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Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

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  • #16
    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from others who have posted the stats was that Bates had shown in both Green Bay and in Miami that he had a top "overall" defense, but that it was much like it was this year: horrible on run defense and brilliant on pass defense. Such that the opposing teams were able to run at will on his previous teams and their run defenses didn't get any better until after Mr. Bates had left.

    I've waiting for all the pro-Bates supporters to address this issue.
    The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
      First off, the defense isn't supposed to be complex. In fact, the scheme has a reputation for being simplistic in nature, and much less complicated than any scheme Denver was running previously.

      This was according to Jim Bates and Mike Shanahan, as well as several players, during training camp.

      Second, Bates' scheme was dumped after the bye week. That means that, beginning next season, we're going to be back to square one with trying to implement it and getting the players familiar with it. On top of that, Bates had his playcalling duties taken away mid-season and was placed up in the booth - where he didn't want to be. I think you can take that as signs that the writing is on the wall with regards to his returning to Denver.

      Lastly, I only have to look at the play of Champ Bailey this season to know that the scheme hinders his playmaking abilities and doesn't allow him to excel at what he does best. If Champ Bailey isn't working well within the scheme, then you have a serious problem.
      So you think its' a forgone conclusion that he'll be gone next year? I hope you're right, but then I start having nightmares of Slowik being solely responsible for the defense...
      Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

      Team Tebow #108

      Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
        I simply didn't see Williams have or develop during the season, not to mention he lacked the big-play capability we're used to seeing from our MLB.
        Please don't say that Al Wilson was the one having big-play ability...

        He may have been a better leader, especially vocally, but a "play maker?"

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        • #19
          OK, one of the problems with being on probation is this....

          I can't edit anything.

          When I said "they" aren't going anywhere..

          I meant.

          We have the best "man" corners in the league.

          They (being opposition) are going to have a major problem trying to manage 6 rushers when their receivers are being blanketed.

          One of our safety's is coming.

          Get used to it.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AmericanBronc View Post
            Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from others who have posted the stats was that Bates had shown in both Green Bay and in Miami that he had a top "overall" defense, but that it was much like it was this year: horrible on run defense and brilliant on pass defense. Such that the opposing teams were able to run at will on his previous teams and their run defenses didn't get any better until after Mr. Bates had left.

            I've waiting for all the pro-Bates supporters to address this issue.
            Technically, his defenses have been elite against the pass, and good to mediocre against the run. I don't think he's ever had a defense this shoddy against the run.
            Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

            Team Tebow #108

            Yards, without points, mean nothing.

            Comment


            • #21
              Ok, I'll accept the truth of that. But really... why do we want to sacrifice one for the other? I don't recall us *ever* having a run defense this horrid. Now, admittedly, I've only been following the broncos closely for the last 15 years or so, but wow. We sacrifice run defense for pass defense? Seems like a poor choice.

              Now, don't get me wrong... I don't think our defense, as a whole, was as horrible as some people claim. It was only atrocious against top-tier offenses. The biggest problem was that we always lost the field position battle. If we ever stopped opposing offenses, it was after they'd gained 50+ yards from their 1 yard line. And then we receive the punt and start all over.

              I don't know... all I know is that it doesn't *sound* like Bates is the man we want. I don't want to hold anyone accountable after just one season to rework things, but I have a gut feeling he was a poor choice from the very start.
              The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by AmericanBronc View Post
                Ok, I'll accept the truth of that. But really... why do we want to sacrifice one for the other? I don't recall us *ever* having a run defense this horrid. Now, admittedly, I've only been following the broncos closely for the last 15 years or so, but wow. We sacrifice run defense for pass defense? Seems like a poor choice.

                Now, don't get me wrong... I don't think our defense, as a whole, was as horrible as some people claim. It was only atrocious against top-tier offenses. The biggest problem was that we always lost the field position battle. If we ever stopped opposing offenses, it was after they'd gained 50+ yards from their 1 yard line. And then we receive the punt and start all over.

