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Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

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  • #61
    So this is what it's become?

    Jesus, you so called Bronco "fans" always looking for th quick fix. This in my opinion is what got the organization into this mess in the first place. With Shanny just plugging in old/new parts until something kind of worked, if at all. Honestly I'm happy with Bates, and how bad this season has gone, it gives the team a chance to focus on actually building a championship team. Don't think this team went to hell on defense overnight, did most of you sleep through the second half of the 2006 season? We had been falling apart since then, and that defense was way more painful to watch than this one.

    You cannot blame Bates on the horrible defense this year. As most of the posters on here that have actually watched the games pointed out; we haven't used the actual "scheme" since game 4. What does that say? If you don't have players that can run a base defense those players got to go. Even when they were trying play they were either over running plays, missing tackles AFTER they over ran a play, and just quitting. I'm sorry but all that doesn't even translate into even a mediocre defense.

    Basically, we need players that actually want to play and if not, get them out of here....

    I can't believe some of you guys wanting a new head coach, GM, whatever.... Hah, you can barely handle a little turn over on defense.....
    Careful what you wish for, Darth , cause here comes the worst DC in the league...... -stnzd
    What's that? Need proof? http://dack.com/archive/bob-slowik-must-be-fired.html


    Goodbye social life...




    My Mojo!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by delirium_05 View Post
      So this is what it's become?

      Jesus, you so called Bronco "fans" always looking for th quick fix. This in my opinion is what got the organization into this mess in the first place. With Shanny just plugging in old/new parts until something kind of worked, if at all. Honestly I'm happy with Bates, and how bad this season has gone, it gives the team a chance to focus on actually building a championship team. Don't think this team went to hell on defense overnight, did most of you sleep through the second half of the 2006 season? We had been falling apart since then, and that defense was way more painful to watch than this one.

      You cannot blame Bates on the horrible defense this year. As most of the posters on here that have actually watched the games pointed out; we haven't used the actual "scheme" since game 4. What does that say? If you don't have players that can run a base defense those players got to go. Even when they were trying play they were either over running plays, missing tackles AFTER they over ran a play, and just quitting. I'm sorry but all that doesn't even translate into even a mediocre defense.

      Basically, we need players that actually want to play and if not, get them out of here....

      I can't believe some of you guys wanting a new head coach, GM, whatever.... Hah, you can barely handle a little turn over on defense.....
      I remember watching Denvers games on the drive chart last year. It reminded me of the Vikes game . Drive after drive, all the way down the field to our endzone. At the start of last year they would get there and not score. then it all fail apart as the season wore on and the players got tired.

      However. I do think 2008 can be great if we can get the DL we need.


      :salute!: !!Get well soon!!:salute!:

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      • #63
        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
        He admitted that he never had this much trouble running his scheme in Miami or Green Bay.
        What kind of admission is that? It's a blaming one: I've been able to do it fine before, just not here. (Implication: probably not my fault.)

        The truth seems to be different according to the stats people have posted here: He had just as much trouble in other places, as well.
        The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
          Actually, just Shanny and Bowlen. And I would be SORELY disappointed in them if they got rid of Bates to scapegoat the fact that right now, we do not have the players to run ANY scheme. (assist to Cugel: sorry man, I couldn't send you any CP's).

          Right now, we must lead the league in getting blocked, over-running plays, and missing tackles. And again, who thinks that Bates REALLY is scheming to get them to do those things?
          And your answer to the track record Bates has of producing poor run defenses?

          People, don't ignore this point. Either it's true or it's not. If it is, it's a clear piece of evidence that we don't want him here!
          The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by B4Bronco6 View Post
            Please don't say that Al Wilson was the one having big-play ability...

