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  • So I was on Sirius NFL radio...

    Wednesday, about 12:15P Eastern time. If anyone was listening, I was Eric in Syracuse.

    I asked Adam Schein about something that a lot of us have been wondering... and I quote my exact question: "Since Superbowl 32 and 33, has the NFL progressed beyond Shanahan's grasp and if so, should Denver be thinking of perhaps replacing him"

    He then ripped into me asking how many winning seasons have they had since, I said like 3 (I was wrong, 4, but 9-7 is hardly a winning season compared to before). He told me that I was in left field on it. His response is look at the dynasty of the Patriots. I told him that Denver has only 1 post season win, and it was against the Pats! Not only that, but last time I checked, Denver has won IN Foxboro! It got ugly and he ended by hanging up on me. I think he needs to look on here and see other fans thinking what I am thinking.
    Shanahan will always deserve a :salute!:

    The most rowdy orange-jersey-wearing fan in Denver at Buffalo games since 2005!

    September 13, 2009... "The Immaculate Deflection" courtesy of Brandon Stokley!

  • #2
    Here's my take...

    People will throw out a lot of stats at you to try and convince you Mike Shanahan is the greatest coach to ever walk on Earth.

    To me, these are the bottom line numbers I look at:

    9 seasons post-Elway.
    2 losing seasons.
    4 Playoff seasons.
    1 Playoff victory (only 9 teams in the NFL have as bad or worse of a playoff record over the past 9 seasons).
    1-4 in the playoffs.
    Being outscored 145-54 in those losses (a staggering 36-13 margin).

    Pretty much for me, the only highlight for Shanahan post-Elway is our dominance of the Patriots, which is countered by our beat-downs from the Colts.

    I don't know if the game has passed Shanahan by. But I definitely think the team has become stagnant, and it's reflected amongst fans in the stands at Invesco, across the Internet, and around town. Yes, we still love our Broncos. But the enthusiasm isn't as rampant as it once was even just 5 seasons ago.

    Having said that, I'm willing to give Shanahan a clean slate after last season, as I don't believe the Broncos could or should be that bad again under Shanahan, and thus far, he has said and done the right things in the offseason that I believe have put the team back on track. I don't know if I expect us to make the playoffs this season (actually I don't), but I think a competitive 8-8 or 9-7 will be a start in the right direction, and will give me optimism for this team for future seasons.
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    • #3
      Just my opinion but I think if we'd played anybody but the Colts in their stadium for those two blowout losses we would probably not even be having this conversation. After one game for Manning & Co. to figure out our D, they've completely had our number since.

      Anyway, you'll always get mixed opinions on Shanahan until he gets the team back to some regular success, and not just non-losing seasons. Even his fans, me included, are craving more success than we've had recently. Of course, we could always be the Cowboys who have fared even worse despite being America's Team and luring more big name talent.

      All I know is that the Steelers were smart to not give up on Bill Cowher and he eventually got them turned around. Shanahan is a good coach and I'm optimistic that we're on the verge of returning to perennial Super Bowl contenders. I figure he's got this year and next to get us back into shape before even Pat Bowlen loses his patience. But that's obviously just a guesstimation.
      "You can't take the sky from me..."
      ------
      "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

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      • #4
        The truth is.. that Shanahan has kept us more competitive than any other Coach and/or franchise that has lost a franchise QB. If you think thats such a useless stat, then why is it that no other team can seem to succeed?

        People want to 'cry' that its been 10 years... teh Cowboys... a team that people around here think have been the PINNACLE of success and rebuilding.. haven't won a playoff game in 13 years.

        The truth is.. people want to look at the 'stats' to try and convince you that we havent' been competitive simply because we haven't DOMINATED in the last 10 years. People want to bring up the Patriots "dominance"...yet.. where was THEIR dominance when WE were winning? Funny how everything is circular, and people don't want to accept their downside of that circle.