                I don't know... all I know is that it doesn't *sound* like Bates is the man we want. I don't want to hold anyone accountable after just one season to rework things, but I have a gut feeling he was a poor choice from the very start.
                I have the same gut feeling. People keep saying we shouldn't judge him after one season as he didn't have the players for his system, and I'm left wondering how no one in the Broncos organization failed to see that. These people are supposedly football experts. Bates was a terrible choice. You don't bring in a defensive coach whose scheme relies primarily on having a great d-line when your d-line is sh1t. It just doesn't make sense.
                Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                Team Tebow #108

                Yards, without points, mean nothing.

                Comment


                • #23
                  sounds like we'll be up for another disastrous year for the defense

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                    I have the same gut feeling. People keep saying we shouldn't judge him after one season as he didn't have the players for his system, and I'm left wondering how no one in the Broncos organization failed to see that. These people are supposedly football experts. Bates was a terrible choice. You don't bring in a defensive coach whose scheme relies primarily on having a great d-line when your d-line is sh1t. It just doesn't make sense.
                    But, more importantly, I think, is that his record doesn't lie. Just as it's true he's put together impressive pass defenses (lining DEs out wide to get better pass-rushing capability), he's put together disappointing rush defenses. Someone was saying Miami, back in the Bates days, was at the bottom for run defense (sorry, but a lot less than mediocre) and Green Bay the same.

                    So it seems to me that there's something inherently wrong with the scheme even if it is implemented correctly. Bates supporters, please advise me. (Seriously, I'd like to know why you support the man.)
                    The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hardcorebronco View Post
                      His scheme hinges on having a big fat DT that is able to command double teams and collapse the pocket. In some cases he used two, both starting.

                      We didn't have one. Sam Adams didn't work out, and neither did the trade for Kenedy. That's not Bates' fault. There just simply wasn't any big DT's available. This offseason I think they will try to find atleast two.

                      Lb's. Holdman was projected to start on the strongside, but was injured the whole season. And we were still reeling from the loss of Wilson.

                      Safeties, we have essentially two strong safeties. Lynch isn't the pass coverage guy that can patrol over the top, and Abdullah is little more than a run stopper / big hitter guy. Bates' relies on his safeties being able to cover the over the top and provide help for his receivers that play man.

                      So already, that's three major flaws in the three levels of our defense. He clearly did not have the players he needed to run his scheme, which is why it was scrapped after week four.
                      This is a pretty good summary and I can't disagree with it. The question is whether Denver will be able to find an elite NT via FA or the draft for next season. There aren't that many and rarely are they allowed to get away via FA by teams that have one.

                      As for the draft Denver might not be able to find a true NT there either. It depends on who's available at #12 when the Broncos pick.

                      But really, Denver needs to draft a DT and acquire a starter via FA.

                      The biggest problems with the defense this season were:

                      1. Shanahan finally drafted 3 DL after years of neglecting them during the draft, but it was too late. The three rookies Moss, Crowder and Thomas were not ready to play this year, but all were forced into the lineup due to injuries and general incompetence of the veterans ahead of them.

                      They didn't come through.

                      2. D.J. Williams wound up with the 2nd most tackles in the NFL this year to Patrick Willis, which is a good year by anybody's standard. But, he took a while to get there. It was a very rough adjustment at first, but he appears to have made the transition. However, he's still not the unquestioned leader of this defense the way Al Wilson was. That will take years, not games. Meanwhile there really isn't that vocal leadership they had in the past.

                      3. Because of the failure of the DL to stop the run, the Broncos had to play 8 men in the box, bringing up Lynch and 2 LBs to the line of scrimmage. Naturally, this left the CBs isolated on WRs and TEs and left the middle wide open for underneath routes to the TE and #3 WR. With 8 men on the line the passing defense suffered a lot and RBs who broke through the line got big yardage because there was nobody back there to stop them short of 10-15 yards. Champ Bailey was the #2 tackler on the team. That gives you some idea how bad the defense was handicapped by this D-line.