            He may have been a better leader, especially vocally, but a "play maker?"
            You're kidding, right? When healthy, Al Wilson was a TOP 3 MLB in the league. This isn't coming from me, this is from the experts that everyone out there loves to listen to. Al Wilson was never the best pass coverage guy and you rarely saw him breaking up passes or getting ints (I think his hands were literally made of stone) but he was a MASTER of GAP CONTROL. This is the most important skill for a LB to have. He was rarely out of position.

            He was a dominant run stopper - who do you think made LT's life hell in Denver every year and until a year and a half ago LT HATED playing here because of Al. Sure, the last couple of years he was plagued by injuries (he always seemed to be nicked up even when he played) the hand-club which prevented him from wrapping up, the shoulder stingers, and the neck injury which eventually sidelined him permanently and forced his release.

            Let's be honest here, Our D-line wasn't any worse this year than it has been in the past 5 when it comes to personnel, it was the change up of LBs that caused us to suck so much against the run. The loss of Al Wilson was HUGE.

            Have you not been a Denver fan very long? How can you say such ridiculous, unfounded things about Wilson. Have you not been watching?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by AmericanBronc View Post
              And your answer to the track record Bates has of producing poor run defenses?

              People, don't ignore this point. Either it's true or it's not. If it is, it's a clear piece of evidence that we don't want him here!

              Speak for yourself, I WANT HIM HERE! I know his system works. It will take time, that's all. we've had a ton of change in coaching staff and personnel over the last 2 years and these changes won't come overnight.

              A ton of guys here want Ryan from Baltimore as our D-coord but they sucked even worse than we did this year with an arguably better defensive roster and it wasn't like they were getting beaten 3-0 or anything.

              Did you ever stop to think that the reason the "good teams" are "good teams" for so long is because of consistency at the coaching position? Shanny in Denver, Cowher in Pittsburgh, Dungy in Indy, Bellijerk in NE, Fisher in Tenessee, etc. It's because there isn't a "revolving door" at the coaching and coordinating positions year after year.

              The biggest problem in professional sports is that the fans and the management want instant change and a scapegoat if a season goes poorly. This is why teams never seem to improve, even with tons of upgrades in personnel and top picks every year. Consistency is the most important trait a team can have.

              Let's take the Sparklers for instance. They took the initiative, finally, to hire a proven, winning coach in Schottenheimer. Even after Schotty, there were rough spots. Years with Doug Flutie at QB, bad personnel decisions with guys like David Boston and Kevin Dyson. Even after a few bad years, they didn't can Marty. They let him "do his thing" and keep his staff together and look what happened. A team that was a perennial doormat is now a powerhouse that even a moron for a HC (Turner) can get into the playoffs. I can guarantee you that it won't last though, because after a 14-2 season they FIRED HIM. Everyone wanted change and "instant success" and look where it got them. The Charger's time is now and they're going to miss it because they had to change the way they did business when they had a good thing going.

              How about Notre Dame or Alabama? Both teams were better off with Willingham and Shula respectively but "change had to be made" and now both are WORSE OFF.

              Sit back, relax, and let Bates do his thing. At least let his contract run its course. If our defense hasn't improved, then we replace him. I think the guy has at least earned a chance with his track record.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by HORSEPOWER 56 View Post
                Speak for yourself, I WANT HIM HERE! I know his system works. It will take time, that's all. we've had a ton of change in coaching staff and personnel over the last 2 years and these changes won't come overnight.
                You want a guy, for consistency's sake, who can only produce half of a good defense? Why? So our run defense can be consistently lousy?


                Originally posted by HORSEPOWER 56 View Post
                I think the guy has at least earned a chance with his track record.
                What track record is that? Consistently producing bottom-feeding run defenses? How does that earn him a chance?
                Last edited by AmericanBronc; 01-02-2008, 12:42 PM.
                The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by AmericanBronc View Post
                  You want a guy, for consistency's sake, who can only produce half of a good defense? Why? So our run defense can be consistently lousy?




                  What track record is that? Consistently producing bottom-feeding run defenses? How does that earn him a chance?
                  I wish I knew how to do the multiple quote thing.....

