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Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates should stay...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
    We dont need stellar DT's we just need DT's better than Amon Gordon and Antwon Burton, and thats not hard to do at all, lmao. Hell, with Mckinley and Peterson, we were much better, but even they are below average as a tandem imo. A simple upgrade, somebody who can hold ground at the line, and maybe even penetrate sometimes, would do wonders for our run defense.

    Like I said, I dont know why we didnt stick with the tackles we had, even Mike Myers was a good run stopper, but him and Veal didnt weigh enough. I was confused by the cuts, but the #1 reason we SHOULDNT fire him is cause we'd have to start over AGAIN with someone new.

    I dont think Coyer was a better coach than anybody, but one thing he had was a stable core of guys did he not? I think you're underestimating the fact that the players have to know each other and gain chemistry, therein lies discipline within the scheme. We had so many 12 men on the field penalties, cause guys dont know their assignments! This is not a permanent problem mojo, its cause we're in year 1! Again, it doesnt get much better than what we had to start the year this year, if we're looking for stopgap tackles, but more change is the last thing we need. You cant fall into the "it didnt work this year so we should fire somebody" mentality.... you'll never succeed.
    I think you're oversimplifying the problem.

    The Broncos don't simply need a couple of 'better' DTs. If they needed that, then Adams and Warren would have been more sufficient, while rotating Green and our rookies in there, as well.

    The fact is, you need two physical, powerful, and giant DTs to run Bates' scheme, and I simply don't believe the Broncos can obtain those this offseason, which will put us right back to square one with trying to run his scheme without the right players next season.

    This is exactly why you don't bring in scheme guys. And you may not be a fan of Coyer's, but he certainly looks like a genius now.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by humpbobby View Post
      The Defense was pretty bad '06 season
      But NOWHERE near as bad as this year.

      Defensive Leaders 2007
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      28 Denver 5376 336.0 2282 142.6 3094 193.4 409 25.6

      Defensive Leaders 2006
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      14 Denver 5223 326.4 1813 113.3 3410 213.1 305 19.1

      Defensive Leaders 2005
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      15 Denver 5006 312.9 1363 85.2 3643 227.7 258 16.1

      Defensive Leaders 2004
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      4 Denver 4459 278.7 1512 94.5 2947 184.2 304 19.0

      Defensive Leaders 2003
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      4 Denver 4433 277.1 1605 100.3 2828 176.8 301 18.8

      Defensive Leaders 2002
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      6 Denver 4826 301.6 1489 93.1 3337 208.6 344 21.5

      Conversely, our Offensive stats:

      Offensive Leaders 2007
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      11 Denver 5541 346.3 1957 122.3 3584 224.0 320 20.0

      Offensive Leaders 2006
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      21 Denver 4951 309.4 2152 134.5 2799 174.9 319 19.9

      Offensive Leaders 2005
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      5 Denver 5766 360.4 2539 158.7 3227 201.7 395 24.7

      Offensive Leaders 2004
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      5 Denver 6332 395.8 2333 145.8 3999 249.9 381 23.8

      Offensive Leaders 2003
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      7 Denver 5598 349.9 2629 164.3 2969 185.6 381 23.8

      Offensive Leaders 2002
      RNK NAME YDS YPG RUSH RUSH YPG PASS PASS YPG PTS PTS/G
      3 Denver 6090 380.6 2266 141.6 3824 239.0 392 24.5


      Coyer isn't looking so bad now compared to Bates. We know that a big reason for the drop-off in offense is Kubiak leaving and Cutler coming in. But the argument of Bates doesn't have players for his system is hogwash. He has players that spent an ENTIRE OFFSEASON learning the new system, 4 preseason games, and 5 regular season games to find out it doesn't work. Not here. We have been, and always will be, built on speed to take advantage of the altitude here. Sam Couldn't run 10 yards to get a case of doughnuts, but Doom will run 25 yards to chase down the QB. BMarsh will run 50 yards to move the chains on a 2nd and 3.

      Time for Bates to go and get a DC tailored for our players, with a system that works.


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      • #33
        Oh, Coyer looks like a genius? Why, because he was in Tampa with an already-developed scheme? Yeah, makes sense to me.

        You're not listening to any reason anyway... don't know why anyone's even bothering to convince you.
        In Manning I trust.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
          I seem to recall last year in the last 5-6 games teams running on the Broncos without much difficulty. The defense really faded down the stretch. When Wilson got hurt, Ferguson, Brandon, etc, the defense really took a nose dive. Any scheme is worthless if you don’t have the players. And the Broncos tried to bring in the players – how many DE’s and DT’s did they sign or chase? Pretty much all of them!
          But that's just it - you brought in all these guys, and the defense never improved UNTIL the scheme was scrapped and the playcalling taken away from Bates. And even then, it was still a mess - it was just more of a managable mess.

