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Who/What is responsible for our defensive collapse in '07?

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  • #16
    Sucky players are to blame.


    RIP D-Will and Nash

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
      If you want to get technical about it, then yes - he resigned. I won't get into a needless argument because you are clearly defensive with your responses to my posts.

      However, I think asking an assistant head coach like Bates to become a position's coach, working under his former protege, is in effect, terminating him, because no human being with an ounce of pride would take that kind of demotion with the same team. If you disagree, that's fine. But I doubt many would see a demotion-or-leave scenario as anything but a termination.
      I'm not at all defensive.

      He wasnt fired, that's all I'm saying.

      Usually a demotion is just that......a demotion. It's not saying "Youre fired"

      He still would have been employed by the Broncos......"Technically"
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Chidoze View Post
        I'm not at all defensive.

        He wasnt fired, that's all I'm saying.

        Usually a demotion is just that......a demotion. It's not saying "Youre fired"

        He still would have been employed by the Broncos......"Technically"
        Indeed...

        HOWEVER, the Broncos homepage article implies that the Broncos wanted him back in the same capacity, and he chose not to do that. I suppose even he with his statements give the same implication. But regardless, there's more to the story than the Broncos wanting Bates back and him declining. If the Broncos wanted him back as the Assistant Head Coach, I have no doubt he'd have stayed on.
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        • #19
          I must say that I'm surprised by the poll results thus far.

          It's surprising that most fans appear to be blaiming our problems on defense last season on other factors than coaching or personnel decisions.

          It's not what I expected - but that's the fun of doing these kinds of polls, right?
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          • #20
            A new scheme, players changing position, and a host of injuries doomed this defense. We drafted talent for the defensive line, and they started to get better. But, you cant expect rookie defensive linemen to come in and be superstars. Its a tough transition.
            sigpic

            I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
            SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

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            • #21
              As much as a pro-ponet i was for Bates, it leaves me with a mix feeling.

              First off Bates had up to the time we had to get the defense in shape. Practice, training, review of tapes, ect.

              From there I think he failed or did not understand why Coyer was fired in 2006. Either he did not want to learn from the past or total wrote off last year. The fact is we have players that are a 4-3 defense, most of our drafts and FA were built to take advantage of the scheme.

              Then his scheme calls for a 3-4 and new plays as well FA's that were brought in then later cut. A Draft that was tailored made to get players for his Defense mind you, and still he couldn't put the pieces together. Shanahan wanted to to see results... Sure somewhere down the line Shanahan's impatience grew but the problem was that none of the players could transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4.

              The fault of that was on Shanahan, the majority of the fault was on Bates for not trying to blend the two into one, use the best of both schemes and work the lines in between. That inability to do so led to Bates's scheme being scrapped.

              Lastly the Players could not grasp it very well, injuries took out key players and the huge turnover of players via Bates cutting people hurt the team defensively the more people are willing to admit. Sure most of the D-line are scrubs and the Rookies that took over didnt fare better but the truth is the D-line rookies didnt fare well due to the loss of the buffers that the scrubs offered.

              Sure there are bright spots in the D, but in reality this Defense just went backwards again for the next year it will go backwards unless we can find a defnitive answer to restore some sense of balance within the Defense.


              Bates laid a goose egg, was offered to stay (tho my prediction of him being asked to come back at reduced pay and duties did come to pass) He refused meaning that he could not come in and work his magic like most of us felt he could change things around.

              I think Shanahan's next move will to find a 4-3 Defensive Coach because the 3-4 experiment was a bust.
              McDaniles Career as a failure of a Head Coach is being fulfilled. Termination of McFailure has happen.

              Rejoice Bronco Fans we have taken our team back, but at a heavy cost.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BroncoKazuki View Post
                As much as a pro-ponet i was for Bates, it leaves me with a mix feeling.

                First off Bates had up to the time we had to get the defense in shape. Practice, training, review of tapes, ect.

                From there I think he failed or did not understand why Coyer was fired in 2006. Either he did not want to learn from the past or total wrote off last year. The fact is we have players that are a 4-3 defense, most of our drafts and FA were built to take advantage of the scheme.

                Then his scheme calls for a 3-4 and new plays as well FA's that were brought in then later cut. A Draft that was tailored made to get players for his Defense mind you, and still he couldn't put the pieces together. Shanahan wanted to to see results... Sure somewhere down the line Shanahan's impatience grew but the problem was that none of the players could transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4.

                The fault of that was on Shanahan, the majority of the fault was on Bates for not trying to blend the two into one, use the best of both schemes and work the lines in between. That inability to do so led to Bates's scheme being scrapped.

                Lastly the Players could not grasp it very well, injuries took out key players and the huge turnover of players via Bates cutting people hurt the team defensively the more people are willing to admit. Sure most of the D-line are scrubs and the Rookies that took over didnt fare better but the truth is the D-line rookies didnt fare well due to the loss of the buffers that the scrubs offered.

                Sure there are bright spots in the D, but in reality this Defense just went backwards again for the next year it will go backwards unless we can find a defnitive answer to restore some sense of balance within the Defense.


                Bates laid a goose egg, was offered to stay (tho my prediction of him being asked to come back at reduced pay and duties did come to pass) He refused meaning that he could not come in and work his magic like most of us felt he could change things around.

                I think Shanahan's next move will to find a 4-3 Defensive Coach because the 3-4 experiment was a bust.
                I don't know what defense you were watching this season...but the Broncos were not running a 3-4 defense...
                Last edited by mojo0730; 01-08-2008, 09:22 PM.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                  I don't know what defense you were watching this season...but the Broncos were not running a 3-4 defense...
                  i did say... his system was scrapped.

