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Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates should stay...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    LOL! Are you kidding me? We're now praising the Browncos - who were here for a total of 2 seasons and have been universally panned as one of the most underachieving defensive groups in history?! And we're now saying Warren was great when it was Bates who shipped him off to Oakland?

    Priceless!
    I do like how you dodged the part about what next step would you take once you fired Bates, but what makes you think Bates was the one who shiped off Warren? Shanny has the final say in football operations and I dont think he gave it up to a first year coordinator. Its obvious Myers and Warren were not world beater, but they WERE upgrades over Burton and Gordon, you can lol all day. I'm not praising anybody, but lets stop and realize YOU are the one calling Coyer a genius. We didnt struggle with the run like this while the browncos were here. Makes just as much sense as praising Coyer, only the PLAYERS play the game, and are ultimately responsible.
    dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

    I tried to warn ya.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
      Dude, you're hopeless.

      You really believe Sam Adams was a talent? You think he's an improvement over ANYONE? If not, why do you keep mentioning him in the "Denver's defense has so much more talent than it did when Coyer was here" argument? The guy couldn't move. Couldn't get up field. And because his balance and knees were both SO bad, you could almost just let him go and tip over. The guy sucked out loud. And his inability to get up field and force plays to the outside where faster players could swallow them up was a MAJOR reason our defense didn't do anything this season.

      You can keep believing that we had all the right talent this season, that everything was fine as long as we kept Warren... that's your right. But Bates wasn't out there missing tackles, and there were a LOT of missed tackles this season. There were a LOT of over-run plays. There was very LITTLE gap discipline.

      Coaching doesn't mean a thing if the players don't execute.

      Also, you haven't answered my question. Who would we replace Bates with? Who IS the answer, since you're so certain Bates ISN'T?



      There is no simple solution here. Firing Bates only accomplishes what the next DC accomplishes. It's insanity to keep turning over personnel and coaches and expect consistency.
      I didn't say Adams was great. But I do believe our talent going into this season was much greater than Coyer's first season as DC, and Coyer did a much better job than Bates did.

      And I'm not answering your question as to who to replace Bates with. That question always opens the door to an endless argument that goes nowhere fast.

      I'm just trying to get you to open your eyes and mind a bit and realize that this talk of 'he just needs to get the players that fit his scheme' isn't as simple as that, especially when his scheme was already scrapped five games into the season and will have to be reimplemented with new guys next season IF he stays.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
        I do like how you dodged the part about what next step would you take once you fired Bates, but what makes you think Bates was the one who shiped off Warren? Shanny has the final say in football operations and I dont think he gave it up to a first year coordinator. Its obvious Myers and Warren were not world beater, but they WERE upgrades over Burton and Gordon, you can lol all day. I'm not praising anybody, but lets stop and realize YOU are the one calling Coyer a genius. We didnt struggle with the run like this while the browncos were here. Makes just as much sense as praising Coyer, only the PLAYERS play the game, and are ultimately responsible.
        Because Shanahan has stated several times that he conceded virtually all personnel decisions on defense to Jim Bates, and Jim Bates confirmed that.
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        • #49
          I'm oversimplifying. Okay. This from the person who wants to fire Bates and has NO idea who to replace him with.

          Good grief.
          In Manning I trust.

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          • #50
            I can't give any reasons other than I have always believed that any coordinator needs 2 seasons to be given a fair chance. Just as I have always said that I think any HC really needs 3 seasons to be given a fair chance. I have always said that about coordinators for other teams, and said that when people were screaming for Coyer to be fired after year 1 here.

            Other than that, I don't have any reasons why he should stay. Thats the best I have here. I can't understand how its possible our defense looked so absolutely horrible this season.

            As far as Coyer I don't think he looks like a genius. Just as I say that Bum Phillips is looking good due to the fact he is coaching a team Parcells built, Coyer is looking good because he has taken over a veteran defense that has always been good. Meaning, give them another year each (three for PHillips) to put their own fingerprints on the team, and judge how they look.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
              I'm oversimplifying. Okay. This from the person who wants to fire Bates and has NO idea who to replace him with.

              Good grief.
              Oh, I have ideas and possibilities.

              I'm just not going to share them with you, because again, it's a useless argument that goes nowhere, and isn't relevant to the topic about Bates' performance and what he's done to earn a 2nd year.
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              • #52
                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                Because Shanahan has stated several times that he conceded virtually all personnel decisions on defense to Jim Bates, and Jim Bates confirmed that.
                ok thats only one point in my post what about the rest?

                still formulating a response or is this all i have to go by?

                let me know
                dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                I tried to warn ya.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                  I can't give any reasons other than I have always believed that any coordinator needs 2 seasons to be given a fair chance. Just as I have always said that I think any HC really needs 3 seasons to be given a fair chance. I have always said that about coordinators for other teams, and said that when people were screaming for Coyer to be fired after year 1 here.

                  Other than that, I don't have any reasons why he should stay. Thats the best I have here. I can't understand how its possible our defense looked so absolutely horrible this season.

                  As far as Coyer I don't think he looks like a genius. Just as I say that Bum Phillips is looking good due to the fact he is coaching a team Parcells built, Coyer is looking good because he has taken over a veteran defense that has always been good. Meaning, give them another year each (three for PHillips) to put their own fingerprints on the team, and judge how they look.
                  Those are fair points.