          And as far as us fading last season, even with that being the case, the defense still didn't look anywhere near as bad as it did this season.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
            Oh, Coyer looks like a genius? Why, because he was in Tampa with an already-developed scheme? Yeah, makes sense to me.

            You're not listening to any reason anyway... don't know why anyone's even bothering to convince you.
            No, because he kept this defense afloat with an abysmal defensive line, and having no control over personnel like Bates had this season.
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            • #36
              He also didn't deal with the injuries that Bates had to cope with this season. How you can even compare the two, especially considering that Coyer was given more than one year to implement his scheme.
              In Manning I trust.

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              • #37
                Let me ask you something guys...do you really think that Shanahan expected the defense to be worse in '07 than it was in '06? Even given the injuries and losing Wilson, do you really think he thought it would take 2-3 seasons or more before he saw Bates' scheme pay off? He scrapped the scheme five weeks into the season! Obviously then he knew it wasn't working. And when asked if he was disappointed with Bates' scheme, he answered (and I quote) '....(after a long pause and a deep breath) That's a really good question.'
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
                  He also didn't deal with the injuries that Bates had to cope with this season. How you can even compare the two, especially considering that Coyer was given more than one year to implement his scheme.
                  Compare Coyer's first year with no defenisve line save for Pryce and no Champ Bailey or John Lynch, to Bates first year with Adams, Dumervil, Bly, Lynch, and Bailey, and you may eat your words.
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                  • #39
                    because very rarely does a DC come in in the first year and make a playoff or superbowl contender, bates scheme is good we just dont have the right personnel, however i highly belive shanny will follow bates scheme when he looks for players this offseason. there is no reason marcus thomas cant produce with a true solid NT next to him, couple that with a rotation of mckinely and another solid guy like mallard, and are interior is exactly what bates could work with. ekuban would greatly help out our end situation and with another year of expirience under his belt dumervil should keep imroving against the run.

                    A better, bigger,stronger, powerful d-line gives bates what he needs let him try this offseason to make amends. its only year 1, look at what his scheme is doing in GB after 2 years, new schemes dont work overnight!

                    I for 1 say give bates 1 more year, because to much chnage just makes matters worse not better. if he fails next year along with shanny well.......




                    I am against all the fire threads, people wanted coyers head and look where it got us. I really think shanny made a mistake letting coyer go, but bates is a proven DC just give it a another year
                    Last edited by elevation INC; 01-04-2008, 09:50 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by elevation INC View Post
                      because very rarely does a DC come in in the first year and make a playoff or superbowl contender, bates scheme is good we just dont have the right personnel, however i highly belive shanny will follow bates scheme when he looks for players this offseason. there is no reason marcus thomas cant produce with a true solid NT next to him, couple that with a rotation of mckinely and another solid guy like mallard, and are interior is exactly what bates could work with. ekuban would greatly help out our end situation and with another year of expirience under his belt dumervil should keep imroving against the run.

                      A better, bigger,stronger, powerful d-line gives bates what he needs let him try this offseason to make amends. its only year 1, look at what his scheme is doing in GB after 2 years, new schemes dont work overnight!

                      I for 1 say give bates 1 more year, because to much chnage just makes matters worse not better. if he fails next year along with shanny well.......




                      I am against all the fire threads, people wanted coyers head and look where it got us. I really think shanny made a mistake letting coyer go, but bates is a proven DC just give it a another year
                      I agree that firing Coyer was a mistake. But again, how is it Coyer was able to do significantly better with less talent in his first season than Bates was his first year with at least decent talent?
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                      • #41
                        And once more - the Broncos defensive line has been a problem for pretty much Shanahan's entire tenure here, save for a season here and there. So what makes you convinced that it will finally get better next year?
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                          I think you're oversimplifying the problem.

                          The Broncos don't simply need a couple of 'better' DTs. If they needed that, then Adams and Warren would have been more sufficient, while rotating Green and our rookies in there, as well.

                          The fact is, you need two physical, powerful, and giant DTs to run Bates' scheme, and I simply don't believe the Broncos can obtain those this offseason, which will put us right back to square one with trying to run his scheme without the right players next season.

                          This is exactly why you don't bring in scheme guys. And you may not be a fan of Coyer's, but he certainly looks like a genius now.
                          Coyer - genius?

