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Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
    Champ just isn't good enough to cover a receiver for more than a few minutes.
    But in fairness, we had a terrible pass rush in '05 and '06, but Champ was a beast both those seasons.

    I truly think the scheme hinders Champ's natural, play-making abilities, and if that's the case, then bye-bye, Jim Bates.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
      Technically, his defenses have been elite against the pass, and good to mediocre against the run. I don't think he's ever had a defense this shoddy against the run.
      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________

      Umm, yeah, he has......look....in the last decade he had 2 good run defenses....on a team that had 7 pro bowlers......we have 1 pro bowler.......the truth is 80% of the time he can't stop the run......let me put it this way.....it was asked......"How do you stop a Bates defense" (in 2003).....New Englands guy said "run right at it".

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cugel View Post
        I think that pretty much depends on whether they can get 2 starting quality DTs who fit the system or not. It won't be easy and unless they do there's really no point in trying to use that defense.

        Bates' defense is designed to spread out the DEs wide both to prevent teams running around the corner, and also to give the DEs a better angle to the QB for better pass rush pressure.

        That was why Shanahan brought Bates here. The Broncos has lacked a consistent pass-rush for most of this entire decade and that is probably the biggest reason they haven't gotten back to the SB. If the system would have worked it would have created a top 5 defense because Denver's CBs are so good at coverage.

        But, to spread out the DEs means that the DTs have to occupy 2 blockers to prevent them from penetrating to the second level and pushing aside the LBs.

        Well, not ONE of Denver's DTs really commanded 2 blockers, which meant that when they weren't getting pushed around or knocked flat, they were easily handled by one OT/OG -- which left other OL to get to the LBs and block them.

        Result? One of the worst run defenses in football.

        What we learned in 2007 is that being a big fatty like Sam Adams isn't enough. The DT has to be athletic enough to clog the middle and strong enough to shed blockers and penetrate and draw double-teams on passing downs. None of the Denver DTs fit that bill right now.

        Perhaps Marcus Thomas will develop into that kind of player in a year or two. . . . or not. We'll just have to see.

        But, without the right players there's no hope of using that system.
        I don't see much hope of us getting two DTs like that anytime soon. I just don't. And if that's what's required for our defense to not totally suck under Bates, I'm leaning toward going a different direction.
        Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

        Team Tebow #108

        Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
          But in fairness, we had a terrible pass rush in '05 and '06, but Champ was a beast both those seasons.

          I truly think the scheme hinders Champ's natural, play-making abilities, and if that's the case, then bye-bye, Jim Bates.
          I personally don't think its the scheme. Man-to-man obviously relies on a pass rush, because ANY QB in the NFL can pass the ball well. I mean, they wouldn't make it to the NFL if they couldn't. So you give ANY QB time, and they will eat you up.

          But man-to-man defense is WEAK against the run, which obviously is NOT what this defense needs. We can't run a defensive backfield that is weakest against our OBVIOUS weakness.

          So we have to run zone more and more. But again, with no pass rush, a QB will find the holes in a zone. I mean, if a QB and WR can just slide to the open hole, eventually they will find the right spot.

          But CBs can't be asked to stick with a WR that has the time to run a route, see the QB hasn't thrown the ball, so then adjusts the route to be open. A CB can't be asked to stick with a WR for the amount of time it takes to run ten yards up, and ALLLLLL the way across the field. Crossing routes are SO hard to cover anyway.

          So I think it was our in ability to stop the run, and rush the QB that is killing everything. Now.. maybe thats what you meant by scheme.. I don't know.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
            I don't see much hope of us getting two DTs like that anytime soon. I just don't. And if that's what's required for our defense to not totally suck under Bates, I'm leaning toward going a different direction.
            The way I look at it is this...if Larry Coyer can keep this defense a perennial top-10 defense with the Browncos and with a different starting CB every season between 2003-2006, then there's no excuse why Bates couldn't with the talent we had this season. I know we had young guys who were thrown in there after some veterans didn't step up. But it was just an unmitigated disaster, IMO, and you're not going to be able to get the players he's going to need for his scheme to work this offseason.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
              I don't see much hope of us getting two DTs like that anytime soon. I just don't. And if that's what's required for our defense to not totally suck under Bates, I'm leaning toward going a different direction.
              I'm with you here, especially since we need the trenches on both sides of the ball.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Beast#7 View Post
                Can he HONESTLY turn this defense around?? What will he need to work it out? What can we expect from him in the offseason? I need some answers.
                Yes I think he can.
                John 11: 25-27

                My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                Thanks Snk16

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                  I personally don't think its the scheme. Man-to-man obviously relies on a pass rush, because ANY QB in the NFL can pass the ball well. I mean, they wouldn't make it to the NFL if they couldn't. So you give ANY QB time, and they will eat you up.

