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Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates should stay...

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  • Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
    You looking for him to coordinate the defense, or date your daughter?

    Come ON, man. Tell us what the answer is. You're SO SURE it's not Bates, you've got to offer up some alternatives or the argument looks ridiculously petty.
    Sorry, moose. Ain't gonna happen...

    However, I don't necessarily believe Bates can't turn it around here per se. I just evaluate the basis of his defensive scheme, look at our defense's strengths and where the money is being spent (which is the secondary), and know the type of coach Mike Shanahan is (win-now, plan-for-this-season-only). This talk of giving him 'one more season' is futile, because it's going to take at least 2-3 seasons minimum to find the right guys and implement the scheme, especially since it has already been scrapped once with the players we have now.

    So, in other words, I don't think the time it will take for his scheme to work is compatable with the way we run our organization. Now, we could have Bates implement a different scheme to fit the players we have, and see how that goes. But at that point, you can probably find someone younger and better able to adapt than Bates, who is in his 60's and only has two years remaining on his contract as it is.

    To me, there's just a lot going against Bates' system ever working here, and if it won't work, then why even bother trying next season, when you can try to find the long-term answer now in the offseason, given that we should have a fairly wide-open defense in which to implement whatever scheme best suits our players?
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    • What does age have to do with coaching ability? Monte Kiffin has done a great job in Tampa Bay for years, he's older. Many top head coaches are older. Many great co-ordinators are older.

      Just as players cannot be manufactured, coaches cannot be manufactured.

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      • Originally posted by rogue719 View Post
        1. We brought this outstanding coach in to rebuild our defense knowing at the time that we didn't have the personnel we needed for his scheme. We tried to find workable substitutes but they didn't work out. That is not Bates fault.

        2. The money he would apply to our salary cap as we hire someone else, pay him the remaining two years on his three year salary. It's stupid to pay two people for doing the same thing when we could use the difference to apply to getting and paying some quality talent.

        3. Major changes to a defense are not something you complete in one season. One of the reasons he was given a three year contract was so we could give him a chance to rebuild the defense and make us a defensive power again. Rome wasn't built in a day. Give him time to actually work to replace the people that need to be replaced and draft new talent and train them. Green Bay's coaches said that you would start seeing the benefits either by the end of this season or during next season, based upon their own experiences rebuilding in the Jim Bates model.

        4. Everywhere Bates has been (and I emphasize *everywhere*) he has not only improved the defense but installed defensive philosophies that contributed to them being powerful on defense even long after he left those teams. Green Bay coaches consider him the "mentor" and keep his scheme. Miami for years was a powerhouse on defense thanks to Bates. He turned Dallas's defensive schemes around.

        How'm I doing?
        good post with some excellent points.......

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        • Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
          What does age have to do with coaching ability? Monte Kiffin has done a great job in Tampa Bay for years, he's older. Many top head coaches are older. Many great co-ordinators are older.

          Just as players cannot be manufactured, coaches cannot be manufactured.
          It's the old saying, powder - 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks'. It's been proven repeatedly that, once coaches get to a certain age and point in their careers, they become less and less effective. There are certainly exceptions, but the norm is that, at a certain age, the message stops being heard and the system harder to implement.
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          • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
            It's the old saying, powder - 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks'. It's been proven repeatedly that, once coaches get to a certain age and point in their careers, they become less and less effective. There are certainly exceptions, but the norm is that, at a certain age, the message stops being heard and the system harder to implement.
            People said that about Marty when he went to SD, Levi in Buffalo, about Reeves when he went to Atlanta, and certainly about Gibbs when he went to Washington (I know you don't think Gibbs is doign a good job in Washington, but I would completely disagree with you).

            But football is football. Despite people trying to tell you that football is 'different' now.. its not. Its really not. So I don't think the need to have a younger person makes a bit of difference, other than them not having much experience.

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            • See, and this is a major disagreement for us, Mojo.

              You think Bates has to turn this into a top-5 unit in the next season in order to keep his job with the Broncos. I think, if we get a few of the players in the right direction and IMPROVE the defense, Shanahan will keep him on staff. Rome wasn't built in a day.

              Considering the injuries, considering the new personnel... it would be folly to can Bates at this time.
              In Manning I trust.

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              • Also, until you make your intentions known about who would replace Bates, about who would be so much better in this job, it's all a bunch of hot air, and your opinion carries no weight.

                Hypothetical example: it's like going to war without a concrete plan for either winning or leaving.
                In Manning I trust.

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                • Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                  People said that about Marty when he went to SD, Levi in Buffalo, about Reeves when he went to Atlanta, and certainly about Gibbs when he went to Washington (I know you don't think Gibbs is doign a good job in Washington, but I would completely disagree with you).

                  But football is football. Despite people trying to tell you that football is 'different' now.. its not. Its really not. So I don't think the need to have a younger person makes a bit of difference, other than them not having much experience.
                  But how did all those coaches wind up ending their tenure with those respective teams (with the notable exception of Gibbs, of course)?

                  And for those guys, there's Bill Parcells, Art Shell, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, and even Larry Coyer and Ray Rhodes for us.
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                  • basically mojo.... the best reason to keep him is the most logical. That is you really don't gain anything by firing a coach after one season. Its not really giving him a chance to do what he does, and thats coach. NO ONE can really accomplish anything after one season.

                    Sure, you could fire him and bring in someone else, and the defense would 'rank' better next season. When you are ranked low, thats not hard to do. But we aren't looking just for that. We are looking for this coach to build our defense as he has done in two other places, and in order to do that you HAVE to give him more than a single season to do it. It just doesn't make sense not to.

