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  • #16
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    Call me biased if you want, just make sure you also call me right.

    If you don't know this about Spencer, it's obvious you have not watched the Cowboys play much.

    I watch their games because they generally precede the Broncos, and my friend is a huge Cowboys fan, so I watch them almost as much as I watch the Broncos.

    Spencer is a reserve only because Greg Ellis is playing lights out; Tim Crowder can't beat out John Engelberger. That prety much tells you all you need to know.

    Nice try at a cheap shot guys, but your wrong....as usual.
    I've had no problem calling you right when you've been right. And you know that.

    But......Spencer lost his job to an aging vet that was coming off an achilles tendon rupture and a 5 sack season, that would never happen to a player you're describing.

    That tells me all I need to know!

    So until Spencer is the player you've already made him out to be, I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm right (About whatever it is you think I'm supposed to be wrong about ).

    Besides all that, I really have no dog in this hunt, as long as Moss/Crowder work out for the Broncos, that's all I care about.

    As long as that happens, I couldn't care less if Spencer leads the league in sacks, because I don't care if you're right and I'm wrong.

    I care more about the Broncos than I do about being right.

    So trust me, MindField, when you're right, I'll be right here patting you on that back.

    Btw, in no way did I intend to take a cheap shot. What we said was true, and this post of yours proves it......
    Last edited by stnzed; 12-23-2007, 05:36 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
      No, I took a shot at you regarding your overall stubborn attitude towards player assessment. It was stnzed who specifically took the shot at you about Spencer. Either way, your arrogance is astounding.

      "Well, sometimes they are relevant, and sometimes they aren't."

      And I suppose you're the one who decides when a stat is or isn't relevant right?
      Stats are just information....they are always subject to interpretation.

      For example, if you look at Spencer's numbers and say, 'jeez, he only has three sacks, he must be having a terrible year...' That would be a statement you would make only if you did not realize he has also had several big hits on QB's, specifically Manning, Favre and Kitna, that he did not get any kind of statistical credit for. So while they almost single-handedly ended Manning and Favre's seasons in particular, and were big-time pass rushing plays that Spencer got no credit for, exactly what would YOU call it???

      If Spencer was a starter this year for the Cowboys, he would easily be in the 7-8 sack range.

      In short, Spencer has been everything I hoped he would be, albeit for the Cowboys, and will be an excellent player for years to come.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by stnzed View Post
        I've had no problem calling you right when you've been right. And you know that.

        But......Spencer lost his job to an aging vet that was coming off an achilles tendon rupture and a 5 sack season, that would never happen to a player you're describing.

        That tells me all I need to know!

        So until Spencer is the player you've already made him out to be, I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm right (About whatever it is you think I'm supposed to be wrong about ).

        Besides all that, I really have no dog in this hunt, as long as Moss/Crowder work out for the Broncos, that's all I care about.

        As long as that happens, I couldn't care less if Spencer leads the league in sacks, because I don't care if you're right and I'm wrong.

        I care more about the Broncos than I do about being right.

        So trust me, MindField, when you're right, I'll be right here patting you on that back.

        Btw, in no way did I intend to take a cheap shot. What we said was true, and this post of yours proves it......
        Once again, it shows that you really don't know what you are talking about. Ellis may be an 'aging vet' as you say, but he also has been playing extreemel;y well in less than a full season.

        Ellis would have been named to the Pro Bowl with a full season...

        John Engelberger can't say that.

        Comment


        • #19
          Well Crowder has 4 sacks in the last six games, what makes you think he wouldn't 6-8 sacks if he were the starter here?

          This is my point, you make excuses for Spencer not starting, yet you go out of your way to take unnecessary shots at Crowder.

          Be honest, do you love being right so much that you actually want Moss/Crowder to fail?

          As for Crowder not starting, there are more even confusing/unexplainable moves on the d-line this year that have proven to wrong moves. What makes you think this one is any different?......

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by stnzed View Post
            Well Crowder has 4 sacks in the last six games, what makes you think he wouldn't 6-8 sacks if he were the starter here?

            This is my point, you make excuses for Spencer not starting, yet you go out of your way to take unnecessary shots at Crowder.

            Be honest, do you love being right so much that you actually want Moss/Crowder to fail?

            As for Crowder not starting, there are more even confusing/unexplainable moves on the d-line this year that have proven to wrong moves. What makes you think this one is any different?......
            Not really, and BTW, according to NFL.com, Greg Ellis has 12 1/2 sacks on less than a full season, just so you know, and before we continue this conversation, so I will rest my case there.

            I just never really liked Tim Crowder, but I hope he can at least be part of a rotation. However, I feel about him the same way I felt about Dorsett Davis and some others I could name here as guys I suspect will ultimately disappoint. I hope Crowder can prove me wrong, but a year in, he hasn't so far.

