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Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates should stay...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    There's clearly a measure of fandom around here that believes Jim Bates should be given at least one more season to coach the defense for the Broncos, but I have yet to hear a compelling argument or reason as to why that is, given the historic collapse of our defense and the embarrassing losses we endured as a result of our shotty defense.

    So, I'm ready to hear it - why exactly should Jim Bates return to the Broncos next season?
    Ok mojo, check it out

    If Bates "scheme" is to employ 2 huge defensive tackles on the d-line, and spread the defensive ends wide and play man to man in the secondary, thats not a bad scheme. With the ends being so wide, and the tackles so big, DJ will have plays to make all day. We've seen he can be a tackling machine, and will only improve in year 2. Our outside LB's have the speed to cut off the outside, but we've had tackling issues. I remember training camp this year....Bates was known to "bellow out" instructions to his defense. I'm sure tackling will be stressed.

    As it stands now with Champ and Bly, man to man definitely seems to be our strongpoint, so again the scheme looks like it would work.

    Supposedly, the only problem with the scheme this past year was we didnt have the tackles up front to clog the lane and keep the LB core free. Now this is where it gets complicated for me, because if we had Sam Adams, Gerard Warren, and Jimmy Kennedy all here in front of Marcus Thomas.....how was it none of them stuck around? Makes me question what they are really looking for(what makes you think Bates was in charge of personnel). So I guess I have no compelling argument for you, but I'm just on the side that maybe they wont be so foolish as to "go cut happy until you find there's only scrubs left" again.

    The only reason I want to see Bates back is because I STRONGLY feel if we change coordinators again, we'll be headed right back to a state of confusion on our defense and another poor year will follow for sure....we need stability, we need big defensive tackles.
    Last edited by Return of Lava; 01-04-2008, 09:14 AM.
    dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

    I tried to warn ya.

    Comment


    • #17
      The Broncos DLINE was the worse they just flat out sucked.

      We all have to sit at are blog plates and fork up the truth.
      :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hadez View Post
        I have to call BS on this.

        He got a defense that was pretty good and only had problems rushing the passer.

        Besides injury problems I am pretty sure he was key in every single defensive move made atleast until the season started and his defense started to look bad.

        edit - Been pretty harsh on Bates and in all fairness he should be given a chance to evaluate the season. If I was Shanny I would tell Bates to analyze the season, identify the problems, identify the errors, and present a general plan of correction for 2008. If his report sounds honest and has some good ideas then I would keep him for another year.

        You need to remember most of the players after injuries Bates picked up were cut from other teams. Ever since Jr. High, I can remember coach's always saying "THEIR WAS A REASON HE WAS CUT". If these guys could not make the squad else were, what makes you think they were quality players coming in. Honestly they were the only ones available.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post
          I would like to see Bates gone to but I need to be honest with the situation. Bates should get another year because................

          1.) Last year Coyers system was falling apart when we needed it to work the most. So Bates came into a situation that was broken.

          2.) Bates could be the master mind the Broncos were looking for but in all reality look at the personal he had to work with when he entered the system. Yes we had stand outs but when you loose your MLB and try to patch work a line backing core, a disaster was inevitable.

          3.) Did we expect a miracle from Bates his first year? (I sure did) But in reality the fans set the BAR WAY TO HIGH for Bates and his first year as a coach.

          4.) Injuries after the Dallas Pre season game started more patch work on a shaky system. (the team was not ready to play at Dallas's level and was well over worked during that week)

          5.) Can you honestly build a Super Bowl Defense in 51 weeks? The answer is no. This takes time.

          6.) MORE INJURIES
          1. and even when falling apart, it still was a better coached and better run defense then what bates produced...fact...did we see multiple penalties for two many men on the field with coyer...we did all season with bates...that shows players dont know whos where, whos what

          despite falling apart last season the defense was still 8th in scores allowed, 12th against the rush,,his lowest ranking
          bates was 30th in rushing, 28th in scores allowed

          2. he lost his MLb but in reality dj preformed alot better then wilson did in his last few years here...as for the personal...dude he picked them!!!...if they couldnt handle then maybe he cannot evaluate talent...in any case i would be the talent and skills of this team and last years team mirror each other closely

