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Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates shouldn't stay...

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  • Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates shouldn't stay...

    Couldn't help myself.

    Feel free to post, or not just thought it would be interesting to see.
    Careful what you wish for, Darth , cause here comes the worst DC in the league...... -stnzd
    What's that? Need proof? http://dack.com/archive/bob-slowik-must-be-fired.html


    Goodbye social life...




    My Mojo!

  • #2
    I think these have already been discussed in the other thread.

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    • #3
      I know, just waiting for someone to give a compelling reason why he shouldn't stay aside from the underperforming defense.
      Careful what you wish for, Darth , cause here comes the worst DC in the league...... -stnzd
      What's that? Need proof? http://dack.com/archive/bob-slowik-must-be-fired.html


      Goodbye social life...




      My Mojo!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by delirium_05 View Post
        I know, just waiting for someone to give a compelling reason why he shouldn't stay aside from the underperforming defense.
        Because he's a scheme coach who's ability to be successful hinges on specific types of players in specific positions that are hard to obtain and keep. His supporters keep saying 'just give him another year' without providing any evidence or suggestions on how exactly this defense can be better next season given what's going to be available to this team, coupled with the needs it will have in other critical positions.

        On top of all that, we're going to have to re-teach and re-implement his scheme all over again due to us dumping it five weeks into the season, which is likely to have the same results going into next year as it did this season.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
          Because he's a scheme coach who's ability to be successful hinges on specific types of players in specific positions that are hard to obtain and keep. His supporters keep saying 'just give him another year' without providing any evidence or suggestions on how exactly this defense can be better next season given what's going to be available to this team, coupled with the needs it will have in other critical positions.

          On top of all that, we're going to have to re-teach and re-implement his scheme all over again due to us dumping it five weeks into the season, which is likely to have the same results going into next year as it did this season.

          Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

          Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

          It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

          /tipsy rant off

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          • #6
            Originally posted by PaperBagBronco View Post
            Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

            Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

            It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

            /tipsy rant off
            You must be tipsy. Because of that, you're forgiven for wanting the Broncos to have made moves after SEVEN DAYS OF OFF SEASON.

            Guess we should have petitioned the league to hold the draft earlier.

            Or maybe we should have had some say in the Titans not making the playoffs so we could go after Haynesworth.

            OR, this must be it, we should have just started getting the heads rolling by firing a DC who has been successful with his system in other places, after only one year - and, truthfully - only five games.



            Brilliant!
            In Manning I trust.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PaperBagBronco View Post
              Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

              Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

              It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

              /tipsy rant off
              Uh........the season isn't over yet, so we can't really do a whole lot?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
                OR, this must be it, we should have just started getting the heads rolling by firing a DC who has been successful with his system in other places, after only one year - and, truthfully - only five games.
                But that's just it. I don't fault Bates necessarily for getting his system dumped five weeks into the season. Mike Shanahan is a 'win now' coach (which is why I laugh when some people around here claim we're rebuilding and Shanahan secretly knows it), and although you respect that tremendously, it may wind up hurting us next season.

                But what's done is done. The system was dumped, and now we have to start virtually from scratch with trying to make it work again next season, not likely having the players Bates needs to make it work. Bates was successful previously because the players were in place to make his scheme work, and the teams were patient enough to allow him to implement his system over a period of time. He's not going to get the same accomodations here. Hiring Bates was a mistake. I'm sure he's a fine coach, but we hired him based on his reputation (i.e. Ray Rhodes), and we just don't have the players to make his scheme work.
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                  I'm sure he's a fine coach, but we hired him based on his reputation (i.e. Ray Rhodes), and we just don't have the players to make his scheme work.
                  It's been mentioned numerous times before... right now, the crew we have couldn't be effective with ANY scheme.

                  3-4 ... no way
                  cover 2 ... not a chance
                  46 .... give it a rest

                  ANY coach is going to look really stupid when your players can't move a blocking sled. Until we get some Pro-caliber players, I don't care WHO the coach is or what scheme he runs.
                  Look at the track record with our DC's.

                  Rhodes - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
                  Coyer - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
                  Bates - no pro-bowlers on the front line. (Elvis was an honorable mention?)

                  Is there any pattern you could pick out of this? The fix we need is personnel, not coaches and coordinators.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
                    It's been mentioned numerous times before... right now, the crew we have couldn't be effective with ANY scheme.

                    3-4 ... no way
                    cover 2 ... not a chance
                    46 .... give it a rest

                    ANY coach is going to look really stupid when your players can't move a blocking sled. Until we get some Pro-caliber players, I don't care WHO the coach is or what scheme he runs.
                    Look at the track record with our DC's.

                    Rhodes - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
                    Coyer - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
                    Bates - no pro-bowlers on the front line. (Elvis was an honorable mention?)

                    Is there any pattern you could pick out of this? The fix we need is personnel, not coaches and coordinators.
                    And I agree - we need to fix the defensive line once and for all. But even without Pro Bowl defensive linemen, neither Rhodes or Coyer allowed the defense to fall as badly as Bates did this season and made the mistakes with player personnel that Bates made. They wanted to hot-shoot his scheme with the players, thus trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and it not only looked bad from the get-go, it actually got worse, until Week 5 when we were destroyed by San Diego.

                    I don't necessarily mind giving Bates more time to work with the defense and get the players he needs. But we'll have to put his scheme on the back-burner until that can happen, and would he be willing to do that again, after allegedly being forced to dump his scheme 'kicking and screaming' (to quote Sandy Clough) five weeks into the season? And what players are available to this team now to make his defense work? Keep in mind there were already several players in place at both Miami and Green Bay. It's clear that we didn't have ANYONE in place to run his scheme this season.
                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      Now you're quoting Sandy Clough? There's no hope for you. Seriously.
                      In Manning I trust.

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                      • #12
                        Last I remember Rhodes defense was only good at stopping the run and horrible vs the pass and was bend but don't break. Which was the same kind of system that Larry Coyer implied. Bates style of defense is an attacking defense with the front 4. You can't stop the run when your DTs are being pushed around like babies in strollers. Get the man some space eatters and watch the DEs wreck havoc and the rest of the defense flourish.
                        sigpic
                        PSN & XBL: Vicious2500
                        You Shed Tears of Scarlet

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                          Keep in mind there were already several players in place at both Miami and Green Bay. It's clear that we didn't have ANYONE in place to run his scheme this season.
                          Well, I don't think Bates would mind keeping Champ, DJ, Moss, Thomas, Abdullah, Bly, Elvis, Ekuban (??), Crowder... We need to take care of DT and OLB, IMO. A safety is in our future as well.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
                            Well, I don't think Bates would mind keeping Champ, DJ, Moss, Thomas, Abdullah, Bly, Elvis, Ekuban (??), Crowder... We need to take care of DT and OLB, IMO. A safety is in our future as well.
                            But again, in all these years under Shanahan, the Broncos have been unable to find, develop, and keep talented defensive linemen - even in seasons in which it was our biggest weakness. So given that, what makes people so convinced that we can suddenly turn it around in one year, after a season in which it's apparent the Broncos have several glaring holes that need to be addressed?
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              I think that Moss, Crowder, and Thomas are going to be ok, in fact, pretty good. Dumervil is already knocking on the Pro-Bowl door... That's 4 decent picks in 2 years. I think there is a chance we finish the job this next year. Kudos to Shanny for FINALLY going for some up-front help in the draft. He's said himself that he is looking for DT help. I'm definitely with you, he ignored the most important part of the D for FAR too long.

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