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the Broncos got fleeced

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  • rev_rock
    replied
    Well, I've said it before, and I'll keep on saying it. Coaches and coordinators took an awesome scrambling QB, who ALWAYS had played better outside the pocket, and tried to turn him into a pocket QB. Wasn't Jake's ability to make things happen outside the pocket the main reason we got him in the first place??? How dare we place blame on Jake for trying to stay in the pocket (like he was told to do!) behind an offensive line as porous as a sieve? I recall that after Cutler replaced him, Jay was also sacked and had to run for his life!

    That said, I do believe that, ultimately, Cutler will be a much better QB than Jake ever was. I believe that Cutler COULD be our new Elway. The guy IS awesome, and can only get better with time and experience.

    I just don't think it's fair, or honest, to say that Jake sucked. To say he sucked would place him with the likes of Ryan Leaf, Jim Everett, Jim Druckenmiller, Akili Smith, Todd Marinovich...... Need I continue? Anyone who would make that comparison is a fool!!

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  • shooter_j
    replied
    Originally posted by Archimedes Owl View Post
    Plummer wasn't a bad QB for us.

    I mean, Cutler is already one of the better QBs in the league for us.

    I have to temper myself. To be fair, the fact that Cutler is really terrific isn't a reason to criticize Plummer. He was a good acquisition and I'm glad to have had him when we did. He was the best QB that we could have gotten and I'm glad we did when we did.

    With our offensive mastermind and a good offense and above average defense, we were a good playoff team who did have a shot at the Superbowl if things went well.

    Plummer played well in his role and even surpassed anything expected at times.

    I was always a fan of Plummers and hold no ill regard for him.

    But Cutler is already better than him.

    And Cutler knows what it takes and is willing to do what it takes to compete with the best out there.
    This sums up EXACTLY what I was going to say!

    I was a huge fan of Plummer's; I enjoyed watching him play, and defended him to all the Bronco bashers. He was exciting to watch, great on the play action, and knew how to win games.

    However, the fact of the matter is that Cutler is NOW a better QB than Plummer ever was, and it honestly pains me to say that! I think Plummer was very good; I think Cutler is great.

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  • broncolee
    replied
    Jay is top 10 if you go by passing yards last year. But, the QB rating is probably a better measure. If you go by completion percentage, Jay is still top 15.

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  • draco193
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    There isnt a coach in this league that wold take Cutler ahead of Brady or Manning. I am not talking about anything but who is best as of last year... Clearly Jay isn't a top 10 maybe evennot a top 15 QB. I am not saying he wont be one, I am saying he isnt one now.
    He said Brady and Manning arent options.

    And in some article with a redraft of all current players (fantasy draft style), Jay was taken 10 overall.

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  • broncolee
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    There isnt a coach in this league that wold take Cutler ahead of Brady or Manning. I am not talking about anything but who is best as of last year... Clearly Jay isn't a top 10 maybe evennot a top 15 QB. I am not saying he wont be one, I am saying he isnt one now.
    Actually, Jay is a top 15 quarterback.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2007

    Leave a comment:


  • japfaff
    replied
    Originally posted by elevation INC View Post
    your ill advised then because if you ask any of the top coaches and scouts who they want on there team at qb and manning and bardy arent options i doubt any of them would take anderson, gerrard, romo, rivers, hassleback, eli, mcnabb or bulger over cutler plain and simple, palmer maybe, but there is a reason scouts hype jay so much. and its because of his skills he has already displayed. you also must realize that the qb's you named except for palmer were all on playoff teams, so they had very good supporting cast where as jay does not.


    you are famous for playing devils advocate and thats fine, but you are a little off base about jay
    There isnt a coach in this league that wold take Cutler ahead of Brady or Manning. I am not talking about anything but who is best as of last year... Clearly Jay isn't a top 10 maybe evennot a top 15 QB. I am not saying he wont be one, I am saying he isnt one now.

    Leave a comment:


  • japfaff
    replied
    A lot of you are missing what I am trying to say. I am not here to knock Jay. I think he has done very well, not great but I am happy so far. What I am saying is that Jake doesn't deserve the treatment that he recieves from some of you. I am just pointing out that Jay hasn't been as good as Jake was for us. I agree Jake was maxed out in his ability, where Jay could become a top tier QB. Stats and wins and losses aside Jake doesn't deserve to be treated the way some of you choose to treat him

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  • hardcorebronco
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    [/B]

    I gotta disagree with this one at this point....Brady, Manning, Palmer, Anderson, Girrard, Rivers, Romo, and Hassleback are all better YOu could also make a solid arguement that Eli, Mcnabb, Bulger are better. Sorry man you just cant say that Jay is one of the best. I would agree if you say that he will be, but he has a ways to go
    Not sure who Girrard is, but I don't think he has as high of a ceiling as Cutler... in fact, the same is true for Rivers, ****, and Bulger.

    Also, Cutler was number 9 last season overall in the main stat categories. He had a significantly lower surrounding cast than those other nine, and he was battling fatigue from Diabetes.