                      All this meant the Broncos couldn't possibly stop any team that had a decent offense and they didn't. They even got blown out by Detroit, which then went on to tank the entire rest of the season!

                      The NFL is a player league. You can't win with schemes and coaching, you have to have talent. Coaching is necessary to win of course, but you have to have talent first. Nobody can win with huge holes on both the offensive and defensive lines and the Broncos didn't in 2007. Whether this will be different in 2008 remains to be seen.

                      They will need a serious infusion of talent to replace 2 DTs and LT Matt Lepsis before they can even THINK about going to the playoffs next season.
                      sigpic

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                      • #26
                        Like mentioned before we do not have the people to play his defense.

                        A truely great coach will adapt his schemes to his talent. See Parcells Giants, Patriots and now Cowboys(the Cowboys are essentially his team even though he is gone). Three very different teams with talent loaded in different spots and they had different schemes.

                        What I do not like is I get the feeling Bates is going to keep trying to force his defense down the throats of players not suited to play it. Also some players do not think the defense will work. Maybe they need to go or maybe they realize something.

                        I have been a hardcore Bronco fan for 24 years, watching probably 90% of the games (not bad since I only spent 4 of those years in Denver) and never have I seen our defense in such bad shape. Against good teams we look horrible!

                        Bates needs to go now and Shanny needs to take a long look at his decisions that led him to bring Bates here.

                        We have defensive talent. We need a couple more players but what we really need is a coach who will make his scheme around our players. Also we need a coach who can teach the fundamentals of tackling, forcing fumbles and being in posistion on pass plays. Even Lynch has become a worse tackler since he came to Denver imo.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                          Like mentioned before we do not have the people to play his defense.

                          A truely great coach will adapt his schemes to his talent. See Parcells Giants, Patriots and now Cowboys(the Cowboys are essentially his team even though he is gone). Three very different teams with talent loaded in different spots and they had different schemes.

                          What I do not like is I get the feeling Bates is going to keep trying to force his defense down the throats of players not suited to play it. Also some players do not think the defense will work. Maybe they need to go or maybe they realize something.

                          I have been a hardcore Bronco fan for 24 years, watching probably 90% of the games (not bad since I only spent 4 of those years in Denver) and never have I seen our defense in such bad shape. Against good teams we look horrible!

                          Bates needs to go now and Shanny needs to take a long look at his decisions that led him to bring Bates here.

                          We have defensive talent. We need a couple more players but what we really need is a coach who will make his scheme around our players. Also we need a coach who can teach the fundamentals of tackling, forcing fumbles and being in posistion on pass plays. Even Lynch has become a worse tackler since he came to Denver imo.
                          There's one slight problem with this analysis. The Broncos didn't have the players to run ANY defense! After the bye-week they reverted to the standard defensive packages they used before and THAT didn't work either.

                          You can't blame Bates for having crappy players! That's Shanahan's fault. Denver's D-line in 2007 outside of Dumervil was just flat BAD, bad, bad.

                          They had to fire not less than 3 starting or projected starting DTs (Warren, Kennedy, Gordon, Adams) and one backup - Antwon Burton. That's five guys who flat couldn't do the job!

                          Bates wasn't the one getting knocked flat on his back while the RB runs straight through the space he vacated for a TD in the Jaguars game! That was Amon Gordon. And it wasn't Bates' fault that Jimmy Kennedy and Gerrard Warren flat refused to learn the defense so that they had to be cut/traded.

                          You might have noticed that Warren didn't do anything with the Raiders either, winding up as a bench-sitter for that 4-12 team (he played in 12 games and started only 5). So, you can hardly fault Bates for that failure.

                          The grim meathook reality is that Bates inherited a lot of horrible DL and Shanahan couldn't do anything to get quality DTs. Bates did what he could with what he had, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as the bible says.
                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                            This is a pretty good summary and I can't disagree with it. The question is whether Denver will be able to find an elite NT via FA or the draft for next season. There aren't that many and rarely are they allowed to get away via FA by teams that have one.