        I'll post it again for Fun.. but there isn't anyone here YET that has convinced me that we would be better off to go through the coaching merri-go-round simply to TRY and find a coach that is as good as Mike Shanahan is and has been. We could end up with another version of Norv Turner... ... do you REALLY want that????? god.

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        • #5
          Hey guys. Just Glance over this for fun and comparisons, take a look at how our team has been doing compared to others. I've read a lot of frustration over the team and one of the first things that always seems to be brought up is Shanahan, and how he "hasn't been able to do it since Elway"... then some want to mention just how "LONG" it has been since we have been to the SB. But I wanted to share some comparisons of Shanahan's record (post-Elway) to any of the coaches in the league and throughout history that have suffered through the same situation.

          I think we all know that every coache's success is directly related to the QB he has. So many want to point out that "Shanahan can't win the SB without Elway"... but how many did Walsh win without Montana, Noll without Bradshaw, Shula
          ---------------------------------------
          Shanahan in the 9 Seasons since winning our last SB, and losing our franchise QB is 83-61. Thats a 57.6 winning percentage. We've been to the playoffs in four different seasons '00, '03, '04, '05.. have been to the AFC Championship with a 1-4 playoff record. The Broncos have had 2 season with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Elway.

          Chuck Noll in the 9 seasons after losing Bradshaw was 70-73. Thats a 48.9 winning percentage, and they went to the playoffs in 3 different seasons.. '83, '84, '89.. and had a 2-3 playoff record, and one AFC Championship game... and only 1 coach. The Noll Steelers had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 years post Bradshaw.

          Tom Landry in the 9 seasons since losing Roger Staubach went 78-58. Thats a 57.3 winning percent percentage. Tom's Cowboys went to the playoffs 4 seasons after...'80, '81, '83, '85 and had a 3-4 playoff record and one NFC Championship Game appearance ('80). Had just ONE coach. **would like to note that Landry went from Staubach to Danny White and still had Tony Dorsett, but thats neither here nor there** The Landry Cowboys had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 years post Staubach.

          I used Noll and Landry first, since they were the only two coaches to stay with a team for 9+ years after losing a franchise QB (they weren't franchise QBs back then, but you know what I mean).....and interestingly enough, the teams that stuck with the ONE coach, all had the biggest winning percentages and the most playoff appearances. **Shula wasn't shown because I am comparing coaches records that have LOST a franchise/HoF QB... Shula went a whopping 3 years between Griese and Marino**

          The rest here, are those franchises that have lost THEIR Franchise/HoF QB within the last 10years to show/see how they have recouped since. These are the Niners, the Dolphins, the Bills, and the Cowboys.

          The Dolphins since losing Marino (9 years)... are 61-67, 46.8%, and have 2 playoff seasons.. '00, '01.. with a 1-2 playoff record. In those 8 seasons, they have had 4 different coaches (Johnson, Wannstedt, Saban, Cameron). Now they are on their FIFTH new HC. The Dolphins have had 3 seasons below 7 wins in the 8 seasons post Marino.

          The Niners since losing Young (9 years).. are 57-87...39.5%.. and have 2 playoff seasons...'01, '02.. with a 1-2 playoff record. In the 8 years since Young's retirement the Niners have had 3 different coaches (Mariucci, Erickson, Nolan). The Niners have had SEVEN seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Young.

          The Buffalo Bills since losing Kelly (9 years)..are 65-79...45.1%.. and have 2 playoff seasons... '98, '99.. and are 0-2 with no AFCCG. Since Kelly's retirement, the Bills have had 4 different coaches (Phillips, Williams, Mularky, Juron)...**their ninth season ('06) the were 7-9** The Bills have had 5 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Kelly.

          The Dallas Cowboys since losing Aikman (7 years)...are 57-55... 50.8%... and have had 3 playoff seasons.. '03, '06, and '07.. and are 0-3 with no NFCCG appearance. In the 7 years, they have had 3 different coaches (Campo, Parcells, Phillips). **also note, that now that the Cowboys are under their second season with their newest Franchise quality QB, the cowboys are again looking good** The Cowboys had 3 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the seven seasons post Aikman.