                  I thought Bates' run defenses were middle of the road, not bottom feeding?
                  Come on you can't blame a defensive coordinator who's scheme wasn't even run the entire season. Even with his scheme not being run, the players still sucked. Seriously, did you watch any of these games? I saw the Broncos barely even pulling off Tampa-2 in some games, and not even being able to play zone most of the time! And this is what killed our run defense the most, not Bate's scheme, but our LB's! These guys were so freakin' inpatient and were constantly blowing their gaps, especially Webster!

                  You really can't blame Bates' for this horrible season all around, and if he gets fired that is sad. The front office cannot use Bates as a scapegoat. I just pray to God that they don't never, ever stumble across these message boards and buy into what the "fans" want.

                  Careful what you wish for, Darth , cause here comes the worst DC in the league...... -stnzd
                  What's that? Need proof? http://dack.com/archive/bob-slowik-must-be-fired.html


                  Goodbye social life...




                  My Mojo!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by delirium_05 View Post
                    I wish I knew how to do the multiple quote thing.....

                    I thought Bates' run defenses were middle of the road, not bottom feeding?
                    Come on you can't blame a defensive coordinator who's scheme wasn't even run the entire season. Even with his scheme not being run, the players still sucked. Seriously, did you watch any of these games? I saw the Broncos barely even pulling off Tampa-2 in some games, and not even being able to play zone most of the time! And this is what killed our run defense the most, not Bate's scheme, but our LB's! These guys were so freakin' inpatient and were constantly blowing their gaps, especially Webster!

                    You really can't blame Bates' for this horrible season all around, and if he gets fired that is sad. The front office cannot use Bates as a scapegoat. I just pray to God that they don't never, ever stumble across these message boards and buy into what the "fans" want.

                    I'm not blaming Bates for this season (though it's possible a lot of it his fault). What I'm saying is that he shouldn't be here in the first place. It's a funny coincidence that his run defenses are notoriously bad... and ours simply got worse under his watch. Not necessarily his fault in one year, but a sad testimony to his record.
                    The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

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                    • #70
                      I really think he can, just gotta give it another season.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
                        I really think he can, just gotta give it another season.
                        I know you do. As do a lot of other people. I'm merely asking, "Why?" What are we putting our faith in? Because the statistics of his past seem to tell a different story.
                        The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by delirium_05 View Post
                          And this is what killed our run defense the most, not Bate's scheme, but our LB's! These guys were so freakin' inpatient and were constantly blowing their gaps, especially Webster!

                          You really can't blame Bates' for this horrible season all around, and if he gets fired that is sad. The front office cannot use Bates as a scapegoat. I just pray to God that they don't never, ever stumble across these message boards and buy into what the "fans" want.

                          Absolutely... Webs is exactly who I was thinking of when I posted about over-running plays.
                          Regarding the part about the FO stumbling across the message boards... LOL

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by AmericanBronc View Post
                            I know you do. As do a lot of other people. I'm merely asking, "Why?" What are we putting our faith in? Because the statistics of his past seem to tell a different story.
                            Green Bay is running a Bates-style defense. Would you go for a trade for pretty much ANY of the personnel on the front 7 that they have running it compared to ours? Especially thinking of OLB and DT's.

                            Look at all of the teams in the league that tried to copy the Tampa cover 2... Were ALL of them successful? The quality of the D is more dependent on the players than the scheme, over the long haul. If all you have going for you is "scheme" without the athletes to back it up, you may have 1 or 2 good games, but over the course of the season, it's the PEOPLE playing it that make the most difference.
                            Like I said before, would you advocate firing the D staff and then not go after ANY players in FA or the draft? I sincerely doubt it. If you are among those who think that the D players we have up front on our roster are all pro, I don't think it would take long for your class to call roll.
                            Last edited by gobroncsnv; 01-06-2008, 09:23 AM.

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