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  • Question: what about Bates?

    Question: what about Bates?
    The usually wildly successful defensive guru finds himself in an unfamiliar spot with the Broncos - on the hot seat
    By Mike Klis
    The Denver Post
    Article Last Updated: 12/23/2007 01:07:31 AM MST

    Jim Bates' defense did not meet expectations in 2007. (Steve Nehf, Denver Post file photo )

    Jim Bates was a good defensive coach before he joined the Broncos this year. The Broncos consistently played good defense in the years before Bates arrived.

    Another example, perhaps, why there is no such thing as the perfect couple.

    For whatever reason, and for many reasons, Bates' defensive philosophy didn't mesh with the Broncos' players in their first season together. Entering their Christmas Eve game against the AFC West champion San Diego Chargers, the Broncos rank 29th in the 32-team NFL in defending the run and 30th in defending the score.

    This is nothing short of a free-fall for a defense that just two years ago ranked No. 2 against the run and No. 3 in points allowed.

    Broncos in 2007, the defense will become priority No. 1 as the Broncos plan their rebound for 2008. Significant changes will be made.

    "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out," Broncos defensive back Domonique Foxworth said. "If it's broke, fix it."

    Every player will be evaluated at season's end. Mike Shanahan, as the head coach, will evaluate every assistant. The most immediate question regards Bates and his defensive philosophy. One may stay, but probably not both.

    "Jim Bates can coach football," Broncos safety John Lynch said. "His resume speaks for itself. We struggled playing the scheme he's accustomed to. You can argue whether we did much better since we went another way. But I think a lot of things go into what happened."

    Throughout this trying season, Bates has been a man. He has faced the media without ever losing his temper. He has accepted blame. He doesn't read the newspapers, but he answers all the questions.

    Almost every question. When asked about the future of the Broncos' defense, and for himself personally, Bates politely stated it would be more appropriate if he waited until after these final two games, Monday against the Chargers, and six days later against the Minnesota Vikings.

    "Any time you have a season like we've had, there's going to be speculation," Bates said. "Just like there's speculation in 20 other NFL cities right now."

    It's just this is the first time Bates has been in the same room with a hot seat. He brought in a system featuring seven men in the box, enormous tackles and man-to-man coverage.

    There are three players going to the Pro Bowl from other teams — Green Bay's Aaron Kampman and Al Harris, and Miami's Jason Taylor — who previously have sworn by Bates' system.

    Bates had a good run as defensive coordinator with the Miami Dolphins from 2000-04. And the Packers are fighting for the No. 1 seed in the NFC using Bates' system, introduced during his lone season there in 2005.

    "He has an amazing track record," Foxworth said. "I would say this last season was an aberration. It was definitely not the norm in his career. I would say he's not the problem."

    But after the Broncos were trampled through four preseason games and five regular-season games, there was little choice but to trash Bates' system. The primary issue was stopping the run. It was heave-the-cap, slam-the-clipboard bad.

    Two problems

    Actually, there are two problems with failing to stop the run. Not only does it put the opponent in position to score, it prevents Shanahan's offense from getting in rhythm.

    It's hard for an offense to get in sync when it's forever watching from the sideline. It's why the foundation

    During their bye week, the 2-3 Broncos decided to add an eighth man to the box. The systematic switch in turn led to several in-season alterations in defensive line personnel.

    The results were mixed. The Broncos played superb defense in two victories against Kansas City, and in a loss at Chicago. They got stampeded in losses to Detroit, Oakland and Houston.

    "If you change, obviously something wasn't working," said Alvin McKinley, the only veteran tackle from training camp who survived the defensive overhaul. "So we had to bring that other guy down in the box. After that, for the most part we did pretty good. But then there was always something, here and there. We should have been more like that team that showed up and played the Kansas City Chiefs."

    What's next?

    What will the Broncos do about their defense for 2008? Shanahan offers little hint.

    "We'll look at the film and evaluate what we need to do in terms of free agency and the draft," he said. "Just like we do every year."