          The Indy Colts BEFORE Manning (9 years)..were 58-86....40.2%...had 2 playoff seasons...'95, '96... were 2-2 and had one AFCCG ('95). They had 4 coaches in those 9 years ( Meyer, Venturi, Marchibroda, Infante)...**although Venturi was just a replacement coach for Meyer for part season** (Colts have had 2 coaches since having Manning, Mora and Dungy). The Colts had 3 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons prior to Manning.

          The NE Patriots BEFORE Brady (9 years). The NE Patriots were closer to the situation of Shula with Griese and Marino. The Patriots of course just prior to Brady had Bledsoe at QB, and Parcells at coach. So even WITh having a HoF coach, and a Franchise QB... the 9 years prior to Brady the NE Patriots were 66-78...45.8%..with 4 playoff seasons ...'94, '96, '97, '98...and one SB appearance... a 3-3 playoff record. The Patriots had 3 coaches in the 8 seasons before Brady (Parcells, Carroll, Belicheck) The Patriots had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons prior to Brady. **interestingly enough, the Patriots were 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 under Carroll and before Belicheck... and Belicheck raised them to a 5-11 season his first year.. the only year without Brady.**

          LOOKING at all the numbers and stats here... Shanahan has the BIGGEST winning percentage of any head coach that has lost a Franchise QB. Shanahan has more playoff seasons than ANY other coach that has lost a franchise QB... other than Landry. But the BIGGEST thing I find interesting... is that the THREE teams that kept the ONE coach (Pittsburgh, Cowboys, Denver).. are the biggest winners.
          Last edited by Ravage!!!; 07-31-2008, 09:31 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
            The truth is.. that Shanahan has kept us more competitive than any other Coach and/or franchise that has lost a franchise QB. If you think thats such a useless stat, then why is it that no other team can seem to succeed?

            People want to 'cry' that its been 10 years... teh Cowboys... a team that people around here think have been the PINNACLE of success and rebuilding.. haven't won a playoff game in 13 years.

            The truth is.. people want to look at the 'stats' to try and convince you that we havent' been competitive simply because we haven't DOMINATED in the last 10 years. People want to bring up the Patriots "dominance"...yet.. where was THEIR dominance when WE were winning? Funny how everything is circular, and people don't want to accept their downside of that circle.

            I'll post it again for Fun.. but there isn't anyone here YET that has convinced me that we would be better off to go through the coaching merri-go-round simply to TRY and find a coach that is as good as Mike Shanahan is and has been. We could end up with another version of Norv Turner... ... do you REALLY want that????? god.

            For me, it's not about dominance. It's about seeing progression and seeing this team move forward and in the right direction, and not repeat it's past mistakes. It's about adpating and changing philosophy, and not being overly dependent on free agency because of our inability to draft better. It's about improving our drafting ability and being willing to part with aging vets that are past their prime, and allowng younger guys to step up.

            I don't necessarily NEED the Broncos to be the most dominant team. I just don't feel we've really moved anywhere under Shanahan post-Elway, save for one season, which I have to give him credit for, as I believe that was his best year of coaching ever (speaking of the 2005 season). But one really good season does not make up for 8 mostly average seasons.

            I know you LOVE to throw that stat about losing one's franchise QB, ravage. What you fail to point out, however, is that the salary cap was instituted after most of those coaches had already left the game, thus evening out the playing field. I expect Shanahan to have a better record than some of those coaches because the league is designed today for every team to have a competitive chance each and every season, and Bowlen isn't a penny pincher when it comes to signing players. It wasn't like that in the days of Landry, Shula, or Noll. When their vets retired or moved on, they were left with nothing, and no real means to acquire adequate replacements. Shanahan coaches in an era where he has serveral outlets to acquire good players, wheter through the draft, where the athletes are more talented and the scouting process more in depth, through free agency, or through trade. He just hasn't made the best decisions with some of his acquisitions.

