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  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncosTX77 View Post
    Thanks for the laugh. Houston's front 4 aint that good, YET. Theyve been run all over most of the year and only Williams gets any pressure on QB and most of that 10 sacks came in a 6 game span at end of season. That same 'very good defense with a backup secondary' got lit up and torched by second team offense in Jacksonville. Williams, Okoye, Johnson, and Ryans were held in check the entire game by Jax 2nd team Oline.

    I am a huge Texans fan (guess it comes with living in Houston ) and I believe
    Houston is 1 OLB and S away from being all out nasty defense. Unfortunately they have 1 day 1 pick and also have holes on OLINE still.

    BTW That should tell ya the sad state of Denver's Oline.....
    If you're such a huge Texans fan why didn't you know that Williams had 14 sacks, not 10 and that he had 59 tackles. That's a monster year by anybody's standards.

    Amobi Okoye is just a MONSTER at DT. He's exactly the kind of player the Broncos desperately need. He had 32 tackles and 5 1/2 sacks his rookie year for god's sake! How much better would anybody expect him to play? He's a definite future pro-bowl player and had a solid season.

    Travis Johnson, the other DT was solid with 49 tackles. He wasn't as good as Okoye, but he had a better season than any Broncos DT.

    Demeco Ryans had a great season with 128 tackles. He's only 23 years old in his second season and already he's making people notice him. Another definite pro-bowl player in the future. That was a great steal for the 2nd round!

    As for the Jagwads, they are the most physical team in the NFL and beat up on a lot of people. They might very well wind up in the AFC Championship against the Patriots. So, their physically dominating the Texans in a game doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. They totally dominated the Broncos on both sides of the ball in their game.

    The Texans spent a lot of high #1 draft picks on their defensive line and now it's totally solid with good young players and veterans. Look for that team to get better and better as time goes by because they have what is very difficult to obtain -- a dominating defensive line anchored by Mario Williams and Okoye for years to come.

    If the Broncos 2007 season proved anything it's that Shanahan's ignoring the D-line in the draft for so many years finally caught up with the team. The entire season unraveled because the d-line couldn't stop anybody -- couldn't stop the run and couldn't rush the passer. Thus, they couldn't get off the field and couldn't stop other teams from scoring TDs. Thus, the offense was under intense pressure all the time and couldn't do enough to catch up. Shanahan had to try and run the ball even more than usual because he needed long time consuming drives to keep opposing offenses off the field and give the defense time to breathe. This affected Jay Cutler's effectiveness as well, since the offense could rarely risk throwing deep downfield, because they couldn't risk a 3 and out, since that would put even more pressure on their hapless defense.

    See how everything comes back to the D-line? Having a bad D-line totally ruined the entire season and affected even the offense, what plays Shanahan could call, put tremendous pressure on the offense to catch up all the time and made it tough for the Broncos to beat anybody.

    I think it's a tribute to Shanahan's coaching (and some lucky bounces) that the team won as many as 7 games. They probably should have won 5 if it wasn't for that last-second FG to beat the Bills and the lucky bounce of Shanahan calling time-out before Janikowski kicked the winning FG, followed by him missing the re-try and the Broncos winning.

    Denver has a long way to go to have players as good on their d-line as Houston. Hopefully, next year they will bring in some stud DTs, but until they do it's going to be another long season.
    Last edited by Cugel; 01-05-2008, 11:47 AM.

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  • stnzed
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Well, if the Broncos are rebuilding as some will claim, then this is exactly what you would do. Trade out your veterans for players that can help you long-term, which for the Broncos, would be trench guys.

    The fact is, it's going to be at least 2-3 seasons before this defense is back to where we expect it to be, if it ever gets back there under Shanahan. By that time, Champ would have reached and probably exceeded his peak.

    Like I said, I know how special and talented Champ is, and I'm not advocating that we trade him per se. But he's the type of player that is a great addition to an already-established defense - not a player you build your squad around. The Broncos need pass rushers, and they'll never get them with Champ's contract UNLESS they luck out with the draft - which given this team's recent history with drafted defensive linemen, doesn't have me too confident.
    Well if you're gonna advocate trading the best player on the team you should offer up more than just vague projections of what YOU THINK his ability will be at the time YOU THINK this defense will be good again.

    Trading Bailey is a horsesht idea, trading Bly is not much better, unless you can replace his playmaking ability, because the alternative is starting Foxworth or Paymah (<---Who I actually think is a good player).......Please, tell me that's not what you're thinking!

