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  • #46
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    OK, but it's not like he has not 'blown up' the team before...that is essentially what he did when he got Plummer, traded Portis for Bailey and traded/signed the 'Browncos'...
    all of which resulted in a single game away from the Super Bowl.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
      all of which resulted in a single game away from the Super Bowl.
      In a game in which they were not close to competitive in.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
        all of which resulted in a single game away from the Super Bowl.
        Say what you will, but the fact remains that our defense wasn't good enough to win a championship then. Our current
        defense now isn't half of what that defense was. Sorry.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Bowie Man View Post
          Mindfield, even if you have a point about the defense, you don't have to bring it up every week, that's not necessary. If you don't bring it up every week I apologize, but it at least seems like you do. Broncos fans are excited(and rightfully so) because a)we're 3-1, last time I checked that's a winning record. You can debate it all you want, but we're 3-1. b)our offense has looked spectacular. Last week we had 4 turnovers, but that was one week. Last year Manning turned it over 6 times in one game, and nobody was screaming that the Colts' offense was bad. c)we're leading the division. Charger fans can whimp and whine all they want, but we're ahead right now. d) we have made big improvements last year, and our offense will only get better(barring some freak accident). e) Our defense has at least shown promise(according to some) that it can hold defenses to field goals most of the time, which usually means we can win. That's a lot to be excited about. The Broncos have a real shot at making the playoffs, and that's a lot better than the past few years. I don't see any reason to be negative when most of us knew that we would have problems this year and guess what, we're having them, but the Broncos are moving in the right direction and I think we should all be excited about that.
          This is how it works.

          I make a post after each game as a review, or on a topic that I see as relevant to the Broncos.

          If it is not completely positive, I get attacked personally.

          I guess most of this board are closet Communists, because apparently you are not allowed to have an opinion that differs from the majority, or is remotely critical of the Broncos.

          I was a journalism student at one time, and my style is in that vein.

          When I make an observation about the team, it is my honest opinion, it is not designed to be 'negative'. If you disagree with me, fine, but I won't tolerate someone attacking me personally, and you would not beleive some of the stuff that has been posted here about me.

          I think Ravage, for instance, had me engaging with farm animals or some such attack, so you can see the marginal intelligence I have to deal with here on a consistent basis.

          Because I am critical of the Broncos, the mods pick and choose what they enforce with relation to the personal attack infractions, but unless it is completely over-the-top, I don't report it.

          My problem is, I let some of the scum around here drag me down into a debate that results in trading insults, and I get an infraction.

          I should have better self-control, and I have always admired columnists like Woody Paige and Mark Kizla for that, because they get terrible personal attacks, which are now evenposted on-line, and they just let it roll off thier backs.

          So, I am glad I did not go into that profession.

          But I have posted here for a long time. I like to converse about the draft and the NFL in general, and I have made some 'friends' here, for lack of a better term. What is sad is that alot of the guys that used to post here are gone, because the quality of the posters here have dramatically decreased...

          The truth is I am a Broncos fan and a diehard, but I am not a Mike Shanahan fan. That is the source of most of my frustration, because I think his time has come and gone. There are just too many flaws in his philosophies about running the team that I know ultimately they are not going to win another Super Bowl with him at the helm, and since Bowlen has given him carte blanche in terms of control, with no apparent accountablilty, my suffering appears to have no end in sight.

          ...and after all, isn't that what they play the games for?

          As I posted before, Brian Billick won a Super Bowl with the Ravens more recently than Shanahan, and more playoff games this decade if I am not mistaken, and he is out of a job.

          If the Broncos do not make the playoffs this year, that will make three straight, which has not happened since the early 1980's. He will have won just one Division title in the last decade, with four total playoff appearances. In all of the Wild Card games, the Broncos were an embarassment to Bronco fans everywhere. That would also mean he has missed the playoffs six out of the last ten years.

          He had a great draft in 2006, which has put the Broncos back on the competitive map, and this years draft looks good so far...but the 2007 draft looks like a disaster, so it cannot be assumed he has 'fixed' his personnel judgement, and that is the proimary reason the Broncos slipped to begin with.

          So really, what am I missing here about him that he can turn it around except to depend on blind faith??
          Last edited by MindField; 10-02-2008, 07:29 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by MindField View Post



            The truth is I am a Broncos fan and a diehard, but I am not a Mike Shanahan fan. That is the source of most of my frustration, because I think his time has come and gone, and there are just too many flaws in his philosophies about running the team that I know ultimately they are not going to win another Super Bowl with him at the helm.

