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  • Road_Apples
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    No argument there, nor with the statement that bigger/stronger lineman can also run Denver system......I completely agree with that, fwiw! But most people are convinced that they need to be 280-290 to run this scheme......

    But as far as the Colts line is concerned, they have Howard Mudd coaching them......Which brings me back to Dennison, the pass protection has been a problem since he took over, imo, or at least long before this years injury problems......

    Dennison was marginal as a LB when he played. I don't believe he ever played O-Line. Where this O-Line expertise came from is beyond me. he was a TE in college and that makes him quailify for OLC ?

    Indy's line does have starters that were not drafted in the first round, however they seem to be able to get the job done. Something that is obviously not occurring here.
    Maybe we get better coaching AND intelligence on player evaluation so that we can draft lower and get better quality out of our picks. This is not happening currently.
    Just because we did this for years and it worked- Gibbs seemed to be able to get the best out of them- doesn't mean we can continue that tradition. Since he left we plain ol suck at O-line- especially in the confidence department. You never see swagger, running up to the LOS to play smashmouth. In the SB years we just had the confidence that no matter what, we were going to be successful at whatever play we were going to call- be it run or pass.
    Since then we have had to downgrade to trick and gadget plays on third and shorts.

    It starts with having confidence in your QB, then the next level is the O-line. When those two things are there your whole offense operates on the next level. The chains move; you score more often; the opposing Defense is on the field longer and tires out more quickly; their Offense is on the field less often and your defense is more rested to take care of that. When the O rolls you can get along with a "lesser" D.

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  • Dean
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    No argument there, nor with the statement that bigger/stronger lineman can also run Denver system......I completely agree with that, fwiw! But most people are convinced that they need to be 280-290 to run this scheme......

    But as far as the Colts line is concerned, they have Howard Mudd coaching them......Which brings me back to Dennison, the pass protection has been a problem since he took over, imo, or at least long before this years injury problems......

    A zone blocking lineman needs to be an athlete. Most 320 or 340 pounders aren't. Those few that meet the criteria are the creme de la creme. They come with a high premium attached while the under 300 pounders have been cheap and functional.

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  • stnzed
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    It is also true in zone blocking. All offensive linemen and the TE must move in together like fingers on the same hand. It requires even more communication and knowing what the man on each side of you is going to do than pass protection. I am not talking about just the stretch play where angles and split second decisions are essential. Even running between the tackles requires co-ordination. In the double team at the point of attack, the players hands are on the first level while their eyes are on the second level. A split decision must be made as to who will handle the D-lineman and who will peel off to engage the LB. I see it every day during the season- we run a zone blocking scheme.

    I agree the Broncos have hisorically lost one-on-one battles far too often. That's why I am for increasing the size of our O-line. I don't want to throw out the scheme just because of this year. However, Indy I believe has the smallest O-line in the NFL and they manage to protect Manning rather well.

    As for the position coach, he is down to your third team left guard, a newbie at center, a porous right side, and a LT that still appears to have not yet returned to his pre-injury form. I thik that I will cut him some slack.

    Offensively, the Broncos are ninth in scoring with 19.9 points per game. They average 5.7 yards per play. However, the 14 fumbles that were lost and the interceptions have nulified much of that production. The offense is down from what we normally see but it as the #1 priority. Based on those figures IMO the defensive line that gives up 26 points per game (#18) should be our first priority and probably second as well.

    No argument there, nor with the statement that bigger/stronger lineman can also run Denver system......I completely agree with that, fwiw! But most people are convinced that they need to be 280-290 to run this scheme......

    But as far as the Colts line is concerned, they have Howard Mudd coaching them......Which brings me back to Dennison, the pass protection has been a problem since he took over, imo, or at least long before this years injury problems......

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  • Dean
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    I'm sure this is true in pass pro, Dean, but how much does it effect their ability to re-establish a new LOS, in the running game?

    And even in pass blocking, yes they are obviously having communication break downs, but they are also losing a ton of one-on-one battles.

    I've been on the o-line for years, so I'll try to keep my rants short, but this line is a huge liability......And, imo, that includes the position coach......
    It is also true in zone blocking. All offensive linemen and the TE must move together like fingers on the same hand. It requires even more communication and knowing what the man on each side of you is going to do than pass protection. I am not talking about just the stretch play where angles and split second decisions are essential. Even running between the tackles requires co-ordination. In the double team at the point of attack, the players hands are on the first level while their eyes are on the second level. A split second decision must be made as to who will handle the D-lineman and who will peel off to engage the LB. I see it every day during the season- we run a zone blocking scheme.

