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Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cugel View Post
    There's one slight problem with this analysis. The Broncos didn't have the players to run ANY defense! After the bye-week they reverted to the standard defensive packages they used before and THAT didn't work either.

    You can't blame Bates for having crappy players! That's Shanahan's fault. Denver's D-line in 2007 outside of Dumervil was just flat BAD, bad, bad.

    They had to fire not less than 3 starting or projected starting DTs (Warren, Kennedy, Gordon, Adams) and one backup - Antwon Burton. That's five guys who flat couldn't do the job!

    Bates wasn't the one getting knocked flat on his back while the RB runs straight through the space he vacated for a TD in the Jaguars game! That was Amon Gordon. And it wasn't Bates' fault that Jimmy Kennedy and Gerrard Warren flat refused to learn the defense so that they had to be cut/traded.

    You might have noticed that Warren didn't do anything with the Raiders either, winding up as a bench-sitter for that 4-12 team (he played in 12 games and started only 5). So, you can hardly fault Bates for that failure.

    The grim meathook reality is that Bates inherited a lot of horrible DL and Shanahan couldn't do anything to get quality DTs. Bates did what he could with what he had, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as the bible says.
    I generally agree with you, but have to differ on this one. I think we can pin at least 75% of the blame for the personnel failures on the Dline on Bates. Shanahan made it clear in numerous press conferences that he was leaving personnel decisions on the defensive side up to Bates.

    I believe that Bates' scheme can produce an effective defense that is capable of accompanying an elite offense to a Superbowl. He will not win a Superbowl with his D as seen in the 85 Bears. My foremost concern is that he simply cannot evaluate talent. This year quite frankly scared the crap out of me. We signed vet after vet and they clearly were all garbage. I'll give him another year, but I had better see tremendous improvement the second half of next year.

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    • #47
      One thing that people aren't giving Bates credit for is knowing what he was doing wasn't working, trying to make the adjustments with what he had. What I find encouraging is that the Broncos recognized their weaknesses on D and did make the attempt to address them, although nothing worked. We do have a chance for a good DT in the offseason. Haynesworth is a FA at the end of the season. Also, watching college this season and the bowl games there is some hope. Most DT's I have seen have the raw (in some cases very raw) talent, but they have the intangibles. They can push the clog the middle and can get good upfield push on a pass rush.
      I wonder if the thought has been entertained withing the FO to pick up Bill Billick. He can't do anything with and offense but he can build a great defense. Don't know if he'd come back into the NFL as an assistant though. What I'd like to see out of this defense is less of the cerebral approach and just go out there and start busting offenses in the mouth. Playing with an attitude, playing with a fire that just isn't there.
      I don't know if Bates is the answer or not. Most days I don't think he is. I wish there was an easy answer. But anyone who knows anything will say that Bates isn't the whole problem, if any of it. The weakness in the middle of the DL is our most glaring problem. Fix it and see what happens then.

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      • #48
        Or, it could be that our personnel have gotten worse year over year... Last year, Gold had a decent year, Wilson did until he got hurt. I think, with the exception of Elvis, our dline was better last year. But obviously, they were not good enough. So we changed to a proven DC, and he tries to fill in the holes with who is available, but there is just not enough ammo available.

        The thing we need to do is quit neglecting the front 4. Last year's draft was the first time we gave it serious attention since we got Pryce and Berry. We are paying for it big time. WITH Bates, we finally spent some draft capital where we needed it most. AND we are still not done. You can't expect much out of any DC until this has been addressed. There is just no substitute for a good front 4. Doesn't matter who is wearing the headsets or calling the shots.

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        • #49
          The bottom line is this - Denver is going to have to feel beyond a reasonable doubt that Bates' scheme is the right fit for this team if they're going to retain him for next season. If we have another season like this one and Bates is fired after '08, that's another year lost with these players. You have to be certain that this guy can coach these players and get better as a unit.

          Given that his scheme was already scrapped and his playcalling taken away, I'd say that's everything we need to know right there.
          sigpic

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          • #50
            I don't see how when we have champ bailey, dre bly, and john lynch in the secondary and still its seems like any team can pass all over us.