    And your assessment of Denver's recent history in drafting defensive lineman doesn't give me any confidence your opinion that Bailey is expendable......
    Last edited by stnzed; 01-05-2008, 09:57 AM.

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  • SlyBronco
    replied
    Originally posted by B4Bronco6 View Post
    Everyone here is looking towards the future... well there it is. Foxworth is the future!

    In my opinion, Dre Bly is just over paid. Sure he makes plays, but he whiffs. (Don't bring up the argument about the run, because he's done it his whole career).

    Who do you want in the long run? A 32 year old corner, or a 25 year old?
    I like Fox, I think he will be great and we should keep him. He suffered this year from our abysmal Dline just like Bailey and Bly.

    But I think we should keep both right now. Improve as much as possible in the Dline. I mean. We didnt have a good Dline coming in to this year, after injuries, well lol. Its not like we had an good Dline that got injuries and had decent backups. those were our backups and they got hurt or played so badly we had to get rid of them. S.Rice anyone.

    Lets get at least , AT LEAST, an average Dline.

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  • SlyBronco
    replied
    Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
    IMHO, between Bailey and Bly, we have far too much money tied up in the CB position. We've seen that it is a position that is solely dicatated on the play of the dline, so they are non impact players.

    Even for as good as Bailey is, I wouldn't be opposed to doing something with both of them and actually building a great front 7.

    Houston showed Denver that with a very good front 4 you can be a very good defense with a backup secondary.
    Wrong, wrong , just wrong. Yes the line does effect them. But you have to remember just how bad our line was, If we had 2 average corners. we would get our doors blown off.

    We need to get at LEAST an average Dline. AT least. Not the WORST IN THE NFL.

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  • sharp_shepherd
    replied
    Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
    IMHO, between Bailey and Bly, we have far too much money tied up in the CB position. We've seen that it is a position that is solely dicatated on the play of the dline, so they are non impact players.

    Even for as good as Bailey is, I wouldn't be opposed to doing something with both of them and actually building a great front 7.

    Houston showed Denver that with a very good front 4 you can be a very good defense with a backup secondary.
    I can remember the days that the CB position was our weekest on the team and wound up costing us most of our games. So i am not with you on this one. But we do need a great front 4.... Money is always an issue but i think there isn't much available talent.

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  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    Denver's recent history with drafted D-linmen include Dumervil, Crowder, Moss, and Thomas. I could live with that.
    I'll grant you Dumervil.

    However, although Crowder, Thomas, and Moss showed signs that they could be pros...it's still far too early to judge whether or not they'll be long-term keepers.

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  • Dean
    replied
    Denver's recent history with drafted D-linmen include Dumervil, Crowder, Moss, and Thomas. I could live with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    Losing Al Wilson and Champ Bailey in back-to-back seasons sounds good to me......
    Well, if the Broncos are rebuilding as some will claim, then this is exactly what you would do. Trade out your veterans for players that can help you long-term, which for the Broncos, would be trench guys.

    The fact is, it's going to be at least 2-3 seasons before this defense is back to where we expect it to be, if it ever gets back there under Shanahan. By that time, Champ would have reached and probably exceeded his peak.

    Like I said, I know how special and talented Champ is, and I'm not advocating that we trade him per se. But he's the type of player that is a great addition to an already-established defense - not a player you build your squad around. The Broncos need pass rushers, and they'll never get them with Champ's contract UNLESS they luck out with the draft - which given this team's recent history with drafted defensive linemen, doesn't have me too confident.

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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    So you're kinda saying let's trade Bailey and Bly for the Texans defense? Not sure they'll go for that.

    The point is, trading Bailey and Bly does not gaurantee that you'll improve the defense. You'd have better luck improving the players around them.

    It's like Parcells just said, the idea is to keep the good players and surround them with more good players.

    You do not trade a Hall of Famer in the prime of his career and get better!!!!!!

    Losing Al Wilson and Champ Bailey in back-to-back seasons sounds good to me......
    Nah, I never pointed out in trading Champ!!!

    Bly was the one that I pointed out trading for...

    The guy is getting payed too much for really.. the little he brings. I'm not a pure Bly hater, but I never liked giving him all that money.

    I was just showing you how a backup secondary can look THAT good by a good and solid front seven pass rush...

    I would never trade Champ... where in the world did ya get that from!