    Not every thought will advocate upheaval. D.J. Williams is about to complete his first season at middle linebacker. Wouldn't he be a better middle linebacker in his second year? Bates proved he's not so wedded to his system that he couldn't teach another. Will his previous success earn him a mulligan?

    "One of the great things I learned from Tony Dungy is, he said when things don't work, everyone wants to change, change, change," said Lynch, speaking about his former Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach. "He was more, 'We're going to stick with what we've got and make it better.' I think there's been so much change here that sometimes sticking to something will make things better.

    "Now, someone has to step back and say, either we have the horses or we don't. That's for other people to decide. And one thing I've always liked about the Broncos is, I used to be frustrated and think, 'Come on, let's go get some free agents.' Here, you know they're going to go after people.

    "But I think there's a fine line there. You can't scrap everything and start all over."

    Soon, the Broncos' season will end. Much sooner than expected, the offseason will begin. There's no sense sugarcoating the first question of the Broncos' offseason: Does Bates get to start over?

    http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7787961

  • #2
    Lynch's closing words there are my thoughts exactly. This team needs a little continuity.
    sigpic

    Elvon Millervil eat grues for breakfast.

    Pey-Pey to Bey-Bey for the Tey-Dey.

    Comment


    • #3
      There is the answer

      Bates system was taken out the 5th game of the season. They went to that 8men in the box thing because there was NO WAY the system was gonna work with fat a$$ adams and other lanky DTs in the middle.

      I think these last 10-11 games could help our defense out even more.......if we go after the succesfull defensive tackles that can help Bates system our defense will have knowledge of the Bates and the 8men system. It would make our D more versatile.

      PS: Foxworth seems like hes asking to get traded.

      B-Marsh owning Al Harris(Aka: the supposed most physical corner in the league)

      Mock Draft:

      **If Ellis/Dorsey fall**

      1) Dorsey or Ellis(whoever falls)
      2) Devin Thomas
      4) Frank Okam
      4) Beau Bell

      **If Ellis/Dorsey dont fall**

      1) Desean Jackson
      2) Pat Sims or Trevor Laws(whoever falls)
      4) Frank Okam
      4) Beau Bell

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by broncs2bowl View Post

        PS: Foxworth seems like hes asking to get traded.
        I'm sure he isn't the only one. There's a lot of good players on that defense like Bailey and Dj Williams who are being "wasted away". It pains me to say it, but Denver should do them a favor and trade them. Get them out of our garbage defense.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
          I'm sure he isn't the only one. There's a lot of good players on that defense like Bailey and Dj Williams who are being "wasted away". It pains me to say it, but Denver should do them a favor and trade them. Get them out of our garbage defense.
          Ugh.... silk... I like you, but it takes a lot to not want to completely bash you for that BS talk.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by broncs2bowl View Post
            PS: Foxworth seems like hes asking to get traded.
            To me, the more Foxworth talks the more he sounds like a loudmouth punk.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
              Ugh.... silk... I like you, but it takes a lot to not want to completely bash you for that BS talk.
              Is it really BS though? Do you honestly feel that Champ Bailey appreciates the defense that he belongs too? He's arguably the best CB in the game, he isn't utilized the way he should be because the rest of the defense sucks.

              I feel sorry for the guy. He's a great player, and he doesn't deserve to be a part of such a godforsaken defense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
                Is it really BS though? Do you honestly feel that Champ Bailey appreciates the defense that he belongs too? He's arguably the best CB in the game, he isn't utilized the way he should be because the rest of the defense sucks.

                I feel sorry for the guy. He's a great player, and he doesn't deserve to be a part of such a godforsaken defense.
                and THAT is complete BS!! Yes.. its BS!

                These guys deserve to play their F'ing HEART out no matter where they play. THey are a part of THIS team. They are brothers with THESE players. They are Friends with THESE guys... they don't "deserve" to go somewhere else.

                I Fracking HATE that BS crap! Just as I hate the players that gripe, moan, groan, complain, to get out of the team they are with simply so they can go sign with the newest "Hot" team to try and win the SB. To me, thats not EARNING your ring, thats going along for the ride.