                          You cant be serious...... Coyer had Mike Myers, Gerard Warren(upgrades), Al wilson, DJ williams and Ian Gold and a few years of chemistry in his front 7! Bates has nothing like that, is it really that hard to understand?

                          Its not a stretch to say Bates will improve upon the defense in his second year, because the players will have another year experience in their positions and to be honest it cant get much worse. This year was horrible yes, but in reality, our team is the way it is and no "scheme" is gonna work to perfection with our personnel especially up front.


                          But since you're not really listening to reason I'll give you the biggest reason to keep Bates..........cause you wouldnt know the next step to take if we DID fire him. Who you gonna hire except for someody who was also just recently fired from another team?

                          You could bring in the best coordinator in the world, and keep the same personnel we have now, and we'd improve due to them having a year together. But you can bring in the best coordinator in the world, and also start Taylor Jennings and Kyle "Big Mush" Jones as our new starting defensive tackles (if they sound like no-names, they are I made the up). They each weigh 300 lbs of marshmallow flesh. And our defense would again get drilled repeatedly.

                          Below average tackles + no chemistry = poor run defense

                          An upgrade at tackle + another year = automatic improvement

                          Simple math
                          dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                          I tried to warn ya.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                            Coyer - genius?

                            You cant be serious...... Coyer had Mike Myers, Gerard Warren(upgrades), Al wilson, DJ williams and Ian Gold and a few years of chemistry in his front 7! Bates has nothing like that, is it really that hard to understand?

                            Its not a stretch to say Bates will improve upon the defense in his second year, because the players will have another year experience in their positions and to be honest it cant get much worse. This year was horrible yes, but in reality, our team is the way it is and no "scheme" is gonna work to perfection with our personnel especially up front.


                            But since you're not really listening to reason I'll give you the biggest reason to keep Bates..........cause you wouldnt know the next step to take if we DID fire him. Who you gonna hire except for someody who was also just recently fired from another team?

                            You could bring in the best coordinator in the world, and keep the same personnel we have now, and we'd improve due to them having a year together. But you can bring in the best coordinator in the world, and also start Taylor Jennings and Kyle "Big Mush" Jones as our new starting defensive tackles (if they sound like no-names, they are I made the up). They each weigh 300 lbs of marshmallow flesh. And our defense would again get drilled repeatedly.

                            Below average tackles + no chemistry = poor run defense

                            An upgrade at tackle + another year = automatic improvement

                            Simple math
                            LOL! Are you kidding me? We're now praising the Browncos - who were here for a total of 2 seasons and have been universally panned as one of the most underachieving defensive groups in history?! And we're now saying Warren was great when it was Bates who shipped him off to Oakland?

                            Priceless!
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                            • #44
                              Dude, you're hopeless.

                              You really believe Sam Adams was a talent? You think he's an improvement over ANYONE? If not, why do you keep mentioning him in the "Denver's defense has so much more talent than it did when Coyer was here" argument? The guy couldn't move. Couldn't get up field. And because his balance and knees were both SO bad, you could almost just let him go and tip over. The guy sucked out loud. And his inability to get up field and force plays to the outside where faster players could swallow them up was a MAJOR reason our defense didn't do anything this season.

                              You can keep believing that we had all the right talent this season, that everything was fine as long as we kept Warren... that's your right. But Bates wasn't out there missing tackles, and there were a LOT of missed tackles this season. There were a LOT of over-run plays. There was very LITTLE gap discipline.

                              Coaching doesn't mean a thing if the players don't execute.

                              Also, you haven't answered my question. Who would we replace Bates with? Who IS the answer, since you're so certain Bates ISN'T?



                              There is no simple solution here. Firing Bates only accomplishes what the next DC accomplishes. It's insanity to keep turning over personnel and coaches and expect consistency.
                              In Manning I trust.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                                I agree that firing Coyer was a mistake. But again, how is it Coyer was able to do significantly better with less talent in his first season than Bates was his first year with at least decent talent?
                                your right bates had a worse first year, he tried a scheme with bronco personnel that just didnt work or fit. where as coyer had what he need for his d, his was a blitz happy schme and it worked untill our safties ,and backers gotten eaten alive in coverage.


                                i think we should have upgraded the line and kept coyer and contiued the blizt d, but since we have bates now..........


                                i think we should give him a chance to fix things, the team was inconsistent yes....but they were improving from the beginning of the season, and upgraded tackle and more chemistry equals improvement.........give the guy a chnace to get the players he needs, he made attempts to get the tackles and players he needed, those players just decided to play without heart or passion, so u move on and try again......

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