            Again, having said that, I think he's finally realized the error of his ways, and is moving in the right direction. Ultimately, time will tell. I just think that it's a two-way street with Shanahan. He may deserve credit for keeping us competitive, but he also deserves blame for why this team is stagnant and hasn't been able to win more than one divisional title or one playoff game in 9 seasons
            Last edited by mojo0730; 07-31-2008, 09:54 PM.
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            • #7
              Good Post Ravage! I agree with your evaluation and your examples. By the way, The post Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills would have also been relevant.

              It amazes me that when people like this poster make the statements they do, nobody asks them the most pertinent question: Who do you replace him with? I hear Marty Shottenheimer is looking for work.

              So let's hear it Mr. not so Sirius, lay out the plan so Mr. Bowlen can understand REAL genius, fire coach Shannahan, hire you and we can dominate the league once again.
              Last edited by Javalon; 07-31-2008, 10:19 PM. Reason: Removed insult

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                I know you LOVE to throw that stat about losing one's franchise QB, ravage. What you fail to point out, however, is that the salary cap was instituted after most of those coaches had already left the game, thus evening out the playing field. I expect Shanahan to have a better record than some of those coaches because the league is designed today for every team to have a competitive chance each and every season, and Bowlen isn't a penny pincher when it comes to signing players.
                Interesting.. because that is the EXACT same reasons that people say THOSE coaches had the bigger advantage and thus were ABLE to keep their franchise dominance. Players were unable to move away and or leave. They were able to keep the same great players no matter what. So the VERY fact that Shanahan has been able to accomplish what they did DURING FA, makes my points FOR shanahan that much stronger!! Thank you!

                Also... that being the case, how come Shanahan's record is STILL better than the Patriots, and the Colts PRIOR to getting Manning and Brady?? Those were years in the same FA period. Thus again.. making my point that SHanahan has been keeping us more competitive than any team has prior or after they had their franchise QB.

                I've also compared the number of division titles and visits to the conference Championship games in the same number of years. You may wish to dismiss, and assume that the comparisons are an even match....but you would be wrong. They are.... the difference is that you are one that feels 10 years to come back from such a talented team is to be expected. Thats just not truly realistic if you look throughout the history of the NFL.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by RichardC View Post
                  By the way, The post Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills would have also been relevant.
                  Interesting... I think I originally had the Bills listed... I think when I had to redo after losing my computer I must have forgotten them..... but definitely need to put them back in.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RichardC View Post
                    Good Post Ravage! You only forgot one thing. Logic and comparative records are a waste of time when arguing with an IDIOT. I agree with your evaluation and your examples. By the way, The post Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills would have also been relevant.

                    It amazes me that when people like this poster make the statements they do, nobody asks them the most pertinent question: Who do you replace him with? I hear Marty Shottenheimer is looking for work.

                    So let's hear it Mr. not so Sirius, lay out the plan so Mr. Bowlen can understand REAL genius, fire coach Shannahan, hire you and we can dominate the league once again.
                    Perhaps you could refrain from calling people names for simply sharing an opinion?

                    Talk of Shanahan being past his prime has been rampant for years now. It's been discussed by several local and national media agencies and outlets, as well as an increasing number of fans. Basically, both camps have solid arguments supported by facts, and neither is an idiot, IMO. They just choose to support one set of facts over the other.
                    Last edited by mojo0730; 07-31-2008, 10:10 PM.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                      Interesting.. because that is the EXACT same reasons that people say THOSE coaches had the bigger advantage and thus were ABLE to keep their franchise dominance. Players were unable to move away and or leave. They were able to keep the same great players no matter what. So the VERY fact that Shanahan has been able to accomplish what they did DURING FA, makes my points FOR shanahan that much stronger!! Thank you!

                      Also... that being the case, how come Shanahan's record is STILL better than the Patriots, and the Colts PRIOR to getting Manning and Brady?? Those were years in the same FA period. Thus again.. making my point that SHanahan has been keeping us more competitive than any team has prior or after they had their franchise QB.