    I agree the Broncos have hisorically lost one-on-one battles far too often. That's why I am for increasing the size of our O-line. I don't want to throw out the scheme just because of this year. However, Indy I believe has the smallest O-line in the NFL and they manage to protect Manning rather well.

    As for the position coach, he is down to your third team left guard, a newbie at center, a porous right side, and a LT that still appears to have not yet returned to his pre-injury form. I think that I will cut him some slack.

    Offensively, the Broncos are ninth in scoring with 19.9 points per game. They average 5.7 yards per play. However, the 14 fumbles that were lost and the interceptions have nulified much of that production. The offense is down from what we normally see but it as the #1 priority. Based on those figures IMO the defensive line that gives up 26 points per game (#18) should be our first priority and probably second as well.
    Last edited by Dean; 12-26-2007, 04:33 PM.

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  • Return of Lava
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane View Post
    Lepsis is one of the problems, he is not a true tackle but a converted tight end that fit the scheme built around Plummer...Hamilton is a better run blocking guard then pass protector and if Nalen is gone he will likely move to center therein leaving an open weakness at left guard! Nalen I think will retire, but even if all three return, I still think Shanahan will want to fix the vast problems on offense...

    Lepsis is pound for pound the strongest guy we have on the line. Hamilton is too light for my taste at guard, but he still is solid as well. The question is whether he will come back, but yeah an upgrade is definitely needed on the right guard and center slot. i dont think Nalen is the answer anymore at center, we need to start getting more power with the middle 3 guys imo. I've seen Nalen get controlled in the goalline too many times. Nalen is crafty but is older than wanted. Center and right guard need to be stronger (not neccessarily bigger), Pears is ok at right tackle I believe he will develop a lot more with his frame.

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  • svpearson
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane View Post
    Lepsis is one of the problems, he is not a true tackle but a converted tight end that fit the scheme built around Plummer...Hamilton is a better run blocking guard then pass protector and if Nalen is gone he will likely move to center therein leaving an open weakness at left guard! Nalen I think will retire, but even if all three return, I still think Shanahan will want to fix the vast problems on offense...

    I wont argue with you about Lepsis, he didn't play very well this year but I think he is a bit better than you seem to. I hope your are wrong and that we don't have vast problems....but I can't say that I would put a bet on it

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  • lancane
    replied
    Originally posted by svpearson View Post
    I dont have any problems with this strategy, granted its your dream and I doubt we can get all those free agents.

    I do think trading up for more first round picks would be worth it if the board looks like it warrants it...

    I guess this all depends on the status of Lepsis, Nalen and Hamilton. If at least 2 of them come back, then I think our need to draft lots of O-line is less urgent.
    Lepsis is one of the problems, he is not a true tackle but a converted tight end that fit the scheme built around Plummer...Hamilton is a better run blocking guard then pass protector and if Nalen is gone he will likely move to center therein leaving an open weakness at left guard! Nalen I think will retire, but even if all three return, I still think Shanahan will want to fix the vast problems on offense...

    Leave a comment:


  • svpearson
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    I'm sure this is true in pass pro, Dean, but how much does it effect their ability to re-establish a new LOS, in the running game?

    And even in pass blocking, yes they are obviously having communication break downs, but they are also losing a ton of one-on-one battles.

    I've been on the o-line for years, so I'll try to keep my rants short, but this line is a huge liability......And, imo, that includes the position coach......

    I really hope our O-line is not as bad as it looks right now. I just can't stand the thought of having to rebuild both lines.....don't wanna wait 2 or 3 years to be good again.

    Im praying a couple of the new guys turn out well and at least Nalen and Lepsis come back and play well next year...and we draft an O-linemen or 2. (or get a good FA)

    Leave a comment:


  • svpearson
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane View Post
    First off it is a weak year to want to draft a defensive tackle, where as the offensive linemen this year is impressive, and it is easy to see that...when you may see more first round halfbacks over first round defensive tackles, then you know it is a weak year to be in need! Dorsey, Ellis, Okam and maybe Harrison or Balmer...Offensive tackles in the first: Long, Clady, Baker, Otah, Cherilus, Williams and possibly Hills. Then check out those halfbacks who will likely be gone in the first: McFadden, Stewart, Mendenhall, Jones and possibly Steve Slaton!