          3. did i expect a miracle...........no...did i expect a highly regarded defensive coach to come in, and at the very least, improve our defense...yes...did he? ..no

          4. no what we seen then was a insight to the team of today.... out of position, bad schemes, confusion...we only kidded ourselfs that they were learning a new system and it would take time...it took about five games before shanny decided it was junk

          5. can you improve a defense in one season? yes...with the right coach...can you ruin a decent defense in one year? yes with the right coach

          6. part of the game you coach around them
          sigpic
          when do native Americans become human and not mascots

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
            Ok mojo, check it out

            If Bates "scheme" is to employ 2 huge defensive tackles on the d-line, and spread the defensive ends wide and play man to man in the secondary, thats not a bad scheme. With the ends being so wide, and the tackles so big, DJ will have plays to make all day. We've seen he can be a tackling machine, and will only improve in year 2. Our outside LB's have the speed to cut off the outside, but we've had tackling issues. I remember training camp this year....Bates was known to "bellow out" instructions to his defense. I'm sure tackling will be stressed.

            As it stands now with Champ and Bly, man to man definitely seems to be our strongpoint, so again the scheme looks like it would work.

            Supposedly, the only problem with the scheme this past year was we didnt have the tackles up front to clog the lane and keep the LB core free. Now this is where it gets complicated for me, because if we had Sam Adams, Gerard Warren, and Jimmy Kennedy all here in front of Marcus Thomas.....how was it none of them stuck around? Makes me question what Bates is really looking for. So I guess I have no compelling argument for you, but I'm just on the side that maybe they wont be so foolish as to "go cut happy until you find there's only scrubs left" again.

            The only reason I want to see Bates back is because I STRONGLY feel if we change coordinators again, we'll be headed right back to a state of confusion on our defense and another poor year will follow for sure....we need stability, we need big defensive tackles.
            Do you think that if it were as simple as 'Denver just needs two big defensive tackles', that we would have done it in the offseason? (We did BTW but I'm just asking).

            The fact is, you need two stellar defensive tackles for Bates' scheme to have a chance. How many teams even have one great DT? If it were as simple as that, Denver could have gotten a stout DT or two years ago.

            Again, if Bates' success hinges on us getting two stout DTs this offseason, you might as well fire him now.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
              The Broncos DLINE was the worse they just flat out sucked.

              We all have to sit at are blog plates and fork up the truth.

              well under coyers last three years the team avereged 33.6 sacks per game
              keep in mind that was with the blitz happy 04-05 seasons
              this year we got ..surprise 33 sacks

              the line has always been a problem...its just now under bates the rest of the d sucks
              sigpic
              when do native Americans become human and not mascots

              Comment


              • #22
                The thing is, the pass rush has been awful for several years now, save for the 2004 season when we had Berry and Hayward. Yet, our defense managed to at least maintaint a top-10 spot under Robinson, Rhodes, and Coyer. Worse yet, Bailey's play significantly declined under the scheme, as well.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by arapaho View Post
                  well under coyers last three years the team avereged 33.6 sacks per game
                  keep in mind that was with the blitz happy 04-05 seasons
                  this year we got ..surprise 33 sacks

                  the line has always been a problem...its just now under bates the rest of the d sucks
                  33 sacks per game? That's gotta be some kind of record...
                  In Manning I trust.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    We can say what we want to about Coyer, but at least he knew how to stop the run. Yeah, teams had all day to pass on us - but he did his best with the wretched D-line that was given to him.

                    Under Bates, we couldn't stop anybody. Huggie Bear's son ran all over us, people! And from what I've read, his defenses' have always been soft on the run.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The fact is, the players needed either didn’t perform (Rice, Adams), never showed up (Wilkinson), or were injured (Ekuban, Green, Holdman), or were rookies.

                      Jim Bates system HAD to be scrapped for those reasons. Let see how this offseason plays out. I’d like to see more of the players needed for his system brought in. I can’t imagine a season going as disastrously as this one. If after next year, he has the players he needs and the system is still a colossal failure, then absolutely get rid of the guy. But the system has been very successful elsewhere, and I’d like to give it a fair shot.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Give me a reason why he shouldn't?