            ...and after all, isn't that what they play the games for?
            Speaking of the defense and philosophies I wonder why we chose to try to build our d around the secondary rather than the front 7.We traded our best player at the time Portis for a corner Champ and drafted a whole bunch of corners.We pretty much neglected drafting pass rushers and this is where we are.Shanny is one of the great offensive minds but we really need somone other than him and Slowik to get this D respectable again.

            Comment


            • #51
              I didn't want to quote that long post, but I agree with just about everything you said concerning attacks and such. I just don't agree on the football part. I'm a big fan of Shanny and I think he's doing a great job. Insulting a person is a little out of hand, but I definitely think the mods do their best to be fair when judging posters' comments. I have seen posts insulting you, but I've also seen posts of you insulting people, so I didn't like you posting about being personally attacked. Either way, I try to stay out of heated discussions in the first place, unless it involves another team.
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              Made by Houshmazode

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MindField View Post
                Fine, then consider me a fan of another team if you like.

                Either way, you and your kind are competely incapable of debating or discussing the Broncos for what they are.

                In reality, this post, and others like that of Orage Nut are essentially consession speaches...you can't hang, so, 'Please go away and stop harassing us...'

                Pathetic.

                The only thing that's pathetic is your categorizing people who are viewing this team in a positive light as blind homers.

                I've said over and over again, I agree with you--I don't see how anyone couldn't--that this defense is horrendous and we will not go anywhere with it.

                However, unlike you, I'm not letting that ruin this season for me. I love football, and I love watching this team play, and right now they're as exciting to watch as ever.

                NO ONE IS EXPECTING A SUPERBOWL THIS YEAR. I don't see what's so hard to notice about that. We have to make changes on defense, yes, but we can't do everything at once.

                We've now successfully transformed our offense into one of the league's best, and we can only improve upon it by improving our rush defense.

                Our defense blows, and we'll able to fix that during the offseason.

                You can't go from a non factor to a super bowl winner in one year, it's a step-by-step process, and despite what you think I believe that Shanny and Co. have done a great job getting us back into contention.

                Luck, bad calls, whatever...we're 3-1. Our defense will get better as the season progresses, because...it can't get worse.

                And hell, the running game is good for 14th in the NFL so it can't be THAT bad.

                So tell me exactly, what's pathetic about my view of this team?

                Is it that I'm going to enjoy watching them play, while understanding that they need to improve?

                Or do I need to switch to your way of watching, and criticize everything until I hate the whole team.
                Administrator

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MindField View Post
                  As I posted before, Brian Billick won a Super Bowl with the Ravens more recently than Shanahan, and more playoff games this decade if I am not mistaken, and he is out of a job.
                  How many losing seasons did Billick also have? I think thats why Shanny is still here, because we are always contention for a playoff spot.


                  He had a great draft in 2006, which has put the Broncos back on the competitive map, and this years draft looks good so far...but the 2007 draft looks like a disaster, so it cannot be assumed he has 'fixed' his personnel judgement, and that is the proimary reason the Broncos slipped to begin with.
                  Id still wait for a bit before saying the 07 draft was a disaster. Moss still has time to blossom, Crowder has shown promise and some great flashes at time, and Thomas and Harris are both starters. And this draft, along with the UDFA have looked petty darn good so far.

                  So really, what am I missing here about him that he can turn it around except to depend on blind faith??
                  The fact that Shanny now has his QB, and that the team is young. We went from an extremely veteran unit, to one with great youth in only a season.

                  When the offense gets more consistent (not if, but when), this team will be truly fearsome.
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                  I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
                  SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by gaberox View Post
                    Speaking of the defense and philosophies I wonder why we chose to try to build our d around the secondary rather than the front 7.We traded our best player at the time Portis for a corner Champ and drafted a whole bunch of corners.We pretty much neglected drafting pass rushers and this is where we are.Shanny is one of the great offensive minds but we really need somone other than him and Slowik to get this D respectable again.
                    I could not agree more.

                    The Chicago Bears, Pittsburgh Steelers among others have had pretty good defenses over the years, and they have had marginal corners at best.

                    I also wondered why they just let Bert Berry and Reggie Hayward walk.

                    If the Broncos front office had been on their game, they could have signed both players for significantly less than what they eventually got in free agency. They key is to anticipate the good players, and what they will become, and sign them a year before they hit free agnecy.

                    You saw the Eagles do that over the last year or so by re-signing players such as Mike Patterson and Trent Cole, and getting it done to very reasonable contracts.

