the rush.

            Cutler has even said this. After the KC game when we were running the ball so good he said it made his life easy. It is pick and choose who you want to throw too.

            Kubes new if he could shut down the run game he could pressure Cutler and with no time to throw it is bad.

            What makes me sick is that Sage had all day back there to throw. Watch Tom Brady I have seen him back there for 5 seconds almost each play!!

            It ALL Starts with the big boys up front.



            ----------------------------------------------
            I work at Vanderbilt University

            Where Jay Graduated!


            I tell you I love Elway! He was my hero growing up. I loved the way he threw the ball with velocity! I love that in a QB. This is why I am a Cutlerfan!!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by cutlerfan View Post
              When you dont have a running game they come at you. Look at Houston and Dallas in the preaseason. If a team shuts down the run then they jail break you. Cutler was sacked five times because we could not run the ball and our line could not contain the rush.
              Very good post- I think some people are missing this point. Yet another reason why Daniel Graham is so important to our team. We lose that dominant blocker and the runblocking and pass protection go south.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
                Yea all the Broncos did under Reeves was go to 3 SB in 4yrs and in a six year span had 5 ten win seasons.

                Jeeeh I hope Shanahan isnt that way with Cutler

                I like Dan Reeves but Mike Shanahan he is not :nono:

                Mike Shanahan is one of the best play calling offensive minded coaches we have seen in last 2O years.

                The game changes Reeves was a great coach for that era.

                I like the Shanahan/Cutler duo I could only pray for it to be as good as Shanahan/Elway duo.


                Shanahan has got to get the Defense better before he worries about the offense

                True, but alot of people think that Elway carried his teams and actually won DESPITE of Reeves,

                People chime in
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by coco View Post
                  True, but alot of people think that Elway carried his teams and actually won DESPITE of Reeves,

                  People chime in
                  In fairness, the Broncos had some pretty great defenses during those years, too.

                  We had virtually no talent offensively, besides Elway, of course. But our defense was one of the best in the league during the Reeves years.
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    I think you guys are funny.

                    We have a 1st year starter, and a coach that took PLUMMER to the AFC CHampionship game..yet its Shanahan that is somehow "handcuffing" Cutler.

                    We have a first year starting WR that had to step up and be the #1 to our injured WR. We have no real running game established due to several hurt OL, and a DL that basically keeps us in a position to pass the entire second half.

                    Just so you know,its VERY easy to play defense that has been regulated to pass only. Its not that we are "out coached with the second half adjustments.. which btw.. is the absolute LAMEST thing anyone can say, because its total bunk...

                    Teams are able to take Marshall out of the game plan, especially when the other WR, Walker, isn't healthy enough to get open and the run game can't seem to get going.

                    But Shanahan, already... is somehow handcuffing Jay.... DESPITE.... and get this please....DESPITE the stats showing that Cutler is already surpassing almost all the ELITE QBs in the league during his first season... Shanahan is holding him back.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                      I think you guys are funny.

                      We have a 1st year starter, and a coach that took PLUMMER to the AFC CHampionship game..yet its Shanahan that is somehow "handcuffing" Cutler.

                      We have a first year starting WR that had to step up and be the #1 to our injured WR. We have no real running game established due to several hurt OL, and a DL that basically keeps us in a position to pass the entire second half.

                      Just so you know,its VERY easy to play defense that has been regulated to pass only. Its not that we are "out coached with the second half adjustments.. which btw.. is the absolute LAMEST thing anyone can say, because its total bunk...

                      Teams are able to take Marshall out of the game plan, especially when the other WR, Walker, isn't healthy enough to get open and the run game can't seem to get going.

                      But Shanahan, already... is somehow handcuffing Jay.... DESPITE.... and get this please....DESPITE the stats showing that Cutler is already surpassing almost all the ELITE QBs in the league during his first season... Shanahan is holding him back.
                      How do you know we're not getting outcoached, especially in the 2nd half?

                      Are you on the Broncos sidelines to document their adjustments? Are you on the opposing team's sideliens to document their adjustments? Do you break down game film 12 hours a day and analyze every single snap to decipher what exactly is going wrong with this team at various points in the game?