    I guess it is just more obvious to me to seek the talented areas which are deep and you can near guarantee a player of quality then trying to win the lottery and being stuck with less then you wanted cause you filled the need in free agency! But right now I see defensive tackle and safety as the two priority positions of need regarding defense, but offensively we may need a stud guard, we need a very good offensive tackle maybe two, we need a halfback to come in and compete and we need a wideout to compete, because even if Javon Walker stays...he will not play until mid-season more then likely, he has to have surgery and then go through the steps to recover which he may never fully recover anyways!

    The best off-season would be if Denver signed Demorrio Williams from Atlanta to compete at outside linebacker, he is good enough to start at both outside positions. Sign Corey Williams from Green Bay to compete at defensive tackle or to bring interior rushing ability to the unit. Re-sign Hamza Abdullah to start at Strong Safety, Re-sign Jason Elam because he is the best option and we need him, Re-sign Ebenezer Ekuban to compete and for depth, Sign Kyle Larson from Cincinnati to be our punter for a few years, Re-sign Karl Paymah for depth and to compete at nickle and sign Chris Crocker from Atlanta if we can to rotate at Free Safety with Lynch, he is a proven starter with both Cleveland and Atlanta...plus he is only 27 years old!

    Denver then should use Domonique Foxworth or Dre Bly as trade bate, I would prefer to keep Foxworth over Bly, either way I think Bly has done well enough to earn looks from around the league, and most teams know Foxworth is capable to start at corner. Either would likely bring a 3rd Round pick for the Broncos. Then I would like to see Denver make some serious moves to build up day one or early day two picks for the draft; I would love to see Denver trade down and get Dallas's two 1st Round picks which in value will likely be good enough to trade near evenly I think we get a 60 point advantage. Then see Denver turn around and use their multiple picks for day two to rise in the draft in latter rounds, right now it looks as though our picks in the 4th round will be good enough to land another 3rd round pick easily enough if we find someone willingly and the two 5th round picks if we added our single 7th round pick would be near close to ninety points and we could add a latter round pick the following year to get Denver another late 3rd round pick...yes it eliminates the second day for us, but we would walk out of day one with six first day picks to fix the offense at that point as well but with youth instead of broken veterans as we have done crappy so far.

    That would be my dream off-season though...lol.

    I dont have any problems with this strategy, granted its your dream and I doubt we can get all those free agents.

    I do think trading up for more first round picks would be worth it if the board looks like it warrants it...

    I guess this all depends on the status of Lepsis, Nalen and Hamilton. If at least 2 of them come back, then I think our need to draft lots of O-line is less urgent.

    Leave a comment:


  • stnzed
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    I agree that the front office needs to invest some higher picks (higher than the fourth round) to improve the size of our O-line. There are linemen that have both the size and athletecism to excel in the Broncos zone blocking scheme and yet offer more physical play in short yardage and in pocket protection. However, they tend to only appear in the first and second rounds of the draft.

    I am of the opinion that having no single lineman that has played next to the man he starts beside this year has been a huge factor in their lack of consistancy. To pass judgement on their ability to play based solely upon this second half of the season isn't IMO valid.

    It is unclear whether our Notre Dame tackle selection was a hit or a miss. He injured his back. Is it healed? He didn't play even though Pears (Lepsis to a lesser degree) has struggled. . . but then Denver linemen tend to always spend their first year watching.

    Who will be back next year. . . Nalen? Hamilton? Both? Neither?
    I'm sure this is true in pass pro, Dean, but how much does it effect their ability to re-establish a new LOS, in the running game?

    And even in pass blocking, yes they are obviously having communication break downs, but they are also losing a ton of one-on-one battles.

    I've been on the o-line for years, so I'll try to keep my rants short, but this line is a huge liability......And, imo, that includes the position coach......