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                    • #55
                      Blah~~

                      You're right, you have every right to post this crap here. I, for one, will never read it again. L8R.
                      There goes the franchise...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        See, I understand your points. My opinion is that they really don't hold water. You believe that we need to be a larger and more physical offense and defense, while Shanahan has usually gone with the smaller and faster route. Well, consider the pros and cons of Shanahan's approach:

                        Benefit: With the larger more physical line, you're contending with the same pool of players as the majority of NFL teams. But if you're focused on a *different* style of football (faster, lighter, zone-blocking), then you're going to be contending for a smaller pool of players and you'll find some nuggets undrafted, which keeps us contending every single year (except for our two *barely* losing seasons).

                        Negative: During the offseason and training camp, it's more difficult to get practice against the types of teams you'll play during the season because your opponents (your own defensive/offensive lines) don't recreate these scenarios. Which is why I think these Dallas scrims are a valuable tool.

                        I agree that our defense needs to improve. And where we need it most is on the front four... that group needs to improve dramatically if we're going to become worthwhile (and it wouldn't hurt to have a better mlb, imo).

                        But I think you're mistaken if you think only the play of traditionally successful football teams is the way to be successful in the contemporary game. I think you see, continually, the game evolving and as it evolves, teams that do extraordinary things.

                        Being beat by KC didn't surprise me even slightly. And *not* because we're soft and weak... but because we have a *horrid* history of overlooking desperate or "nothing to lose" opponents. That's why so many fans like to be the underdog... we always seem to put on our best performances when we shouldn't win. Before the season began, no one "reality" poster picked us to win the SD game... half of us expected us to lose both the Oakland game *and* the NO game. Yet, we won all 3. At the same time, almost all of us expected us to win the KC game (excepting maybe a few "realists" like yourself). Why? Because we expected Cutler and crew to work their usual magic and even our horrid defense to be "ok" against the horrid KC offense. We under-performed as usual in such a situation. KC has always been Shanny's nemesis since his arrival and it's not surprising to see it continue.

                        All that said, I'd like to ask you a very simple question:

                        If we end up 10-6 at the end of the season, will you say to everyone, "It's great we made the playoffs, but we shouldn't have? We should be 8-8! We're going to get killed in the playoffs!"

                        If we end up winning one or two playoff games, what will you say then? I mean, you predict we're going to have a losing season. That's your realistic point of view. Ok, I get that. But you're so sure of it. The Patriots lost the SB. They were 18-0 prior to that final game. Are you going to tell me that they had no chance to win prior to that final game? Were you predicting the Giants to win? That was a very close game, yet you use it as an example to prove that that style of play is ineffective. Yet, they had a winning season (extraordinarily so) and the final game was very close... the Giants just outplayed the offense with their defense, and came up big with their own offense.

                        Also, this issue of being a realist... I can appreciate that. I'm a big believer in objectivity. For example, I think the Broncos and the Saints are very similar teams: potent offenses that are QB-inspired with paper-thin armor in their defense. Yet the Saints have proven that they can make it to the playoffs and the SB. That you can have a winning season with a remarkably bad defense. The key is simply for the defense to be simply good enough to hold the opposing offense on a few more drives than their defense is capable of holding our offense. With such a high-powered offense, that's not asking a *whole* lot. The problem is, right now, it seems to be asking too much of our defense. I do think we'll get better as the season wears on, defensively, simply because there's still so much room for growth in terms of chemistry and experience for our youthful players. So, from a realistic point of view, I do believe we have good chances and I think it merely requires our offense to continue to perform well and our defense to improve *some*. But a lot of posters have commented on your negativity and I have to say I can understand, objectively, their point as well. You claim "realist" and "non-homer" and "not blinded" and "unbiased". But perhaps you merely miss your own negative prejudices. I mean, anyone who watches our beloved team play, can't help but see this pillow-soft defense, the weak skills of our kicking coverage, nor can they help but see this Shock-and-Awe offense, the surprisingly impressive play of our new kicker, and good punting by our punter. But what do you focus on??? The defense, the poor kick coverage, and any "vulnerability" you can on our *very effective* offense (the RB situation). Our RBs are proving to be very effective, regardless of opinion, they are moving the chains, churning up the yards, and doing very well. No really long rips, but consistent. Why aren't you talking up our team just as much as you're talking it down? I mean, there's certainly as much to talk up as there is to talk down, right? Of course not?

                        Anyway, I think a lot of people see the patterns. How we're doing very effective against the run, yet giving up the big play from time to time. How we've been making every QB look like Drew Brees or Tony Romo or Tom Brady, regardless of their actual skill level. We can't stop the pass to save our soul. And it's concerning. Our combined offensive moving and defensive holding needs to be better than our opponents offensive moving and defensive holding. Well, it's hard to get better results than our offense (usually), so it only takes a little bit more improvement on our defense to make us a playoff contending team. And I don't see how we don't improve going through the season. Too much youth gaining experience to not improve.