            I guess its our horrible d-lines pressure on the qb.
            sigpic

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            • #51
              Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
              The bottom line is this - Denver is going to have to feel beyond a reasonable doubt that Bates' scheme is the right fit for this team if they're going to retain him for next season. If we have another season like this one and Bates is fired after '08, that's another year lost with these players. You have to be certain that this guy can coach these players and get better as a unit.

              Given that his scheme was already scrapped and his playcalling taken away, I'd say that's everything we need to know right there.
              Actually, just Shanny and Bowlen. And I would be SORELY disappointed in them if they got rid of Bates to scapegoat the fact that right now, we do not have the players to run ANY scheme. (assist to Cugel: sorry man, I couldn't send you any CP's).

              Right now, we must lead the league in getting blocked, over-running plays, and missing tackles. And again, who thinks that Bates REALLY is scheming to get them to do those things?
              Last edited by gobroncsnv; 01-01-2008, 04:56 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
                Actually, just Shanny and Bowlen. And I would be SORELY disappointed in them if they got rid of Bates to scapegoat the fact that right now, we do not have the players to run ANY scheme. (assist to Cugel: sorry man, I couldn't send you any CP's).
                I really don't think that Bates will be gone. If he's gone that means a new system for the players to adjust too and a new coach who has to figure out what his new players can and can not do.
                John 11: 25-27

                My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                Thanks Snk16

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by spcdlee02 View Post
                  I wonder if the thought has been entertained withing the FO to pick up Bill Billick. He can't do anything with and offense but he can build a great defense. Don't know if he'd come back into the NFL as an assistant though. What I'd like to see out of this defense is less of the cerebral approach and just go out there and start busting offenses in the mouth. Playing with an attitude, playing with a fire that just isn't there.
                  Actually, the Ravens got Billick from the Vikings after Minn had led the league in scoring with him as OC. Ozzie Newsome and Marvin Lewis have to get credit for the D that everyone thinks that Billick put together.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TXBRONC View Post
                    I really don't think that Bates will be gone. If he's gone that means a new system for the players to adjust too and a new coach who has to figure out what his new players can and can not do.
                    If we brought in a coach that ran the standard cover 2 scheme, they wouldn't have to adjust to anything.
                    Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                    Team Tebow #108

                    Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DancingHorsey View Post
                      If we brought in a coach that ran the standard cover 2 scheme, they wouldn't have to adjust to anything.
                      I think there still would be some adjustment maybe not as much but still some adjustment.
                      John 11: 25-27

                      My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                      Thanks Snk16

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TXBRONC View Post
                        I think there still would be some adjustment maybe not as much but still some adjustment.
                        Keep in mind that we haven't even been running Bates scheme since early this year. If we keep Bates they're going to have to try to adjust to his system once again anyway.
                        Only fools bet against Tim Tebow.

                        Team Tebow #108

                        Yards, without points, mean nothing.

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                        • #57
                          OK, if we get rid of Bates, who should Denver go for? and will it take a huge transition to make that work?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
                            Actually, the Ravens got Billick from the Vikings after Minn had led the league in scoring with him as OC. Ozzie Newsome and Marvin Lewis have to get credit for the D that everyone thinks that Billick put together.

                            You are exactly right. My bad.
                            Here is what I hope for after thinking more on it. I'd like to see Bates stay. I think if he stays open-minded as he seems to be then maybe this can be fixed. Where my concern with keeping him is wondering how much respect the players still have or how much patience they still have with him.
                            He needs to not be so fancy either. The D-line needs to keep one thing and one thing only in mind. Get the guy with the ball. Be it a QB or RB, GET HIM!!!!!! They need to get an attitude. I'd like to see Haynesworth come here simply because of his attitude. Being a beast in the middle sure is a plus too. This D is still a little ways from being elite, but they are on the way. They need something or someone to bring it all together.

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                            • #59
                              Ah.......nope
                              "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."sigpic

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by theshiverman View Post
                                Ah.......nope

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