                  But man-to-man defense is WEAK against the run, which obviously is NOT what this defense needs. We can't run a defensive backfield that is weakest against our OBVIOUS weakness.

                  So we have to run zone more and more. But again, with no pass rush, a QB will find the holes in a zone. I mean, if a QB and WR can just slide to the open hole, eventually they will find the right spot.

                  But CBs can't be asked to stick with a WR that has the time to run a route, see the QB hasn't thrown the ball, so then adjusts the route to be open. A CB can't be asked to stick with a WR for the amount of time it takes to run ten yards up, and ALLLLLL the way across the field. Crossing routes are SO hard to cover anyway.

                  So I think it was our in ability to stop the run, and rush the QB that is killing everything. Now.. maybe thats what you meant by scheme.. I don't know.
                  The stat that stook out to me that was brought up a few weeks back was that, last season, Champ had over 40 passes defended against. This season at that point, he had 6. I think it's somewhere around 10 or so now, but that's a significant drop-off, IMO.

                  It does appear that Champ was asked to play more man-to-man this season than in his previous 3 here, and he obviously excels more in the zone scheme Coyer ran. But again, if we can't bring in the players Bates needs this offseason in order to run his scheme, then what good is keeping him here?
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                  • #39
                    Another issue I see is even if we score Bates his kind of DTs, what happens if one or both get injured next season? I'm just not comfortable with a scheme that is that reliant on a couple of players.
                    Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                    Team Tebow #108

                    Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                      The stat that stook out to me that was brought up a few weeks back was that, last season, Champ had over 40 passes defended against. This season at that point, he had 6. I think it's somewhere around 10 or so now, but that's a significant drop-off, IMO.

                      It does appear that Champ was asked to play more man-to-man this season than in his previous 3 here, and he obviously excels more in the zone scheme Coyer ran. But again, if we can't bring in the players Bates needs this offseason in order to run his scheme, then what good is keeping him here?
                      But again... I think if the Defense is up, and the QBs have all day to pass the ball.... thats pretty easy to complete a pass on. Plus I think Champ is playing more zone this season, and not more man.

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                      • #41
                        Another possibility to consider is that Bates may simply decide to step down after this season. He's openly stated that he has been as frustrated as everyone else with his defenses' lack of progression in running his scheme. He had his playcalling duties and personnel decision-making taken away from him. He admitted that he never had this much trouble running his scheme in Miami or Green Bay.

                        Maybe he'll just bow out like Ray Rhodes did a few years ago.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                          The stat that stook out to me that was brought up a few weeks back was that, last season, Champ had over 40 passes defended against. This season at that point, he had 6. I think it's somewhere around 10 or so now, but that's a significant drop-off, IMO.

                          It does appear that Champ was asked to play more man-to-man this season than in his previous 3 here, and he obviously excels more in the zone scheme Coyer ran. But again, if we can't bring in the players Bates needs this offseason in order to run his scheme, then what good is keeping him here?
                          To be honest, I think opposing offenses took a different approach against Bailey this season. They either avoided him completely, or used designed plays to try and catch him out of position. I honestly think he faced even fewer passes this season than last.
                          Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                          Team Tebow #108

                          Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                            Another possibility to consider is that Bates may simply decide to step down after this season. He's openly stated that he has been as frustrated as everyone else with his defenses' lack of progression in running his scheme. He had his playcalling duties and personnel decision-making taken away from him. He admitted that he never had this much trouble running his scheme in Miami or Green Bay.

                            Maybe he'll just bow out like Ray Rhodes did a few years ago.
                            If that's the case, what's he waiting for?
                            Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                            Team Tebow #108

                            Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                              To be honest, I think opposing offenses took a different approach against Bailey this season. They either avoided him completely, or used designed plays to try and catch him out of position. I honestly think he faced even fewer passes this season than last.
                              That's certainly a possibility.

                              It just seemed like Bates' scheme brought every player down significantly.
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                                If that's the case, what's he waiting for?
                                Same thing Lynch is waiting for.

                                He's under contract with the Broncos for two more seasons, and so if he makes a decision to leave, he won't be able to go anywhere until his contract lapses.

                                He could also be waiting to see if Denver is even wanting to bring him back...
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