                        At least... in my objective, realistic, opinion.
                        The clever man delivers reasonable, rational, and sometimes irrefutable arguments. The wise man understands the futility of reasonable, rational, and irrefutable arguments. I'm neither wise, nor, I suspect, very clever.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Okay, if I am one of "those posters" that drag you down into personal insults, then I apologize, I really try to engage you on the facts and the issues - by the way, I'm surprised to hear you got an infraction, hope it wasn't on my account.

                          But you're right, neither of us have time or interest in just trading insults, so lets talk football.

                          Fact: our defense is struggling right now as they are giving up the big play in the running game, and couldn't stop the pass to beat the band. This is due to our personnel choices over the past 8 years mostly, some due to scheme (although our scheme is dictated by our lack of personnel). Out of everything we've seen from the Broncos, the defense is probably the main issue that everyone will agree has no excuse, it is what it is.

                          Fact: Our run game is not as dominant as it was in the past, but being ranked in the mid-pack of the NFL, especially with how dominant our passing attack has been, is not completely horrible. Add to this, that we are going to get a boost (in some fashion or another) in Torain coming back and there is reason for hope here.

                          Fact: Our offensive passing attack is dominant and is the reason we are the #1 ranked offense in the NFL through 4 games.

                          Fact: Our special teams, while having improved from last year, still shows the occasional tendency to give up the big return. This hasn't been helped by rookie jitters on several shanks from Kern. Good news though, Prater looks like the real deal.

                          Fact: Our record is 3-1. We were dominant over a clearly inferior Oakland team, we hung on by our chinny-chin-chin over decent SD and New Orleans teams, and didn't take KC seriously enough, came out flat and got surprised by an upset there. Part of our problem with SD, NO and KC was that we made some stupid mistakes, we had some uncalled for conservative play calling in the 3rd quarters, and...well of course our defense as we have already mentioned.

                          Fact: We have a relatively easy schedule ahead of us. Our division competitors have a tough road ahead of them. SD is 2-2 but we hold the edge in the tiebreak for now, and they have a much tougher schedule on their plate. I think we'll all agree Oakland and KC aren't in contention.

                          The point is, bad teams don't beat SD and NO in those games, they aren't competitive enough. Comparing last year to this year, I'll take this year's outcome over the thumping SD gave us in 2007. Even if we had lost SD, as close as it was it still would have been an improvement. We are 3-1 and that's the way it is. We have an easy schedule ahead of us, and I think have reason to be optimistic about our chances within the division. This would mean a playoff berth. Sure, we probably wouldn't realistically hope for either a first round bye or home field as Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Tennessee are all better than us right now, but it's better than last year and the year before.

                          I appreciate your viewpoint Mindfield, and if posters like you weren't here, well I suppose the boards would be pretty boring. What I would like for you though, is for you to actually enjoy the season as opposed to lamenting it. 0-3, 1-3, losing your starting QB or a string of injuries, having Al Davis running the show, these are reasons to lament a season. 3-1 is not lamentable.

                          What are you missing you ask? You're missing the fact that things are getting better, year by year, since we started retooling in 2006, and that it's actually fun to watch your favorite team! What can I do to convince you this is actually so? Even Bernie Lincicome has taken a more positive tone in his columns this year (which I didn't think possible).

                          Do we have issues? Of course. Are they as bad as you suggest? No.

                          You say you are a die-hard fan of the orange and blue, but that you don't like Shanahan. You were perhaps a fan of Wade Phillips? Dan Reeves? Red Miller? John Ralston?

                          How many superbowls did they win? How many times did they have teams that missed the playoffs? Did they ever field teams that had problems on defense?

                          Has Shanny done everything right? No, but he's a darn good coach and this team is doing some great things. Sit back, kick the shoes off, pop open a cold one and ENJOY!!!!!!
                          To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Bigplayshay84 View Post
                            Say what you will, but the fact remains that our defense wasn't good enough to win a championship then. Our current defense now isn't half of what that defense was. Sorry.
                            I never said our defense was.. and have been a constant complainer about how horrible our defense is. But lets get realistic. Just because the defense is bad, doesn't mean ALL is horrible, and the season is at an end, and we haven't improved at all! Thats absolutely ridiculous.

                            The Baltimore Ravens won a SB with defense. They have had a VERY good defense every since. How many AFC Championships have they been to since??? I'll even go a step further, how many playoff games have they won since that SB win, with their VERY good defense??

                            The Pittsburgh Steelers have always had a very good defense. How many AFC Championships have they been to in the last 10 years with that very good defense?