                      As quick as some may be to make statements that Shanahan is being outcoached, you're just as quick to debunk them, depsite the fact that you have ZERO NFL experience besides what the rest of us here have - which is sitting in front of the TV and watching the games on Sunday as they happen. You don't know anymore than anyone else here, ravage, so don't claim that their OPINIONS on the matter are bunk just because you have a superiority complex and think you know more than everyone else here. Don't you think coaching is an issue when Dominique Foxworth makes a statement that the things they're doing on defense now is nothing like what they practiced in training camp?
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                        How do you know we're not getting outcoached, especially in the 2nd half?

                        Are you on the Broncos sidelines to document their adjustments? Are you on the opposing team's sideliens to document their adjustments? Do you break down game film 12 hours a day and analyze every single snap to decipher what exactly is going wrong with this team at various points in the game?

                        As quick as some may be to make statements that Shanahan is being outcoached, you're just as quick to debunk them, depsite the fact that you have ZERO NFL experience besides what the rest of us here have - which is sitting in front of the TV and watching the games on Sunday as they happen. You don't know anymore than anyone else here, ravage, so don't claim that their OPINIONS on the matter are bunk just because you have a superiority complex and think you know more than everyone else here. Don't you think coaching is an issue when Dominique Foxworth makes a statement that the things they're doing on defense now is nothing like what they practiced in training camp?
                        The biggest mistake, is that people think there are a TON of adjustments at halftimes. There aren't. You spend all offseason, all year, and every week working on the offense. You work specific ideas and specific game plans (using the offense you have been practicing all season long) to impliment DURING the game because you have studied the game tapes to develop and derive a way to attack what you see they have been doing. You may make 'small changes' after you see how their DE's are taking away a certain hole, rollout, or if they are crashing down. You may see a new pattern on when they are bringing their outside LBs, of if they drop the safety to cover the weakside 3zone. But you don't just CHANGE everything. You don't just STOP what you have been doing and practicing, and attempt to change your offense (or defense) in the 10 minute halftime.

                        Listen to Phil Simms, Steve Young, and some of the others describe how they would be in the locker room during some of the biggest games of their lives, when down in points at Half time, and they take a short nap in the locker room at half. Phil talked about doing this at the Super Bowl. They came out the second half and just executed what they had been practicing. He goes on to explain how everyone talked about all the "half time adjustments" (he uses the finger thing as he says "half time adjustment)... because they started executing what they knew. But the fact is, there isn't many changes. You stick with what you know. You stick with what you practice. You stick with what you have been working on ALLL year.

                        If you want to count a coach that says " hey johnny, they are thowing the crack-back block on their strong side set with jenkins in the slot" an adjustment.. great.

                        But most of the time, its the individual player that makes the adjustments. When you are sitting on a corner, and you see the same play developing that beat you in the first half, instead of biting on that hitch step, you sit just a bit longer and ride his hip on his out route. Was that something the DC changed at halftime? No. But it was an adjustment made by the player. Same thing happens with LBs, safeties, QBs, and RBs. Its not the adjustments by the coaches that have changed, but the change in the players.

                        If a WR reads a zone coverage the first time during the game, but was tricked..he may recognize it better the second time when running the same play, or against the same defense. Same with the QB. He may not have recognized it the first time, but... he did the second. Not an adjustment by the coaches.

                        And of course the other team, and other players are doing the same thing.

                        Now can a DC say "ok, they are isolating our SS by moving the FB to the strong side"..and deciding to call different defensive formations to try and eliminate that... sure. But that happens during the game as much as 'adjustments' during halftime. Thats a call from observation rather than 'adjusting' what the players are doing, or the games strategy.

                        Like you said mojo. They break down and analyze game film and game tape hours upon hours at a time. Teams can't just change the BASIS of what they do in a week. That goes for the Broncos, as well as those we play. Meaning they break down the tapes to find the weakness and try to find 'patterns'.... but that doesn't mean the other team is changing what they do each week. It means they may work on their weaknesses, or disguising certain blitzes better. Figuring out our patterns, and when the best time to throw those blitzes. So knowing they study these HOURS and HOURS of game film, why do we think there can be so many changes in a 10 minute half time?