            Moss annoys me when you realize we traded up and spent an additoinal pick to take him when he was not a markedly better prospect than Anthony Spencer...all of this figures into my thinking.

            ...and yes, I in fact do like to be proven right....not necessarliy at the expense of the Broncos, but then, they are the ones making the picks, not me.
            Last edited by MindField; 12-23-2007, 06:07 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MindField View Post
              Once again, it shows that you really don't know what you are talking about. Ellis may be an 'aging vet' as you say, but he also has been playing extreemel;y well in less than a full season.

              Ellis would have been named to the Pro Bowl with a full season...

              John Engelberger can't say that.



              Greg Ellis is a guy coming of a season in which he had 5 sacks in 9 games, he's a guy coming off a major injury at the age of 31, he's a guy that wanted to be traded at one point because he felt he didn't fit the 3-4 system....

              He IS the reason Anthony Spencer was drafted!!

              Spencer had the starting job right in front of him through week 3 and lost it to the guy he was drafted to replace.

              Now of course Ellis is playing great right now, the move to start him was a great move......But if Spencer is already the player you say he is, he should have at least earned significantly more playing time at the position they moved back into the 1st round to draft him to play.

              If the Broncos drafted Spencer instead of Moss, he'd be playing the same position as Dumervil, so he hasn't proven he'd be starting here either.

              That tells me all I need to know......
              Last edited by stnzed; 12-23-2007, 06:06 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by MindField View Post
                Not really, and BTW, according to NFL.com, Greg Ellis has 12 1/2 sacks on less than a full season, just so you know, and before we continue this conversation, so I will rest my case there.

                I just never really liked Tim Crowder, but I hope he can at least be part of a rotation. However, I feel about him the same way I felt about Dorsett Davis and some others I could name here as guys I suspect will ultimately disappoint. I hope Crowder can prove me wrong, but a year in, he hasn't so far.

                Moss annoys me when you realize we traded up and spent an additoinal pick to take him when he was not a markedly better prospect than Anthony Spencer...all of this figures into my thinking.

                ...and yes, I in fact do like to be proven right....not necessarliy at the expense of the Broncos, but then, they are the ones making the picks, not me.
                That's kinda hypocritical, MindField, Dallas traded up (To the Eagles, no less) to get Spencer too. And he hasn't proven to be worth it either......
                Last edited by stnzed; 12-23-2007, 06:53 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by stnzed View Post
                  Greg Ellis is a guy coming of a season in which he had 5 sacks in 9 games, he's a guy coming off a major injury at the age of 31, he's a guy that wanted to be traded at one point because he felt he didn't fit the 3-4 system....

                  He IS the reason Anthony Spencer was drafted!!

                  Spencer had the starting job right in front of him through week 3 and lost it to the guy he was drafted to replace.

                  Now of course Ellis is playing great right now, the move to start him was a great move......But if Spencer is already the player you say he is, he should have at least earned significantly more playing time at the position they moved back into the 1st round to draft him to play.

                  If the Broncos drafted Spencer instead of Moss, he'd be playing the same position as Dumervil, so he hasn't proven he'd be starting here either.

                  That tells me all I need to know......
                  When you have DeMarcus Ware and Greg Ellis playing like they are, you start/play them. Spencer was a great pick for Dallas, especially as insurance considering Ellis' age and injury...but he is also in his tenth season or so, so Spencer has the luxury of learning on the job from a great veteran player....all the same, he has still made some great plays for the Dallas defense, and has shown me he is what I thought he was, and, I definitely believe he is a better player than Crowder. Now, I still have high hopes for Moss, but he is a guy that has had trouble staying healthy, so this years injury has to be a concern.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MindField View Post
                    Stats are just information....they are always subject to interpretation.

                    For example, if you look at Spencer's numbers and say, 'jeez, he only has three sacks, he must be having a terrible year...' That would be a statement you would make only if you did not realize he has also had several big hits on QB's, specifically Manning, Favre and Kitna, that he did not get any kind of statistical credit for. So while they almost single-handedly ended Manning and Favre's seasons in particular, and were big-time pass rushing plays that Spencer got no credit for, exactly what would YOU call it???

                    If Spencer was a starter this year for the Cowboys, he would easily be in the 7-8 sack range.

                    In short, Spencer has been everything I hoped he would be, albeit for the Cowboys, and will be an excellent player for years to come.
                    The same could be said for many players. The fact remains that good players have good stats, mediocre players have mediocre stats, and bad players have bad stats. How many almost-sacks turn into 1st downs? How many almost-interceptions turn into touchdowns? Almost is still a failure in the game of football.
                    Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                    Team Tebow #108

                    Yards, without points, mean nothing.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This defense has the players to succeed, all we really need is a big strong DT along Thomas, and maybe a bulkier DE instead of Engleb.
                      Last edited by Return of Lava; 12-23-2007, 06:35 PM.
                      dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                      I tried to warn ya.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There is a significant jump between year 1 and year 2, see Ware, Canty, Mario Williams etc.

