Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Give me compelling reasons/arguments why Jim Bates shouldn't stay...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hadez
    replied
    Because he is not smart enough to realize he did not have the proper players for his scheme. A good coach would have realized this from film tape and then be prepared to analyze the finer details in camp.

    A good coach would have been prepared for his scheme to not work since he knew he did not have the proven talent.

    A good coach would have realized he was relying on too many "what ifs" and had a backup plan or two.

    The year before we had a defense that going for the record in points allowed until we met up against the Colts. That year and the year before Champ was imo the best defensive player in the league but since he is a CB he does not get the praise DL and hybrid LBs get. Besides the pass rush our defense was pretty good before Bates. Now it looks completely broken.

    There are a couple players who do not believe in the system and not one player is standing behind it atm. A good coach will get his players to buy into the system.

    It was only one season but imo he is the worst defensive coord I have seen in Denver yet. The only thing that comes to mind as close is the Bend-But-Do-Not-Break defense that Wade Phillips put into place when he was head coach.

    Maybe we need to take a step back before we can take a giant leap forward. Maybe now with a year of experience and another offseason to get needed players things will turn around. I am not in the rooms hearing the thoughts behind what is going on or in the players/coaches minds so I really do not know.

    This is not flag football, this is not HS football; this is the NFL! In case you forgot it stands for Not For Long if you can not get the job done!

    Leave a comment:


  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    I think that Moss, Crowder, and Thomas are going to be ok, in fact, pretty good. Dumervil is already knocking on the Pro-Bowl door... That's 4 decent picks in 2 years. I think there is a chance we finish the job this next year. Kudos to Shanny for FINALLY going for some up-front help in the draft. He's said himself that he is looking for DT help. I'm definitely with you, he ignored the most important part of the D for FAR too long.

    Leave a comment:


  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
    Well, I don't think Bates would mind keeping Champ, DJ, Moss, Thomas, Abdullah, Bly, Elvis, Ekuban (??), Crowder... We need to take care of DT and OLB, IMO. A safety is in our future as well.
    But again, in all these years under Shanahan, the Broncos have been unable to find, develop, and keep talented defensive linemen - even in seasons in which it was our biggest weakness. So given that, what makes people so convinced that we can suddenly turn it around in one year, after a season in which it's apparent the Broncos have several glaring holes that need to be addressed?

    Leave a comment:


  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Keep in mind there were already several players in place at both Miami and Green Bay. It's clear that we didn't have ANYONE in place to run his scheme this season.
    Well, I don't think Bates would mind keeping Champ, DJ, Moss, Thomas, Abdullah, Bly, Elvis, Ekuban (??), Crowder... We need to take care of DT and OLB, IMO. A safety is in our future as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • vicious2500
    replied
    Last I remember Rhodes defense was only good at stopping the run and horrible vs the pass and was bend but don't break. Which was the same kind of system that Larry Coyer implied. Bates style of defense is an attacking defense with the front 4. You can't stop the run when your DTs are being pushed around like babies in strollers. Get the man some space eatters and watch the DEs wreck havoc and the rest of the defense flourish.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheRealMoose
    replied
    Now you're quoting Sandy Clough? There's no hope for you. Seriously.

    Leave a comment:


  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by gobroncsnv View Post
    It's been mentioned numerous times before... right now, the crew we have couldn't be effective with ANY scheme.

    3-4 ... no way
    cover 2 ... not a chance
    46 .... give it a rest

    ANY coach is going to look really stupid when your players can't move a blocking sled. Until we get some Pro-caliber players, I don't care WHO the coach is or what scheme he runs.
    Look at the track record with our DC's.

    Rhodes - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
    Coyer - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
    Bates - no pro-bowlers on the front line. (Elvis was an honorable mention?)

    Is there any pattern you could pick out of this? The fix we need is personnel, not coaches and coordinators.
    And I agree - we need to fix the defensive line once and for all. But even without Pro Bowl defensive linemen, neither Rhodes or Coyer allowed the defense to fall as badly as Bates did this season and made the mistakes with player personnel that Bates made. They wanted to hot-shoot his scheme with the players, thus trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and it not only looked bad from the get-go, it actually got worse, until Week 5 when we were destroyed by San Diego.