                      I've also compared the number of division titles and visits to the conference Championship games in the same number of years. You may wish to dismiss, and assume that the comparisons are an even match....but you would be wrong. They are.... the difference is that you are one that feels 10 years to come back from such a talented team is to be expected. Thats just not truly realistic if you look throughout the history of the NFL.
                      But many of those teams ultimately lose or replace their head coach after having such a talented team.

                      And of those coaches you mentioned, none of them - Landry, Shula, Noll - ever returned to the promised land once they lost their HOF QB. And only one ever went back to the Super Bowl, and that was with Dan Marino under center.

                      So basically, your stat proves that, while Shanahan may have kept the team more competitive than those other coaches, none of them were ultimately able to maintain or recapture their prime years. What makes Shanahan different?
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                      • #12
                        I listened to the show as well and heard you on there. But I would have hung up on you as well. Especially after you cussed at him. That was just rude and uncalled for. I couldn't believe that once you started cussing. So he did the right thing.

                        And I don't think the NFL has gotten past Shanny. You cant just expect to win the SB every year. For the most part we usually make the playoffs. We've had a rough past 2 years but other then that were always right there. 9-7 or 7-9 is a bad season for us. For some teams thats an average season and then theres teams like the Raiders who would kill for a 7-9 season.

                        I think coaches like Joe Gibbs who miss 20 years or whatever of coaching and then come back miss a lot and arn't what they were. I don't worry about Shanny at all. If we miss the playoffs this year then we might have a change but I don't see it happening. He's been our coach for a while now and I don't see it changing. He's in the same class as a Fisher and Cowher.

                        I expect a good season this year.

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                        • #13
                          The funny thing about this whole situation is that some people feel that perhaps it's time for Shanahan to be replaced, but I never hear from those people who they would rather have or atleast who they'd look to replace Shanahan with. If elite head coaches were so easy to find then I'm sure teams like Miami and Oakland wouldn't be looking for a new one every couple of years.

                          People like to bring up the New England dynasty and compare our situation to theirs, but how many teams have had that kind of success over such a short period of time in this day an age? The Colts and Tony Dungy, for all that talent they've had offensively, have only managed to capture one ring in how many years? The Eagles and Andy Reid went to many NFC Championships and one Super Bowl but they never won anything. How many Super Bowls do the amazingly talented San Diego Chargers have for all the great drafting they've done in the last 4-6 years?

                          Some people also like to point out that we have one playoff win in like 10 years, but how many do the Chiefs have in the time frame? None. How many do the Chargers have for all the talent they're loaded with? Two? Wow, that is so amazing. The Colts have one ring for having probably one of the top 5 QB's of all time. Just like any other Broncos fan, I'd love to see Denver get back to the upper echelon of the league and I'm sure that can happen someday, especially with a coach that is already well established like Mike is.

                          I'd just like to see some coaches that some of you people who want Shanahan out so badly, or atleast think it might be time to consider it, have in mind. Bill Cowher? Please. Pittsburgh fans were moaning and crying for him to leave for how many years until he was finally able to get them one. People around here will look at him as a God though because he was able to get one more recently than Shanahan.
                          Last edited by Spyder; 08-01-2008, 04:53 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                            But many of those teams ultimately lose or replace their head coach after having such a talented team.

                            And of those coaches you mentioned, none of them - Landry, Shula, Noll - ever returned to the promised land once they lost their HOF QB. And only one ever went back to the Super Bowl, and that was with Dan Marino under center.

                            So basically, your stat proves that, while Shanahan may have kept the team more competitive than those other coaches, none of them were ultimately able to maintain or recapture their prime years. What makes Shanahan different?
                            Jay Cutler.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Orale Holmes View Post
                              Jay Cutler.
                              As good as Jay may be, the jury is still out on him. Thus far, he has a losing record as a starter, hasn't been to the playoffs, and hasn't been voted to any pro bowls.

                              I know Broncos fans like to think he's going to be a superstar, but he may also bust. We'll find out this season.
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