                  But do you allow Bates to try and work his scheme again with a bunch of new players again next season, or do you tell him he has to coach what he has and do his best with those players?
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                    ok thats only one point in my post what about the rest?

                    still formulating a response or is this all i have to go by?

                    let me know
                    Well...you're saying that the Browncos were better than what Bates had this season, and whereas that may or may not be true, the fact is Bates is the one that shipped them all off - save for Ekuban- when he got here.
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                      Oh, I have ideas and possibilities.

                      I'm just not going to share them with you, because again, it's a useless argument that goes nowhere, and isn't relevant to the topic about Bates' performance and what he's done to earn a 2nd year.
                      You mean you dont want your ideas shot down on who we should replace him with, like you're shooting everyone else's on why we should keep him.

                      I do believe you're blinded by your own bias and hard-headedness.

                      Its all fair game to debate about firing the coordinator we have

                      But its useless and irrelevant to speak about who we would get instead?

                      ok guy
                      dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                      I tried to warn ya.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                        Oh, I have ideas and possibilities.

                        I'm just not going to share them with you, because again, it's a useless argument that goes nowhere, and isn't relevant to the topic about Bates' performance and what he's done to earn a 2nd year.
                        Right. Because this argument IS going somewhere.
                        In Manning I trust.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          do you really want a compelling reason?

                          Doesn't sound like you really want to hear a compelling reason other than your own reason to get rid of him,MOJO.

                          but hear goes mine......

                          Bates history has shown that his system works with time. There is a lot of things that go into implementing any new scheme on offense or defense.

                          I never thought that he had the proper personnel to play his system. Though he has some say so on the defense, player personnel decisions are the GM's decision isn't it? I believe that's Shanny job isn't? Everyone takes a hit here not just Bates. Let's stick with him for another year and see if history repeats itself like it did in GB and Mia. If not then 09 will be a big year of transition for everyone on this team including shanny cause the offense wasn't that good either.

                          My only issue with Bates was that he didn't adjust well. You shouldn't have to have the head coach tell you to change your defense. Bates should have adjusted after the SD game and I don't know if he wouldn't or couldn't untill his back was against the wall.

                          Other then that, give the man a chance and bring some younger and more athletic defensive players and see what happens.
                          Give denver a real MLB and move DJ to WLB. give denver a real free safety and not one who arrives 20 seconds after the play is over. and a DT that needs two people to block them not one. It seems like a tall order but not impossible if personnel decisions are made smartly on draft day and via FA.
                          I know money is tight but this draft is very important not only for bates but for shanny too especially with 8 picks on the board.
                          Bronco fan 33 years and counting, GO BRONCOS!

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                            You mean you dont want your ideas shot down on who we should replace him with, like you're shooting everyone else's on why we should keep him.

                            I do believe you're blinded by your own bias and hard-headedness.

                            Its all fair game to debate about firing the coordinator we have

                            But its useless and irrelevant to speak about who we would get instead?

                            oh ok
                            I'm not shooting down anyone's ideas. What I've heard so far is basically 'we didn't have the players' and 'he deserves one more year', when the fact is, we probably won't have his players next season and we'll be back to square one with trying to reimplement his scheme in training camp.
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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                              Well...you're saying that the Browncos were better than what Bates had this season, and whereas that may or may not be true, the fact is Bates is the one that shipped them all off - save for Ekuban- when he got here.
                              Well, like everybody knows, I was in big disagreement of our cuts, we were left with Gordon and Burton as our defensive tackles.

                              Just let me ask, do you think Burton and Gordon could start for ANY team, in ANY scheme, and stop the run?
                              dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                              I tried to warn ya.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by bklynbronco View Post
                                Doesn't sound like you really want to hear a compelling reason other than your own reason to get rid of him,MOJO.

                                but hear goes mine......

                                Bates history has shown that his system works with time. There is a lot of things that go into implementing any new scheme on offense or defense.

                                I never thought that he had the proper personnel to play his system. Though he has some say so on the defense, player personnel decisions are the GM's decision isn't it? I believe that's Shanny job isn't? Everyone takes a hit here not just Bates. Let's stick with him for another year and see if history repeats itself like it did in GB and Mia. If not then 09 will be a big year of transition for everyone on this team including shanny cause the offense wasn't that good either.

                                My only issue with Bates was that he didn't adjust well. You shouldn't have to have the head coach tell you to change your defense. Bates should have adjusted after the SD game and I don't know if he wouldn't or couldn't untill his back was against the wall.

                                Other then that, give the man a chance and bring some younger and more athletic defensive players and see what happens.
                                Give denver a real MLB and move DJ to WLB. give denver a real free safety and not one who arrives 20 seconds after the play is over. and a DT that needs two people to block them not one. It seems like a tall order but not impossible if personnel decisions are made smartly on draft day and via FA.
                                I know money is tight but this draft is very important not only for bates but for shanny too especially with 8 picks on the board.
                                But Bates' system worked in Miami because he had Pro Bowl and even Hall-of-Fame players to work with. As far as Green Bay...he was there one season, and the scheme didn't start working until this season - after Green Bay had some down seasons and were able to draft the players they needed.

                                I understand a coach needs players. But when a coach can't even keep the defense competitive in the majority of the games even with decent talent, how good is he really?

                                And again, we already scrapped the scheme once, meaning we're going to be encountering all these same problems next season.
                                sigpic

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