                  At the end we reverted to a 4-3 and still didnt do well.

                  My reasoning is one of two things. Shanahan has had it, and is now throwing the Broncos under the bus.

                  Or

                  Shanahan will try to find a Defensive DC that deploys a 4-3 defense.

                  I saw the defense in week 3 we scrapped his defense to go back to a 4-3 defense. how can you expect a right around when everything that lead up to the start of the season was the 3-4 defense practice. I'll go as far as saying that not even half of Bates playbook was deployed. As well as poor coaching on Bates part on not getting his players remotely prepared for the full season.
                  McDaniles Career as a failure of a Head Coach is being fulfilled. Termination of McFailure has happen.

                  Rejoice Bronco Fans we have taken our team back, but at a heavy cost.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BroncoKazuki View Post
                    i did say... his system was scrapped.

                    At the end we reverted to a 4-3 and still didnt do well.

                    My reasoning is one of two things. Shanahan has had it, and is now throwing the Broncos under the bus.

                    Or

                    Shanahan will try to find a Defensive DC that deploys a 4-3 defense.

                    I saw the defense in week 3 we scrapped his defense to go back to a 4-3 defense. how can you expect a right around when everything that lead up to the start of the season was the 3-4 defense practice. I'll go as far as saying that not even half of Bates playbook was deployed.
                    We were never running a 3-4 defense. Under Bates, we were attempting to run a two-gap, 4-3 defense.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by draco193 View Post
                      A new scheme, players changing position, and a host of injuries doomed this defense. We drafted talent for the defensive line, and they started to get better. But, you cant expect rookie defensive linemen to come in and be superstars. Its a tough transition.
                      I agree, you can't keep rookies from making rookie mistakes, and when you start 3 different rookies on the D-line, what do you expect?

                      That said, I still blame Bates. I think, and Bates himself said, that he didn't teach his system well enough. There were so many issues that came out of the poorly coached squad as a result of this. 12 men on the field, poor tackling, players constantly out of position, etc, etc. I didn't really expect a miracle with Bates coming in and with so many young players, but I also expected it to be better than last year, and it wasn't even close to being nearly as good as last year.

                      I say "as good as last year" very loosely.

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                      • #26
                        I like MIke but I had to say it has been his desicion making and his philosophy....IN this era of the nfl teams have more high powered offenses and him being a offensive minded coach has not built our defensive up to match the abilities of the other offensives we face these days...He needs to relinquish the defensive decisions to someone who has a complete understanding of what a defense needs to be in this era..That way mike can fully concentrate on builing this stellar offense he envisions with cutler...
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                        GO BRONCOS IN 2008

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                        • #27
                          Shanahan! Or whoever does the drafting.

                          What it comes down to is ignoring the D-line in the '04-'06 draft. That is why our D is so bad. Actually, I should include '03 in there also. Sure we took a 4 that draft (Eason, McNeal, Hunt, Mitchell), but they were all 2nd day picks.



                          If I've said it once on this board, I've said it a hundred times:

                          YOU NEED TO DRAFT D-LINE EARLY AND OFTEN!

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                          • #28
                            I said other because I do not think you can point at one specific thing.

                            I think it is, in no particular order, the following:

                            1. The defensive players executing and playing defense.
                            2. Sundquist - for not getting Bates adeqaute DL free agents.
                            3. Jim Bates for not realizing soon enough that the defense was not working.
                            4. Mike Shannahan, becuase is in charge of everything.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                              I must say that I'm surprised by the poll results thus far.

                              It's surprising that most fans appear to be blaiming our problems on defense last season on other factors than coaching or personnel decisions.

                              It's not what I expected - but that's the fun of doing these kinds of polls, right?
                              There's just not even any rational argument that personnel decisions doomed this Broncos defense to being very bad. Only having a veteran offense with an Elway or Peyton Manning and plenty of offensive talent around them could have saved this season.

                              In retrospect it was probably inevitable that Bates would be fired, after Bob Slowik was basically promoted to DC after only a few games and Bates' defensive scheme was scrapped.

                              But, no matter how many times it's pointed out, some fans refuse to let the truth soak into their brains.

                              Bates didn't "bring in" anybody! He may have talked to Shanahan about players but Shanahan and Ted Sundquist handle ALL repeat ALL player personnel decisions. The coaches may have input, but they aren't delegated any responsibility in that area.

                              I've posted elsewhere how the failure to draft useful DTs between 2001 and 2007 doomed the team this year. This year was a brutal reminder that you can't just rely on FAs to solve all your problems. You need to use high #1 or #2 draft picks on DTs in order to get enough good ones to prevent teams from running straight over your defense.

                              Unless the Broncos add at least 2 starting quality DTs via the draft and FA this off-season.

                              Shanahan sacking Bates is really scapegoating for HIS OWN drafting failures between 2001 and 2006 or so. He had horrible drafts, so that the players who should be the core of the team simply aren't here and he's having to rebuild with FA underachievers like Amon Gordon, Warren, Simeon Rice, Sam Adams, Atwon Burton, etc. All busts in their time in Denver -- all cut during the season.

                              A complete list of failures doomed the defense.

                              Bates won't be out of a job long.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                New scheme, new players, injuries, confusion on the defense... I think part of the problem was with the coaching (i.e 12 men on the field penalties, players not knowing their assignments...) while some of the blame should go to the players. There were a ton of missed tackles throughout the season and players were just not focused on the game.

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