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Elway/Reeves = Cutler/Shanahan?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
    So when coaches say "we need to make some adjustments in the second half" during their halftime interviews, they're just blowing smoke up our a$$es?

    I've watched football for 20+ years, and most teams most certainly make halftime adjustments. That said, the Broncos aren't one of those teams, and haven't been for the last...14 or so years (maybe that's warped your perceptions a bit). That's why we've always been the team that's leading at halftime, only to lose the game in the end (or at least let a team close the gap). Even when were good that was a problem.
    ok... gee.. I wonder why you picked around the '14 year' mark. I'm sure it wouldn't be your down perception/opinion of Shanahan.

    Tell me what kind of adjustments are made by the other teams that we aren't? Perhaps I'm just mis-speaking, not being able to express myself, or... maybe I'm just completely out of left field. What kind of adjustments do YOU think that all the other teams are doing??

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
      The biggest mistake, is that people think there are a TON of adjustments at halftimes. There aren't. You spend all offseason, all year, and every week working on the offense. You work specific ideas and specific game plans (using the offense you have been practicing all season long) to impliment DURING the game because you have studied the game tapes to develop and derive a way to attack what you see they have been doing. You may make 'small changes' after you see how their DE's are taking away a certain hole, rollout, or if they are crashing down. You may see a new pattern on when they are bringing their outside LBs, of if they drop the safety to cover the weakside 3zone. But you don't just CHANGE everything. You don't just STOP what you have been doing and practicing, and attempt to change your offense (or defense) in the 10 minute halftime.

      Listen to Phil Simms, Steve Young, and some of the others describe how they would be in the locker room during some of the biggest games of their lives, when down in points at Half time, and they take a short nap in the locker room at half. Phil talked about doing this at the Super Bowl. They came out the second half and just executed what they had been practicing. He goes on to explain how everyone talked about all the "half time adjustments" (he uses the finger thing as he says "half time adjustment)... because they started executing what they knew. But the fact is, there isn't many changes. You stick with what you know. You stick with what you practice. You stick with what you have been working on ALLL year.

      If you want to count a coach that says " hey johnny, they are thowing the crack-back block on their strong side set with jenkins in the slot" an adjustment.. great.

      But most of the time, its the individual player that makes the adjustments. When you are sitting on a corner, and you see the same play developing that beat you in the first half, instead of biting on that hitch step, you sit just a bit longer and ride his hip on his out route. Was that something the DC changed at halftime? No. But it was an adjustment made by the player. Same thing happens with LBs, safeties, QBs, and RBs. Its not the adjustments by the coaches that have changed, but the change in the players.

      If a WR reads a zone coverage the first time during the game, but was tricked..he may recognize it better the second time when running the same play, or against the same defense. Same with the QB. He may not have recognized it the first time, but... he did the second. Not an adjustment by the coaches.

      And of course the other team, and other players are doing the same thing.

      Now can a DC say "ok, they are isolating our SS by moving the FB to the strong side"..and deciding to call different defensive formations to try and eliminate that... sure. But that happens during the game as much as 'adjustments' during halftime. Thats a call from observation rather than 'adjusting' what the players are doing, or the games strategy.

      Like you said mojo. They break down and analyze game film and game tape hours upon hours at a time. Teams can't just change the BASIS of what they do in a week. That goes for the Broncos, as well as those we play. Meaning they break down the tapes to find the weakness and try to find 'patterns'.... but that doesn't mean the other team is changing what they do each week. It means they may work on their weaknesses, or disguising certain blitzes better. Figuring out our patterns, and when the best time to throw those blitzes. So knowing they study these HOURS and HOURS of game film, why do we think there can be so many changes in a 10 minute half time?

      But then.. I guess that maybe the definition (for lack of a better word if you will) of adjustments??? I dont' know. But I DO know, that the EASIEST thing to blame on the lack of execution on the field, is the "half time adjustments." Thats the first things people try to point out, as if its a fad.
      I don't think anyone here is saying there's a TON of halftime adjustments made by a team. I think people are saying that the Broncos aren't doing the little things during halftime to account for things that are obvious to them in the first half. Again, none of us can make an accurate determination one way or another, unless someone here wants to claim to work for the Broncos. But most of the adjustments made at the half aren't done with the players, ravage, in my opinion. Most of it's done with the coaching staff. If the first half, the defense isn't getting pressure on the quarterback with the front four, the defensive coaches may decide to bring in more blitzes or stunt packages. If the opposing defense is working a mostly Cover 2, the offensive coaches may decide in the 2nd half to work a lot more slant routes or screen passes. Sure, individual players can make adjustments. But I don't think that's necessarily limited to halftime adjustments. Coaches, however, are scattered across the sideline and in the coaches box, while trying to wrangle 50+ players and get them on the same page, while at the same time, communicating with one another about what they see and their suggestions on what to do. This can't possibly happen all in the first half, so the halftime communications between players and coaches and coaches and coaches and players and players is crucial.