    I don't necessarily mind giving Bates more time to work with the defense and get the players he needs. But we'll have to put his scheme on the back-burner until that can happen, and would he be willing to do that again, after allegedly being forced to dump his scheme 'kicking and screaming' (to quote Sandy Clough) five weeks into the season? And what players are available to this team now to make his defense work? Keep in mind there were already several players in place at both Miami and Green Bay. It's clear that we didn't have ANYONE in place to run his scheme this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    I'm sure he's a fine coach, but we hired him based on his reputation (i.e. Ray Rhodes), and we just don't have the players to make his scheme work.
    It's been mentioned numerous times before... right now, the crew we have couldn't be effective with ANY scheme.

    3-4 ... no way
    cover 2 ... not a chance
    46 .... give it a rest

    ANY coach is going to look really stupid when your players can't move a blocking sled. Until we get some Pro-caliber players, I don't care WHO the coach is or what scheme he runs.
    Look at the track record with our DC's.

    Rhodes - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
    Coyer - no pro-bowlers on the front line.
    Bates - no pro-bowlers on the front line. (Elvis was an honorable mention?)

    Is there any pattern you could pick out of this? The fix we need is personnel, not coaches and coordinators.

    Leave a comment:


  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
    OR, this must be it, we should have just started getting the heads rolling by firing a DC who has been successful with his system in other places, after only one year - and, truthfully - only five games.
    But that's just it. I don't fault Bates necessarily for getting his system dumped five weeks into the season. Mike Shanahan is a 'win now' coach (which is why I laugh when some people around here claim we're rebuilding and Shanahan secretly knows it), and although you respect that tremendously, it may wind up hurting us next season.

    But what's done is done. The system was dumped, and now we have to start virtually from scratch with trying to make it work again next season, not likely having the players Bates needs to make it work. Bates was successful previously because the players were in place to make his scheme work, and the teams were patient enough to allow him to implement his system over a period of time. He's not going to get the same accomodations here. Hiring Bates was a mistake. I'm sure he's a fine coach, but we hired him based on his reputation (i.e. Ray Rhodes), and we just don't have the players to make his scheme work.

    Leave a comment:


  • str8jacket
    replied
    Originally posted by PaperBagBronco View Post
    Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

    Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

    It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

    /tipsy rant off
    Uh........the season isn't over yet, so we can't really do a whole lot?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheRealMoose
    replied
    Originally posted by PaperBagBronco View Post
    Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

    Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

    It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

    /tipsy rant off
    You must be tipsy. Because of that, you're forgiven for wanting the Broncos to have made moves after SEVEN DAYS OF OFF SEASON.

    Guess we should have petitioned the league to hold the draft earlier.

    Or maybe we should have had some say in the Titans not making the playoffs so we could go after Haynesworth.

    OR, this must be it, we should have just started getting the heads rolling by firing a DC who has been successful with his system in other places, after only one year - and, truthfully - only five games.



    Brilliant!

    Leave a comment:


  • PaperBagBronco
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Because he's a scheme coach who's ability to be successful hinges on specific types of players in specific positions that are hard to obtain and keep. His supporters keep saying 'just give him another year' without providing any evidence or suggestions on how exactly this defense can be better next season given what's going to be available to this team, coupled with the needs it will have in other critical positions.

    On top of all that, we're going to have to re-teach and re-implement his scheme all over again due to us dumping it five weeks into the season, which is likely to have the same results going into next year as it did this season.

    Exactly and when you factor into the exquation that when his scheme is not working he is unable to come up with anything else that will work as good or even close. The more I hear about his scheme the more I see that QB's like Brady or Manning will pick it apart.

    Here is another one, how about this is perhaps the worst defense that the Broncos have ever fielded...

    It boggles my mind how we still have done nothing in this offseason.. Perhaps one of the worst seasons in Recent memory and we have done absolutly NOTHING so far.

    /tipsy rant off

    Leave a comment:


  • mojo0730
    replied
    Originally posted by delirium_05 View Post
    I know, just waiting for someone to give a compelling reason why he shouldn't stay aside from the underperforming defense.
    Because he's a scheme coach who's ability to be successful hinges on specific types of players in specific positions that are hard to obtain and keep. His supporters keep saying 'just give him another year' without providing any evidence or suggestions on how exactly this defense can be better next season given what's going to be available to this team, coupled with the needs it will have in other critical positions.

    On top of all that, we're going to have to re-teach and re-implement his scheme all over again due to us dumping it five weeks into the season, which is likely to have the same results going into next year as it did this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • delirium_05
    replied
    I know, just waiting for someone to give a compelling reason why he shouldn't stay aside from the underperforming defense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravage!!!
    replied
    I think these have already been discussed in the other thread.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X