                        All of Denver's defensive free-agent former big names, were clear-cut under-performers.

                        The loss of Al Wilson's leadership was devastating. Jarvis Moss went out with an injury.

                        The scheme didn't work.

                        I say give him another year. Let him prove if he can re-deem himself. I think it's fair, and financially it also makes sense, because Bates signed up for 3 years.

                        Who knows if there is really a better coach out there on defense?
                        sigpic

                        In this picture, Rivers explains why he thinks he is so good.

                        Is that Y=LT?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                          Do you think that if it were as simple as 'Denver just needs two big defensive tackles', that we would have done it in the offseason? (We did BTW but I'm just asking).

                          The fact is, you need two stellar defensive tackles for Bates' scheme to have a chance. How many teams even have one great DT? If it were as simple as that, Denver could have gotten a stout DT or two years ago.

                          Again, if Bates' success hinges on us getting two stout DTs this offseason, you might as well fire him now.
                          We dont need stellar DT's we just need DT's better than Amon Gordon and Antwon Burton, and thats not hard to do at all, lmao. Hell, with Mckinley and Peterson, we were much better, but even they are below average as a tandem imo. A simple upgrade, somebody who can hold ground at the line, and maybe even penetrate sometimes, would do wonders for our run defense.

                          Like I said, I dont know why we didnt stick with the tackles we had, even Mike Myers was a good run stopper, but him and Veal didnt weigh enough. I was confused by the cuts, but the #1 reason we SHOULDNT fire him is cause we'd have to start over AGAIN with someone new.

                          I dont think Coyer was a better coach than anybody, but one thing he had was a stable core of guys did he not? I think you're underestimating the fact that the players have to know each other and gain chemistry, therein lies discipline within the scheme. We had so many 12 men on the field penalties, cause guys dont know their assignments! This is not a permanent problem mojo, its cause we're in year 1! Again, it doesnt get much better than what we had to start the year this year, if we're looking for stopgap tackles, but more change is the last thing we need. You cant fall into the "it didnt work this year so we should fire somebody" mentality.... you'll never succeed.
                          Last edited by Return of Lava; 01-04-2008, 09:32 AM.
                          dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                          I tried to warn ya.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Fire Him A.s.a.p.!!!!!!!

                            He was worse than Coyer and Coyer was beyond terrible!!!!

                            We may need a WHOLE new coaching staff....

                            I owe CP's to: no one

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                              The fact is, the players needed either didn’t perform (Rice, Adams), never showed up (Wilkinson), or were injured (Ekuban, Green, Holdman), or were rookies.

                              Jim Bates system HAD to be scrapped for those reasons. Let see how this offseason plays out. I’d like to see more of the players needed for his system brought in. I can’t imagine a season going as disastrously as this one. If after next year, he has the players he needs and the system is still a colossal failure, then absolutely get rid of the guy. But the system has been very successful elsewhere, and I’d like to give it a fair shot.
                              I don't necessarily believe it had to be scrapped, anymore than I believe it we had to cut Warren or move DJ to the middle or bring in Bly, Adams, or Rice.

                              In fact, once the vets underperformed and the rookies were put in, that would have been THE PERFECT time to run the scheme. Even if the defense was awful, at least the players you drafted to play in the scheme would have gotten a full season under their belts.

                              Shanahan scrapped it though because he knew the Broncos didn't have the players needed to run the scheme. And I think this hope that we'll obtain these players in the offseason (which, at the very least, are two outstanding clogging DTs) is unrealistic, especially given this team's needs on the offensive line and Bailey's and Bly's salary.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                                We can say what we want to about Coyer, but at least he knew how to stop the run. Yeah, teams had all day to pass on us - but he did his best with the wretched D-line that was given to him.

                                Under Bates, we couldn't stop anybody. Huggie Bear's son ran all over us, people! And from what I've read, his defenses' have always been soft on the run.
                                I seem to recall last year in the last 5-6 games teams running on the Broncos without much difficulty. The defense really faded down the stretch. When Wilson got hurt, Ferguson, Brandon, etc, the defense really took a nose dive. Any scheme is worthless if you don’t have the players. And the Broncos tried to bring in the players – how many DE’s and DT’s did they sign or chase? Pretty much all of them!

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