      As far as Phil Simms and Steve Young...it's easy to fall asleep during halftime when you play for the teams and coaches those guys played for. However, I've heard Peyton Manning and John Elway state at various points that they were/are always with the coaches during halftime discussing adjustments. In fact, the Colts have repeatedly been described as the best 2nd half team in football, and when asked, Tony Dungy stated that they like to gauge the opposing team in the first half, and make adjustments in the second half to take advantage of the weaknesses they see.
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      • #18
        I read the thread and thought to myself "this sounds a lot like Coco." Then I read the author's name. Heh.


        My adopted Bronco is Chris Kuper. Huzzah!

        I am the raid leader for this World of Warcraft guild. Yay us!

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        • #19
          Elway/ Reeves Cutler/shanahan

          Originally posted by coco View Post
          Devils Advocate,

          Just a thought, is it possible that with Mikes playcalling, he's becoming the Dan Reeves for Jay Cutler?

          Elway at times was winning despite of Reeves, not thanks to Reeves. John had ups and downs, but didnt really flurish until a new coach came in with another prospective of the game.

          Could this be a situation in the making?

          Discuss.
          Danny Reeves did an excellant job developing john elway into a top flight nfl QB, danny is tough hard nosed and old school.SHANAHAN DID NOT DEVELOP ELWAY !!!!! reeves did.Cutler is shanahan's first attempt at developing a top flite nfl qb from the ground up!!! HOWEVER CUTLER WILL NEVER GET A SUPER BOWL RING BECAUSE OF SHANAHANS POOR ABILITY AT EVUALATING TALENT. he makes too many mistakes. CUTLER WILL GET THE SB RING WITH A NEW COACH not with shanahan !!!!!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by coco View Post

            Elway at times was winning despite of Reeves, not thanks to Reeves. John had ups and downs, but didnt really flurish until a new coach came in with another prospective of the game.

            Could this be a situation in the making?

            Discuss.

            Compare Elways first 19 games under Reeves to Cutlers under Shannys. Stats should be in Jays favor.
            The Game Day Thread: Year 17 in progress!!! sigpic

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Elway View Post
              Compare Elways first 19 games under Reeves to Cutlers under Shannys. Stats should be in Jays favor.
              Two totally different eras of football. And Elway didn't have a Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Travis Henry, or Javon Walker. Granted, some of those guys haven't been healthy. But Elway played with guys on offense that would barely make the practice squad on most other teams.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                Two totally different eras of football. And Elway didn't have a Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Travis Henry, or Javon Walker. Granted, some of those guys haven't been healthy. But Elway played with guys on offense that would barely make the practice squad on most other teams.
                I don't think Elway meant stats.

                He meant game tape on both. Looking off receivers, check downs, throwing motion, release of the football, touch passes vs. bullet passes, ect.

                Personally, Cutler is looking more refined sooner. Similar characteristics in both throwing motion with power and size with mobility. That's the point I think Elway was trying to point out.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by hardcorebronco View Post
                  I don't think Elway meant stats.

                  He meant game tape on both. Looking off receivers, check downs, throwing motion, release of the football, touch passes vs. bullet passes, ect.

                  Personally, Cutler is looking more refined sooner. Similar characteristics in both throwing motion with power and size with mobility. That's the point I think Elway was trying to point out.
                  But in today's era of football, quarterbacks develop at a significantly faster rate than they did 25 years ago when Elway first started. The game today is specifically designed for the passing game to succeed.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                    ok... gee.. I wonder why you picked around the '14 year' mark. I'm sure it wouldn't be your down perception/opinion of Shanahan.

                    Tell me what kind of adjustments are made by the other teams that we aren't? Perhaps I'm just mis-speaking, not being able to express myself, or... maybe I'm just completely out of left field. What kind of adjustments do YOU think that all the other teams are doing??
                    Throughout the years, many teams have come out in the second half of games and plain mauled us, or at least played a lot better (the leading example being the Colts who we usually are competitive with until the second half). Now perhaps that pattern is just coincidental, and all those cases are teams simply executing better. Personally, I tend to think that such a pattern of events indicates other teams adjusting at halftime, and our inability to adjust to their adjustments.
                    Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                    Team Tebow #108

                    Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PatrickdaDookie View Post
                      I read the thread and thought to myself "this sounds a lot like Coco." Then I read the author's name. Heh.
                      How about you make an actual contribution to the thread, I am asking an honest question.

                      I feel the same way as another poster, Cutler will win a SB, but not with Shanahan, it will be with his next coach, although I really wish I am wrong.
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                      • #26
                        You guys can't compare stats. Football was way different in the 90s and the 80s than it is today.