                    The most reasonable and most logical reason to keep him just isn't good enough for your line of thinking, and is never going to change your mind. So really, this thread is never going to provide you with the answer or answers you are looking for. Because you are set that he isn't a fit here, and needs to be booted and replaced with someone else.

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                    • Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
                      See, and this is a major disagreement for us, Mojo.

                      You think Bates has to turn this into a top-5 unit in the next season in order to keep his job with the Broncos. I think, if we get a few of the players in the right direction and IMPROVE the defense, Shanahan will keep him on staff. Rome wasn't built in a day.

                      Considering the injuries, considering the new personnel... it would be folly to can Bates at this time.
                      Newsflash - EVERYONE thought Bates would turn this into a top-5 unit immediately, including Shanahan and numerous fans here, and especially considering that we were a top-10 unit last season. It's only after the fact now that all the fans who thought Coyer couldn't coach a defense and backed Bates fully, are trying to say 'well, it's going to take some time'.

                      Furthermore, Denver is likely not going to have the players needed for the scheme to work next season, either. And the scheme was already dumped! Any talk of improvement with the scheme next season is silly, IMO, because there's no indication that these players will be any better equipped to run his scheme here next year.
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                      • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                        But how did all those coaches wind up ending their tenure with those respective teams (with the notable exception of Gibbs, of course)?

                        And for those guys, there's Bill Parcells, Art Shell, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, and even Larry Coyer and Ray Rhodes for us.
                        I don't know what your list of coaches have to do with anything, really. Bill Parcells was too old to coach and was outdated??????? Don Shula was outdated?? What does Larry Coyer and Rhodes have to do with anything??

                        Tom Landry was in Dallas for 26 years. Noll was in Pittsburgh for 22 years. Thats a big reason as to why they were let go. I don't think this list of coaches proves your point in the least.

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                        • Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                          basically mojo.... the best reason to keep him is the most logical. That is you really don't gain anything by firing a coach after one season. Its not really giving him a chance to do what he does, and thats coach. NO ONE can really accomplish anything after one season.

                          Sure, you could fire him and bring in someone else, and the defense would 'rank' better next season. When you are ranked low, thats not hard to do. But we aren't looking just for that. We are looking for this coach to build our defense as he has done in two other places, and in order to do that you HAVE to give him more than a single season to do it. It just doesn't make sense not to.

                          The most reasonable and most logical reason to keep him just isn't good enough for your line of thinking, and is never going to change your mind. So really, this thread is never going to provide you with the answer or answers you are looking for. Because you are set that he isn't a fit here, and needs to be booted and replaced with someone else.
                          But what indications do you have that this defense will be any better next season, given the fact that the scheme has already been dumped mid-season and the player turnover we'll likely endure this offseason? And what makes you believe Shanahan will show more patience next season if, say, the Broncos lose at home 41-3, than he showed this season when he trashed the scheme during the bye week?
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                          • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                            But how did all those coaches wind up ending their tenure with those respective teams (with the notable exception of Gibbs, of course)?

                            And for those guys, there's Bill Parcells, Art Shell, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, and even Larry Coyer and Ray Rhodes for us.
                            Bill Belichick, Dan Reeves, Dennis Green, Wade Phillips, Marv Levy, the list goes on and on of successful coaches not in their 30’s or 40’s.

                            So yeah, you have success and failure at the coaching level in all age groups, pretty much proving that age isn’t really a factor when looking at coaching.

                            Cute sayings don’t prove anything.

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                            • Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
                              Also, until you make your intentions known about who would replace Bates, about who would be so much better in this job, it's all a bunch of hot air, and your opinion carries no weight.

                              Hypothetical example: it's like going to war without a concrete plan for either winning or leaving.
                              Well...if you really believe that, then why continue to respond?

                              I don't get into discussions of who could replace who/who's better for the job, etc. anymore. I'm not here to please you or make you happy with my responses.

                              I will say, however, that the most ridiculous thought process in fandom is the idea that only one specific coach can coach a respective team. I think there are probably a dozen guys who can coach this defense as good or better than Bates - guys none of us have probably heard of before. The issue is, that right now this season, Bates, IN MY OPINION, failed us. And the optimism that it will somehow be better next season is false hope.
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                              • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                                Newsflash - EVERYONE thought Bates would turn this into a top-5 unit immediately, including Shanahan and numerous fans here, and especially considering that we were a top-10 unit last season. It's only after the fact now that all the fans who thought Coyer couldn't coach a defense and backed Bates fully, are trying to say 'well, it's going to take some time'.
                                Come on mojo... QUIT speaking as though you know what Shanahan was thinking, wanting, or what he was saying behind the scenes. Stop it. You don't have a CLUE as to what he was expecting from the change.

                                Plus, again... do you really think the fans ever have 'reasonable' expectations???? Seriously? Everytime a player is drafted he's the next elite, and every 1st round pick SHOULD be a HoF player or its a bust. I've seen the 'fans' here say that EVERY WR drafted should do better than Rod Smith.... since he wasn't drafted! So don't use the 'fans here' had expectations.

                                Furthermore, Denver is likely not going to have the players needed for the scheme to work next season, either. And the scheme was already dumped! Any talk of improvement with the scheme next season is silly, IMO, because there's no indication that these players will be any better equipped to run his scheme here next year.
                                Again... you don't really know how much of the scheme was 'dumped' or not dumped. You don't know what was being done and not being done. You don't know the approach they are going to go with this offseason, and what they arent. That means both personnel and scheme. I don't see how you think there won't be improvement.... and we have seen year after year after year....t eams that fall to the bottom in a catagory RISE the year after. HELL.. LOOK at Tennessee! Their defense was NOT good last year. Your judgments on next year's performance just doen't really make sense.... other than just being negative and down based on THIS year.

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