    But with a better (but still not great) surrounding cast this year, and a treatment to manage his diabetes, I think you will see a significant increase in Cutler's performance this year. Even if Plummer was ten times better, I would take Cutler. Plummer had three seasons max left in him... Cutler has at least 10. Cutler is also much more proficient as a pocket passer... Playmore was one dimensional and inconsistent.

    Leave a comment:


  • tante_vasquez
    replied
    trying to get this back on topic

    Can someone help me understand this?

    How does a team that didn't pay the bonus get it back? What kind of loophole is that? I thought that once a player is traded, his bonus is accelerated to the team that is trading him.

    Leave a comment:


  • KWHIT97
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    Ok fair enough but in 06 Cutler was 2-3 with the same team Jake Went 7-4 with. Plus Jake played agianst better teams.

    07...Cutler took basically the same team to a setllar record of 7-9.

    Jake passed for 4000 yards in a season.... Cutler hasn't

    Jake's had 27 TD's in a season....Cutler 20

    Plummer's career rating is 88.1.....Cutler 87.2 (that was just last year...not sure about rookie year)

    So yeah I guess you are right Jake sucks.....But what does that say about Cutler? How is he better?

    This is Jakes 3rd year stats in this offense... 14-4 record. AFC Championship apperence, 3366 yards, 18 TD's, 7 INT, 90.2 Rating
    So if he sucks...Jay should easly surpass all these stats. Keep in mind these stats were with a team with 2000+ yards rushing and 20 rushing TD's

    Face the fact....Jake was a better QB through 2 years in the offense
    Jay was a friggin rookie.

    And to say that Jay took the same team to a 7-9 record the following year is anal, the 07' team was missing pro-bowl MLB Al Wilson, had no true RB, had a tore up O-Line, and a defense that couldn't keep teams off the field to save their lives, so NO, it wasn't the same team!

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  • rogue719
    replied
    Originally posted by antipas View Post
    You know what, there were times when Plummer was on the money! But for the most part, he was a gambler and would try to force the ball ending in an interception! Thus the calling for his head!
    Gee, that sounds surprisingly like comments made about Cutler last year, trying to force the ball to the primary deep receiver instead of dumping it off to the open man.

    You know what? The Jake Wars are boring. You can make all the excuses you want about Jake but he was 40-18 as a Broncos starting QB. When he was benched he was still a WINNING Broncos QB (7-4) in his final season and his replacement finished out the year 2-3 and missed the playoffs. Jake had already played nearly all of the tough teams that season as well, including a shootout with Indy that we nearly won and beating the Ravens and the Patriots.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again - the problem with Jake his last season was less Jake and more the coaching staff, especially the man calling the plays, Heimerdinger. Working with essentially the same offense one year later, Cutler was also averaging 17 points a game, even before he started losing weight and was losing the zip on his fastball. We lost Kubiak and gained Heimerdinger and in the process we lost our offense. Hopefully we will do much better this season with Dinger off trying to ruin Vince Young's career.

    Rather than blame Jake and elevate Cutler to the heights of supremacy, lets' remember that the Broncos have so far lost more than they won with Jay (though I will say up front that in a team game, it's not all Jay's fault any more than it was Jake's fault that he was benched as a winning QB.)

    Jake is gone. His NFL career is done and he will not be an issue for the Broncos ever again.

    Can we move on and find things about THIS Broncos team to be happy for?

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue719
    replied
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    Will anybody be saying the Broncos got fleeced if either Josh Barrett or Peyton Hillis or both become stars? I believe it was Hillis that was actually selected with the pick the Broncos got from the Bucs, but without two picks in the seventh round, they would have had to pick one or the other. By most accounts, both players should have been long gone by the time the Broncos picked either one in the 7th round.

    In any case, whether Hillis or Barrett become stars or not, the Broncos didn't get fleeced. Exactly how could they insist on the pick escalating based on how much the Bucs received from Plummer upon early retirement? That means the Broncos wouldn't have gotten a pick until next year. They wanted a pick last year but had to settle for one this year. Now these fools want them to wait until next year or however long it could have taken the Bucs to recover the money? That doesn't make any sense.

    Besides, why would the Bucs agree to such a deal anyway? That kind of clause might have been enough to make them walk away from the deal all together. The Broncos needed to get rid of Plummer and it was well worth it to let the Bucs go after the money and not have to give anything more than a 7th round pick if Plummer didn't report to the Bucs. Plummer had already been talking like he wasn't going to hang around to be Jay's back up. It was smart for the Broncos to get something for him. It might turn out to be a Pro Bowler at fullback.
    Very good post and it said everything that needed to be said.

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  • elevation INC
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    [/B]

    I gotta disagree with this one at this point....Brady, Manning, Palmer, Anderson, Girrard, Rivers, Romo, and Hassleback are all better YOu could also make a solid arguement that Eli, Mcnabb, Bulger are better. Sorry man you just cant say that Jay is one of the best. I would agree if you say that he will be, but he has a ways to go


    your ill advised then because if you ask any of the top coaches and scouts who they want on there team at qb and manning and bardy arent options i doubt any of them would take anderson, gerrard, romo, rivers, hassleback, eli, mcnabb or bulger over cutler plain and simple, palmer maybe, but there is a reason scouts hype jay so much. and its because of his skills he has already displayed. you also must realize that the qb's you named except for palmer were all on playoff teams, so they had very good supporting cast where as jay does not.


    you are famous for playing devils advocate and thats fine, but you are a little off base about jay

    Leave a comment:


  • japfaff
    replied
    [/B]
    Originally posted by Archimedes Owl View Post
    Plummer wasn't a bad QB for us.