                No one was feeling "sorry" for these guys when they were on the 2005 13-3 team. There is no reason we should feel "sorry" for them for having to suffer through a rough year. We didn't feel "sorry" for Champ last year when he had 10 INTs. No. I do NOT feel "sorry" for these guys simply because they had to play on a team that had a rough year.

                Just the suggestion that we should "do them a favor and let them go"... REALLY boils my blood.

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                • #9
                  Man what the hell is wrong with Foxworth? Seriously, I'm starting to hate him every time I see his name. This guy thinks he's a veteran of some sort and he wants to speak out and call people out through the media, what a moron. I seriously don't see this guy here next year, he wants more cash and he wants to be a starter, pfft he's not getting none of those here. I'd rather keep Paymah than Foxworth at this moment.

                  See this is why some players in the locker room say that it's now when they're losing is when people show their real colors. I'm not liking Foxworths real colors, not a bit. Everyone else is keeping their cool. You see Bly, Lynch, and Bailey saying they're going to still play hard and stuff.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
                    Is it really BS though? Do you honestly feel that Champ Bailey appreciates the defense that he belongs too? He's arguably the best CB in the game, he isn't utilized the way he should be because the rest of the defense sucks.

                    I feel sorry for the guy. He's a great player, and he doesn't deserve to be a part of such a godforsaken defense.
                    Poor, multi-million dollar professional athletes are too good for the players around them... boo-hoo...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
                      Is it really BS though? Do you honestly feel that Champ Bailey appreciates the defense that he belongs too? He's arguably the best CB in the game, he isn't utilized the way he should be because the rest of the defense sucks.

                      I feel sorry for the guy. He's a great player, and he doesn't deserve to be a part of such a godforsaken defense.
                      How about we do ourselves a favor and just improve our own defense, so he can be proud of it.
                      dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                      I tried to warn ya.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The most significant indication to me that the Broncos are going to get rid of Bates or Bates will leave in the offseason, is that they scrapped his scheme five games into the season. I mean, how do you expect the players to learn and adapt to the scheme if you're not even running it anymore? If we try it again next season, we're going to be running into the same problems.

                        The only way Bates gets saved is if he's able to stick to the one-gap system, because it seems to me that DJ Williams, Champ Bailey, and John Lynch weren't able to play well in the previous system at all, and these guys are the staple of the defense, and likely aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

                        Someone earlier mentioned team continuity. In fairness, Bates has been one of the most significant reasons why this team hasn't been able to develop any type of continuity. When you have brought in, released, and brought back in 13 different defensive linement through the course of one season, what do you exactly expect?
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                          and THAT is complete BS!! Yes.. its BS!

                          These guys deserve to play their F'ing HEART out no matter where they play. THey are a part of THIS team. They are brothers with THESE players. They are Friends with THESE guys... they don't "deserve" to go somewhere else.

                          I Fracking HATE that BS crap! Just as I hate the players that gripe, moan, groan, complain, to get out of the team they are with simply so they can go sign with the newest "Hot" team to try and win the SB. To me, thats not EARNING your ring, thats going along for the ride.

                          No one was feeling "sorry" for these guys when they were on the 2005 13-3 team. There is no reason we should feel "sorry" for them for having to suffer through a rough year. We didn't feel "sorry" for Champ last year when he had 10 INTs. No. I do NOT feel "sorry" for these guys simply because they had to play on a team that had a rough year.

                          Just the suggestion that we should "do them a favor and let them go"... REALLY boils my blood.

                          You're right.

                          It's just too bad that we have one of the greatest CB's ever to play the game, and one of the sorriest defenses to go along with it in the NFL.

                          It isn't completely conceivable to think that when Champ leaves Denver, he will have one playoff win to go along with it during his tenure here.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                            How about we do ourselves a favor and just improve our own defense, so he can be proud of it.
                            You mean Denver hasn't been doing that for the last 5+ years?

                            If they haven't, their idiots. If they have, they have been unable to figure it out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
                              Poor, multi-million dollar professional athletes are too good for the players around them... boo-hoo...
                              Reading comprehension goes a long way sometimes.

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