                        Back in the 80s and 90s, a QB who had a 60% completion avg was considered very elite, and the league was around 54-57%. Now, elite QBs are at least 65%, with the top QBs going 68-72%. Why? More rules that are like "roughing the passer" or "pass interference" or "illegal contact"

                        So just because Elway has had very average stats (79.2 career passer rating), doesn't mean he wasn't a good QB? Elway has never had a season over 100 passer rating, or let alone 90.

                        So don't compare the stats and jump to the conclusion Cutler is better. Cutler is good, but he still has to prove himself. And i truly expect him to become a 100+ passer rating QB every season soon like Manning or Brady.

                        But it isn't fair to Elway to compare his stats to Cutler.
                        The Valiant History of the AFC West (Except for the Chargers):

                        Denver Broncos: 2x World Champions. 6x AFC Champions. Overall Record: (.532)
                        Oakland Raiders: 3x World Champions. 5x AFC Champions. Overall Record: (.590)
                        Kansas City Chiefs: 1x World Champions. 2x AFC Champions. Overall Record: (.528)
                        San Diego Chargers: NEVER BEEN WORLD CHAMPIONS. 1x AFC Champions. Overall Record: (.493)
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                        • #27
                          Inclined to agree with Ravage.

                          I agree with Ravage on his thoughts that 2nd half adjustments are a farce, in reality they are.

                          Before I got injured in my sophomore year of football. My coach said this,"Football like any other sport forces you to make quick judgment calls. The call you make is the one that will either let the play succeed or fail."

                          8/10 times he was right, Coaches may try to relay signals but for the most part coaches have to have faith in their players to make smart choices. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't.

                          Given the Colts are a 2nd half team then again who wouldn't be when you got Manning at the helm of a offense that can put 40+ points a game if given a chance. Its call bluffing the defense, you have your offense play shy (running basic routes, run, roll outs and options) this forces the opposing defense to "throw everything at you + the kitchen sink. When halftime comes Dungy goes and pulls out the real game plan and thats where the opposing defense gets plastered.

                          I hate to say it but because I hate the Pats, the reversal Brady's screen to Moss then back to Brady for the TD. Wasn't a called play and Im sure if the plan failed Bellicheck would have torn into Moss and not Brady. Yet it did so it makes Bellicheck look more like a Genius. Also the Inching Super Bowl wins, well if Bellicheck looses this one more questions will be raised about how can someone 3 times win a SB by 3 points or less.

                          Packers when Mike McCarthy took over no one thought the Packers would get any better, and they thought Farve would retire in disgrace even with the records he broke. Mostly because Analyst around the league thought that the Packer Glory days have left them when Mike Holmgren left for Seattle. Yet look at the Packers this year and Farve's stats. McCarthy's training and the synchronization of the new WR with Farve have produced a strong team.

                          So the thing is, with Shanahan were missing the Synchronization of the Bronco Offense. How bad does he have to make the adjustments does he have to go. "hey look my plan going into this game isnt scoring points, we got 10 mins to make a new 20 play set before we go out there." you know how half assed that would be. It would be Blunderball instead of Football.

                          The thing is Shanny and most NFL coaches go in with one primary plan set and 3 contingency plans. If Plan A fails go to Plan B and repeat. Yet Shanahan doesn't have something that other teams that are winning have. A Stable every down RB, a O-line that can protect the QB, and a Healthy Defense that knows a knew system down pat. Tell me how is one coach able to all this without the team going 4-10 or worse. Theres no coach that can. Unless the guy is a Psychic and can link his minds with the 11 players on the field while mind reading his opposition.

                          Shanahan may have told Cutler to play it by the book this year, witch he wants to minimize the mistakes Cutler may have while allowing room for Cutler to grow at a stable pace. Maybe in another year or 2 Shanny will tell Cutler, "ok heres the play and if you see that they are gonna bite, improvise!" Like the Texans game, witch showed me a lot, during the 3 wide out play where Jay got rushed, Someone from the WR should have broke and slanted in after going 10 yards witch would have allowed Jake to dump it off the middle and gain 10+ more yards yet because Shanny told them this year to "play by the book to minimize mistakes." Jay took the sack instead of tossing it. Next time the WR will know.

                          Defense, come on Bates needs better players and thats enough said!

                          Half time adjustments may be opening up the can of woop ass later then earlier. Maybe refining one play to get into FG range for a win, or to let your players go, "if all else fails improvise!" Yet BIG half time adjustments will not happen because c'mon theres not much you can do in 10 mins other then catching your breath and taking a leak before trotting back onto the field.
                          McDaniles Career as a failure of a Head Coach is being fulfilled. Termination of McFailure has happen.

                          Rejoice Bronco Fans we have taken our team back, but at a heavy cost.

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                          • #28
                            I will say that Coco is a pinche baboso who could never beat me in FIFA World Cup 98!

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