    I mean, Cutler is already one of the better QBs in the league for us.

    I have to temper myself. To be fair, the fact that Cutler is really terrific isn't a reason to criticize Plummer. He was a good acquisition and I'm glad to have had him when we did. He was the best QB that we could have gotten and I'm glad we did when we did.

    With our offensive mastermind and a good offense and above average defense, we were a good playoff team who did have a shot at the Superbowl if things went well.

    Plummer played well in his role and even surpassed anything expected at times.

    I was always a fan of Plummers and hold no ill regard for him.

    But Cutler is already better than him.

    And Cutler knows what it takes and is willing to do what it takes to compete with the best out there.
    I gotta disagree with this one at this point....Brady, Manning, Palmer, Anderson, Girrard, Rivers, Romo, and Hassleback are all better YOu could also make a solid arguement that Eli, Mcnabb, Bulger are better. Sorry man you just cant say that Jay is one of the best. I would agree if you say that he will be, but he has a ways to go

    Leave a comment:


  • Javalon
    replied
    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    The whole fact that Jake defense was better than Jays works agianst him statistically cause when Denver gets up in games they like to run the hell out of the ball. MOre running less passing. Where last year Jay did nothing but pass the entire second half cause they were alway losing...
    How does that affect his passing percentage, passer rating, rushing yards and INTs? All those areas should have been BETTER with better defenses keeping him from having to play from behind all the time.

    I didn't list yards per game or TDs per game or anything like that for the exact reason you gave.

    I will give you the difference in the defense was termendious. But the offenses are quite similar. Smith at 35 and Lelie or Marshall and Walker. I would take B Marshal and Walker. Throw in Stokley it is a no brainer. RB's Anderson and Bell vs. Henry and Young...
    Plummer started off with Portis, Anderson, Sharpe, a younger Rod Smith, and Ashley at least stretching the field and making some plays. He has a healthy Nalen, Hamilton, etc. and a dominant Lepsis guarding his blindside.

    What did Cutler have? Rod Smith in his last gasp, Walker getting injured and never doing anything else for us. He had both Scheffler and Stokley missing games, with Scheff being very slow to start each season. (He DID have Marshall coming into his own, which was nice.) He had Mike Bell, Tatum Bell, Travis Henry for 5 or 6 games, and a brief bit of Selving Young flashing now and then. He had no respectable LT, Hamilton missing the whole year, Nalen missing most of the year, no respectable RT. He played with freaking Diabetes for a good portion of the year. He had defenses able to pin their ears back and attacking him thanks to our defense not being able to stop anybody... And he STILL put up very good stats!

    I like who plummer had
    TE.. Gram and Schefler in a walk. Sharpe was way past his prime when he came back... The line wasn't great either time. Plummer was able to hide the flaws cause he was really good at selling the play action. There wasn't a lot of difference in the offense... Plummer ran the team better than Jay has to this point.
    Sharpe was still playing well. The line was FAR better than last year. Plummer was great at play action but defense started playing it which is a big part of his downfall. There was a LOT of difference in the offense and I can't even argue logically with you if you don't see that.

    I agree I love Cutler going into his 3rd season. I am just sick of the Jake bashing. We made the play offs every year with Jake and we would have made it in 06. Jay has yet to be a QB with a winning record. Will he be one this year...Maybe Is he going to be a great QB...Maybe Does he have potential...absolutly But the fact of the matter is that jake ran our offense better. If wins are the most important stat, than you cant argue that fact. If passing yards is your thing than you cant argue it. WIth the exception of the Pitt game, and the colts in the playoffs (I know they are big ones), Jake as played his best agianst the Chargers, Chiefs (can you believe they used to be good), the Ravens, and the Pats, he also help his own agianst the colts (until the playoffs). How many teams with a winning record has Jay beaten? I dont think to many. I only remember Pitt and Tenn.
    Once again it's "How many teams has JAY beaten?" It's a freaking team game! Elway was the closest thing to being a one-man winning machine but even He never won a game by himself.

    You argued that stats showed Plummer was better. I showed that was not necessarily the case. Moving on...

    Originally posted by japfaff View Post
    All I am saying is give the guy the credit that he not only deserves, but he earned on the field
    Well, that I can agree with. I'm not Mtnman... I LIKED Jake Plummer. I thought he was pretty solid as a QB when he played within the role the Broncos game him. But I was also keenly aware that he was not a complete quarterback.

    I was actually pissed when we drafted Cutler. I thought there were far more pressing needs at the time than QB. Jake did what was asked of him and I thought he did pretty good overall while he was here. And for that I him.
    Last edited by Javalon; 06-12-2008, 02:10 AM.

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