                            As for the draft Denver might not be able to find a true NT there either. It depends on who's available at #12 when the Broncos pick.

                            But really, Denver needs to draft a DT and acquire a starter via FA.

                            The biggest problems with the defense this season were:

                            1. Shanahan finally drafted 3 DL after years of neglecting them during the draft, but it was too late. The three rookies Moss, Crowder and Thomas were not ready to play this year, but all were forced into the lineup due to injuries and general incompetence of the veterans ahead of them.

                            They didn't come through.

                            2. D.J. Williams wound up with the 2nd most tackles in the NFL this year to Patrick Willis, which is a good year by anybody's standard. But, he took a while to get there. It was a very rough adjustment at first, but he appears to have made the transition. However, he's still not the unquestioned leader of this defense the way Al Wilson was. That will take years, not games. Meanwhile there really isn't that vocal leadership they had in the past.

                            3. Because of the failure of the DL to stop the run, the Broncos had to play 8 men in the box, bringing up Lynch and 2 LBs to the line of scrimmage. Naturally, this left the CBs isolated on WRs and TEs and left the middle wide open for underneath routes to the TE and #3 WR. With 8 men on the line the passing defense suffered a lot and RBs who broke through the line got big yardage because there was nobody back there to stop them short of 10-15 yards. Champ Bailey was the #2 tackler on the team. That gives you some idea how bad the defense was handicapped by this D-line.

                            All this meant the Broncos couldn't possibly stop any team that had a decent offense and they didn't. They even got blown out by Detroit, which then went on to tank the entire rest of the season!

                            The NFL is a player league. You can't win with schemes and coaching, you have to have talent. Coaching is necessary to win of course, but you have to have talent first. Nobody can win with huge holes on both the offensive and defensive lines and the Broncos didn't in 2007. Whether this will be different in 2008 remains to be seen.

                            They will need a serious infusion of talent to replace 2 DTs and LT Matt Lepsis before they can even THINK about going to the playoffs next season.
                            The question I have is whether or not we want to try and build a Bates' style defense, or just take what we have, scheme around it, while adding good players wherever we can.
                            Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                            Team Tebow #108

                            Yards, without points, mean nothing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                              The question I have is whether or not we want to try and build a Bates' style defense, or just take what we have, scheme around it, while adding good players wherever we can.
                              I think that pretty much depends on whether they can get 2 starting quality DTs who fit the system or not. It won't be easy and unless they do there's really no point in trying to use that defense.

                              Bates' defense is designed to spread out the DEs wide both to prevent teams running around the corner, and also to give the DEs a better angle to the QB for better pass rush pressure.

                              That was why Shanahan brought Bates here. The Broncos has lacked a consistent pass-rush for most of this entire decade and that is probably the biggest reason they haven't gotten back to the SB. If the system would have worked it would have created a top 5 defense because Denver's CBs are so good at coverage.

                              But, to spread out the DEs means that the DTs have to occupy 2 blockers to prevent them from penetrating to the second level and pushing aside the LBs.

                              Well, not ONE of Denver's DTs really commanded 2 blockers, which meant that when they weren't getting pushed around or knocked flat, they were easily handled by one OT/OG -- which left other OL to get to the LBs and block them.

                              Result? One of the worst run defenses in football.

                              What we learned in 2007 is that being a big fatty like Sam Adams isn't enough. The DT has to be athletic enough to clog the middle and strong enough to shed blockers and penetrate and draw double-teams on passing downs. None of the Denver DTs fit that bill right now.

                              Perhaps Marcus Thomas will develop into that kind of player in a year or two. . . . or not. We'll just have to see.

                              But, without the right players there's no hope of using that system.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post

                                Lastly, I only have to look at the play of Champ Bailey this season to know that the scheme hinders his playmaking abilities and doesn't allow him to excel at what he does best. If Champ Bailey isn't working well within the scheme, then you have a serious problem.
                                Champ just isn't good enough to cover a receiver for more than a few minutes.

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