                        But then.. I guess that maybe the definition (for lack of a better word if you will) of adjustments??? I dont' know. But I DO know, that the EASIEST thing to blame on the lack of execution on the field, is the "half time adjustments." Thats the first things people try to point out, as if its a fad.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                          Its not that we are "out coached with the second half adjustments.. which btw.. is the absolute LAMEST thing anyone can say, because its total bunk...
                          Ravage, I've come to expect more from you than this. Calling someone's opinion "lame" and "bunk" without backing it up is a bit weak. I suppose from now on, whenever we disagree (which is often enough), I should just call you clueless, post a dismissive emoticon, and leave it at that. (<--dismissive emoticon)
                          Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                          Team Tebow #108

                          Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                            Ravage, I've come to expect more from you than this. Calling someone's opinion "lame" and "bunk" without backing it up is a bit weak. I suppose from now on, whenever we disagree (which is often enough), I should just call you clueless, post a dismissive emoticon, and leave it at that. (<--dismissive emoticon)
                            I intentionally did not point out a single poster.. and was referring to posts in GENERAL that try to use the "halftime adjustments" as an excuse. As I was just saying to mojo, that the halftime adjustments is like the... "red-headed step child"... that gets abused and blamed for everything.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                              The biggest mistake, is that people think there are a TON of adjustments at halftimes. There aren't. You spend all offseason, all year, and every week working on the offense. You work specific ideas and specific game plans (using the offense you have been practicing all season long) to impliment DURING the game because you have studied the game tapes to develop and derive a way to attack what you see they have been doing. You may make 'small changes' after you see how their DE's are taking away a certain hole, rollout, or if they are crashing down. You may see a new pattern on when they are bringing their outside LBs, of if they drop the safety to cover the weakside 3zone. But you don't just CHANGE everything. You don't just STOP what you have been doing and practicing, and attempt to change your offense (or defense) in the 10 minute halftime.

                              Listen to Phil Simms, Steve Young, and some of the others describe how they would be in the locker room during some of the biggest games of their lives, when down in points at Half time, and they take a short nap in the locker room at half. Phil talked about doing this at the Super Bowl. They came out the second half and just executed what they had been practicing. He goes on to explain how everyone talked about all the "half time adjustments" (he uses the finger thing as he says "half time adjustment)... because they started executing what they knew. But the fact is, there isn't many changes. You stick with what you know. You stick with what you practice. You stick with what you have been working on ALLL year.

                              If you want to count a coach that says " hey johnny, they are thowing the crack-back block on their strong side set with jenkins in the slot" an adjustment.. great.

                              But most of the time, its the individual player that makes the adjustments. When you are sitting on a corner, and you see the same play developing that beat you in the first half, instead of biting on that hitch step, you sit just a bit longer and ride his hip on his out route. Was that something the DC changed at halftime? No. But it was an adjustment made by the player. Same thing happens with LBs, safeties, QBs, and RBs. Its not the adjustments by the coaches that have changed, but the change in the players.

                              If a WR reads a zone coverage the first time during the game, but was tricked..he may recognize it better the second time when running the same play, or against the same defense. Same with the QB. He may not have recognized it the first time, but... he did the second. Not an adjustment by the coaches.

                              And of course the other team, and other players are doing the same thing.

                              Now can a DC say "ok, they are isolating our SS by moving the FB to the strong side"..and deciding to call different defensive formations to try and eliminate that... sure. But that happens during the game as much as 'adjustments' during halftime. Thats a call from observation rather than 'adjusting' what the players are doing, or the games strategy.

                              Like you said mojo. They break down and analyze game film and game tape hours upon hours at a time. Teams can't just change the BASIS of what they do in a week. That goes for the Broncos, as well as those we play. Meaning they break down the tapes to find the weakness and try to find 'patterns'.... but that doesn't mean the other team is changing what they do each week. It means they may work on their weaknesses, or disguising certain blitzes better. Figuring out our patterns, and when the best time to throw those blitzes. So knowing they study these HOURS and HOURS of game film, why do we think there can be so many changes in a 10 minute half time?

                              But then.. I guess that maybe the definition (for lack of a better word if you will) of adjustments??? I dont' know. But I DO know, that the EASIEST thing to blame on the lack of execution on the field, is the "half time adjustments." Thats the first things people try to point out, as if its a fad.
                              So when coaches say "we need to make some adjustments in the second half" during their halftime interviews, they're just blowing smoke up our a$$es?

                              I've watched football for 20+ years, and most teams most certainly make halftime adjustments. That said, the Broncos aren't one of those teams, and haven't been for the last...14 or so years (maybe that's warped your perceptions a bit). That's why we've always been the team that's leading at halftime, only to lose the game in the end (or at least let a team close the gap). Even when were good that was a problem.
                              Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                              Team Tebow #108

                              Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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