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  • stnzed
    replied
    Originally posted by B4Bronco6 View Post
    I'm sure your referring to Champ as the Hall of Famer, and not Bly... right?


    Having great CB's isn't a bad idea.... but it is kinda of worthless if you have no front seven to HELP them make plays.

    The point was brought up in the Texans game. They were playing with basically a whole second string secondary! Why were they so good? The front seven..
    So you're kinda saying let's trade Bailey and Bly for the Texans defense? Not sure they'll go for that.

    The point is, trading Bailey and Bly does not gaurantee that you'll improve the defense. You'd have better luck improving the players around them.

    It's like Parcells just said, the idea is to keep the good players and surround them with more good players.

    You do not trade a Hall of Famer in the prime of his career and get better!!!!!!

    Losing Al Wilson and Champ Bailey in back-to-back seasons sounds good to me......

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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by stnzed View Post
    Having a Hall of Famer is a luxury?

    If having great CB's is a bad idea, who would trade for them anyway?......
    I'm sure your referring to Champ as the Hall of Famer, and not Bly... right?


    Having great CB's isn't a bad idea.... but it is kinda of worthless if you have no front seven to HELP them make plays.

    The point was brought up in the Texans game. They were playing with basically a whole second string secondary! Why were they so good? The front seven..

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  • stnzed
    replied
    Having a Hall of Famer is a luxury?

    If having great CB's is a bad idea, who would trade for them anyway?

    Any idea that has Dominique Foxworth starting for this team is a bad idea, imo, he's the worst tackler this side of Ian Gold......A total pansy......
    Last edited by stnzed; 01-03-2008, 05:48 PM.

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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncosTX77 View Post
    I say trade him because of the fact he can play safety or cb, and the change of scenery may do him some good.

    Everyone here is looking towards the future... well there it is. Foxworth is the future!

    In my opinion, Dre Bly is just over paid. Sure he makes plays, but he whiffs. (Don't bring up the argument about the run, because he's done it his whole career).

    Who do you want in the long run? A 32 year old corner, or a 25 year old?

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  • Dean
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with silk on this one. Virtually all of our money defensively is being spent on Bly and Bailey. It's one of the big reasons why we couldn't keep Hayward or Berry, and why we attempted to trade Al Wilson to the Giants.
    Bly and even Bailey were not Broncos when we released Hayward and Berry. We were having difficulty with our cap then.

    Obviously, Bailey and Bly are tremendous players. But shutdown corners are a luxury in this league - having a front 7 that can stop the run and pressure the quarterback is a necessity if you want to win Super Bowls. I don't know how we expect to get better at rushing the quarterback when our money to spend on the defensive line is limted because of what we're spending on the secondary. We can wait and hope that our drafted players will pan out. But prior to this season, the Broncos had drafted 13 defensive linemen in the draft under Shanahan, and only Dumervil is the remaining player of those 13.
    I think that we now have the ends to get the job done 'in house'. If we can get a pair of good (not necessarily great) D-tackles, imagine what kind of defense we could have in a year or two.

    It does sound ridiculous to even consider trading a Champ Bailey or Dre Bly for anything. But also consider that Bailey is coming off a down year, is getting older, and his trade value will probably not be any higher right now sometime down the road. I'm telling you guys there's no way this defense will ever be dominant unless we get a pass rush, and you're not going to be able to obtain and keep dominant pass rushers spending the money we do on Bly and Bailey.
    The cap keeps going up. The money we spend on Bly and Bailey by next year may make their contracts look much more reasonable.

    Dumervil is as good a pass rusher as Hayward and Berry. If either Crowder or Moss can get a push from the other side, we might have a pass rush very soon. I realize we as fans have no idea how big an IF it actually is but the front office probably has a good idea.

    If no pass rush is in the Broncos' immediate future, then maybe deal one of our corners but not both.

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  • BRONCOS_OWN_U16
    replied
    Originally posted by silkamilkamonic View Post
    IMHO, between Bailey and Bly, we have far too much money tied up in the CB position. We've seen that it is a position that is solely dicatated on the play of the dline, so they are non impact players.

    Even for as good as Bailey is, I wouldn't be opposed to doing something with both of them and actually building a great front 7.

    Houston showed Denver that with a very good front 4 you can be a very good defense with a backup secondary.
    yeah bailey is non impact. i mean because bailey plays for our team he cant make any impact at all but if he was on the texans he would of had 20 picks by now.

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