    Leave a comment:


  • lancane
    replied
    Originally posted by svpearson View Post
    So the draft is loaded with O-linemen. But as you said if most of them go in the first round, we would most likely have to take one of them with our first pick. With as bad as our D-line was this year would you do that? Now, we did draft a handful of D-linemen last year, so If some of them develop I guess a first pick of a stud O-linemen would be ok with me. But still, our D-line is by far our biggest weakness seems like to me. Maybe go for the best O-linemen or D-linemen available with our first pick, then go the other way with our next one.
    First off it is a weak year to want to draft a defensive tackle, where as the offensive linemen this year is impressive, and it is easy to see that...when you may see more first round halfbacks over first round defensive tackles, then you know it is a weak year to be in need! Dorsey, Ellis, Okam and maybe Harrison or Balmer...Offensive tackles in the first: Long, Clady, Baker, Otah, Cherilus, Williams and possibly Hills. Then check out those halfbacks who will likely be gone in the first: McFadden, Stewart, Mendenhall, Jones and possibly Steve Slaton!

    I guess it is just more obvious to me to seek the talented areas which are deep and you can near guarantee a player of quality then trying to win the lottery and being stuck with less then you wanted cause you filled the need in free agency! But right now I see defensive tackle and safety as the two priority positions of need regarding defense, but offensively we may need a stud guard, we need a very good offensive tackle maybe two, we need a halfback to come in and compete and we need a wideout to compete, because even if Javon Walker stays...he will not play until mid-season more then likely, he has to have surgery and then go through the steps to recover which he may never fully recover anyways!

    The best off-season would be if Denver signed Demorrio Williams from Atlanta to compete at outside linebacker, he is good enough to start at both outside positions. Sign Corey Williams from Green Bay to compete at defensive tackle or to bring interior rushing ability to the unit. Re-sign Hamza Abdullah to start at Strong Safety, Re-sign Jason Elam because he is the best option and we need him, Re-sign Ebenezer Ekuban to compete and for depth, Sign Kyle Larson from Cincinnati to be our punter for a few years, Re-sign Karl Paymah for depth and to compete at nickle and sign Chris Crocker from Atlanta if we can to rotate at Free Safety with Lynch, he is a proven starter with both Cleveland and Atlanta...plus he is only 27 years old!

    Denver then should use Domonique Foxworth or Dre Bly as trade bate, I would prefer to keep Foxworth over Bly, either way I think Bly has done well enough to earn looks from around the league, and most teams know Foxworth is capable to start at corner. Either would likely bring a 3rd Round pick for the Broncos. Then I would like to see Denver make some serious moves to build up day one or early day two picks for the draft; I would love to see Denver trade down and get Dallas's two 1st Round picks which in value will likely be good enough to trade near evenly I think we get a 60 point advantage. Then see Denver turn around and use their multiple picks for day two to rise in the draft in latter rounds, right now it looks as though our picks in the 4th round will be good enough to land another 3rd round pick easily enough if we find someone willingly and the two 5th round picks if we added our single 7th round pick would be near close to ninety points and we could add a latter round pick the following year to get Denver another late 3rd round pick...yes it eliminates the second day for us, but we would walk out of day one with six first day picks to fix the offense at that point as well but with youth instead of broken veterans as we have done crappy so far.

    That would be my dream off-season though...lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • Return of Lava
    replied
    Originally posted by svpearson View Post
    Pears is such a big guy, and he is lean for his size because he is so tall...but Im unsure what I think of him so far. He has had some good games and some really bad games. So, I really hope he keeps getting better.
    Yeah I like his size, and I think his strength is pass protection, but I think he needs to improve on power run blocking, get lower.

    I love his height though, not easy finding an 6'8 tackle.
    Last edited by Return of Lava; 12-26-2007, 02:11 PM.

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  • svpearson
    replied
    Originally posted by muse View Post
    Pears and Kuper have spent 2 seasons in the system. They'll be here next year competing for a starting spot.
    Pears is such a big guy, and he is lean for his size because he is so tall...but Im unsure what I think of him so far. He has had some good games and some really bad games. So, I really hope he keeps getting better.

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  • Return of Lava
    replied
    If Ben hamilton doesnt come back, it may be a good idea to draft an o-lineman 1st or 2nd round and start them early. We have problems on the d-line, but they cant be fixed by a rookie anyway imo. Plus we already have a 1st round talent in Marcus Thomas. I think o-line is more important than D-line especially with shanahan as our coach, he is a offensive minded coach, he needs the players to match.

    When the Chiefs had their powerful o-line, they were like 13-0 at one point a few years back right?

    Leave a comment:


  • muse
    replied
    Originally posted by elevation INC View Post
    lepsis is past due, as is kuper and even pears, we need bigger line to protect cutler and open lanes.
    Pears and Kuper have spent 2 seasons in the system. They'll be here next year competing for a starting spot.

    Leave a comment:

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