                        Our guys will be fine.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Now maybe people will shut up about Gary Kubiak taking Mario Williams over Reggie (bust) Bush, or Vince (will-play-QB-for-food) Young.

                          In a GREAT YEAR....as in, "legendary", maybe 5-6 DL come out of college that are true starters at their positions in the NFL. The rest are all dice-rolls and "projects".

                          It's the facts, Jack. The NBA gobbles up the prototype-NFL-DL. Been happening for years now. Nevermind the fact that 6-6, 280-300 lbs cat-quick human males don't grow on trees.

                          The original analysis was detailed and correct, for the most part. Every team lacks DL except for a lucky few. Drafting them doesn't mean they will pan out.

                          Marcus Thomas is a rare find, but I said that before the draft.

                          Elvis is a rare find....that's self-evident.


                          Any fool defensive co-ordinator would build around those two and get some damn linebackers that can tackle and not look like they play for the Special Olympics.

                          It ain't rocket science.

                          Draft the best LB available or for that RB from Illinois if he's around. It's not hard.

                          This draft appears to be basically weak overall, but strongest at DL and OL....so draft the weak position that fits the team best, (RB, LB, S) knowing that you can fill holes on DL and OL later on. If you have a high draft pick ....and the draft is weak at a particular position, then you draft Patrick Willis, and take your so-called lumps.

                          We should be so lucky......

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MindField View Post
                            Call me biased if you want, just make sure you also call me right.

                            If you don't know this about Spencer, it's obvious you have not watched the Cowboys play much.

                            I watch their games because they generally precede the Broncos, and my friend is a huge Cowboys fan, so I watch them almost as much as I watch the Broncos.

                            Spencer is a reserve only because Greg Ellis is playing lights out; Tim Crowder can't beat out John Engelberger. That prety much tells you all you need to know.

                            Nice try at a cheap shot guys, but your wrong....as usual.
                            and kenny peterson... To Tims credit he has looked good at points this year. and there has been points where i am going what the heck is he doing.

                            Spencer is a decent player someone i think denver should have gotten as well. but we have moss so no use crying over spilled milk.
                            The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                            While he sits by his hearth at home.
                            Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                            That he knows nothing at all.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Tyger View Post
                              Now maybe people will shut up about Gary Kubiak taking Mario Williams over Reggie (bust) Bush, or Vince (will-play-QB-for-food) Young.

                              In a GREAT YEAR....as in, "legendary", maybe 5-6 DL come out of college that are true starters at their positions in the NFL. The rest are all dice-rolls and "projects".

                              It's the facts, Jack. The NBA gobbles up the prototype-NFL-DL. Been happening for years now. Nevermind the fact that 6-6, 280-300 lbs cat-quick human males don't grow on trees.

                              The original analysis was detailed and correct, for the most part. Every team lacks DL except for a lucky few. Drafting them doesn't mean they will pan out.

                              Marcus Thomas is a rare find, but I said that before the draft.

                              Elvis is a rare find....that's self-evident.


                              Any fool defensive co-ordinator would build around those two and get some damn linebackers that can tackle and not look like they play for the Special Olympics.

                              It ain't rocket science.

                              Draft the best LB available or for that RB from Illinois if he's around. It's not hard.

                              This draft appears to be basically weak overall, but strongest at DL and OL....so draft the weak position that fits the team best, (RB, LB, S) knowing that you can fill holes on DL and OL later on. If you have a high draft pick ....and the draft is weak at a particular position, then you draft Patrick Willis, and take your so-called lumps.

                              We should be so lucky......
                              I dont know what you are on. but this draft is pretty darn deep. good at RB LB WR DT wayyyyyyy deep
                              The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                              While he sits by his hearth at home.
                              Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                              That he knows nothing at all.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Broncosinindy View Post
                                I dont know what you are on. but this draft is pretty darn deep. good at RB LB WR DT wayyyyyyy deep
                                About 3/4's of a bottle of good Cabernet.

                                Now I'm no Draft guru (anymore), I'm just basing my opinion of the positions of depth based on what I've read from the 3 or 4 resident draftniks here on this board, and Kiper's "Big Board". And they generally agree. The top end of the draft seems loaded with linemen, both offensive and defensive, and I saw very few RB's, QB's, and only 1 WR listed as top picks....big article on why only 1 WR may be taken in the first round.

                                I figure Kiper spends far more time than I do analyzing college players, and his opinion (overall) is usually one of the more informed one's in the nation....so that's what I based that on.


                                I hope we draft that LB out of Penn State now. He's a machine.

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