                            The Chicago Bears have had very good defenses for YEARS now.. they went to a SB, but couldn't go back to the playoffs. How many AFC Championships/playoff games have they won OTHER than that trip to the bowl? Who had the better defense in that SB against the COlts?

                            The Tampa Bay Bucs have always had a good defense...same question.

                            Jacksonville Jags??

                            Its not EASY to build a team that has both a good defense and a good offense. Right now we have a GOOD offense that is one key player from being a VERY good offense.

                            NO.. our defense is NOT good enough to win a championship. Its not even good enough to win a play-off game right now. But for ANYONE to sit here and tell me that the team hasn't improved because the defense isn't stellar, is just being ASININE! Its completely absurd, and completely and TOTALLY untrue. It has no merit, and is simply a "whoa is me" reaction to the team losing in KC.
                            Last edited by Ravage!!!; 10-03-2008, 01:43 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by MindField View Post
                              Now you know why people say the Broncos are lucky not to be 1-3.

                              When you can't run the football at will...and the Broncos can't...

                              When your Defense sucks...and the Broncos does...

                              When your Special Teams suck...and the Broncos does...

                              All it takes is a team that plays physical, and is willing to beat up the Broncos, which the Chiefs absolutley did today. That is what I will take away from this game more than anything else is that the Chiefs obviously did not respect the Broncos on a physical level, and were simply commited to kicking their tail physically.

                              The Broncos have all of thses cute plays and formations, and what were they worth today?

                              Jack squat.

                              If Jay Cutler has an off day, or the O-Line can't pass block, the Broncos are dead meat, period,
                              because they are an inferior team on 2/3 of the other parts of their team.

                              You can't throw the ball all over the yard and forget to run the ball.

                              I have no idea why Shanahan has fallen so far head-over-heels for all of this spread Offense crap, but if he does not remember that you have to run the ball fist in the NFL, he is going to watch the Broncos season go right down the drain.

                              The Broncos have two more very physical games coming up against Tampa Bay and Jacksonville, who beat Denver's a** last year.

                              That is the one ting I always sense about Mike Shanahan's teams...underneath it all, they are soft and vulnerale to tough, physical football teams, and they got spanked today for that very reason.

                              Too bad the refs could not bail them out today...
                              Even though I remain reasonably optimistic about the Broncos, it is hard to ignore the fact that they are looking like they could very well follow in the footsteps of the team that started out 2-0 last year. The same people that are saying that there's no reason to worry because they are 3-1 are the same one's that said the same thing last year after a 2-0 start.

                              Even with the improved offense, they should be 2-2 at best. We don't know what would have happened if the refs had not missed the call on Winborn being offsides. The defense could have very well caused a turnover. But, this team is not as good as their record indicates as was the case last year when they started 2-0.

                              That being said, instead of lamenting about the ineptitude of the defense and the special teams, we might be better served by simply being happy that at least the offense has improved so much that they can focus on fixing the defense next year. This team is going to struggle to make good on Shanahan's claim that they will not miss the playoffs. They have a good chance of doing it because of their offense, but they will definitely not be serious contenders for the Super Bowl this year. This of course is assuming that they don't make any kind of a significant trade before the deadline that has a strong impact on the defense. It's too bad the defense didn't make any kind of improvement, because the offense is clearly ready to win now. What a shame.

                              The Broncos have always been more finesse than physical, but they were able to make it work. They still might make it work if they can get back to running the ball and controlling the clock.
                              My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                              You Mad Bro?
                              Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ravage!!! View Post
                                I never said our defense was.. and have been a constant complainer about how horrible our defense is. But lets get realistic. Just because the defense is bad, doesn't mean ALL is horrible, and the season is at an end, and we haven't improved at all! Thats absolutely ridiculous.

                                The Baltimore Ravens won a SB with defense. They have had a VERY good defense every since. How many AFC Championships have they been to since??? I'll even go a step further, how many playoff games have they won since that SB win, with their VERY good defense??

                                The Pittsburgh Steelers have always had a very good defense. How many AFC Championships have they been to in the last 10 years with that very good defense?

                                The Chicago Bears have had very good defenses for YEARS now.. they went to a SB, but couldn't go back to the playoffs. How many AFC Championships/playoff games have they won OTHER than that trip to the bowl? Who had the better defense in that SB against the COlts?

                                The Tampa Bay Bucs have always had a good defense...same question.

                                Jacksonville Jags??

                                Its not EASY to build a team that has both a good defense and a good offense. Right now we have a GOOD offense that is one key player from being a VERY good offense.

                                NO.. our defense is NOT good enough to win a championship. Its not even good enough to win a play-off game right now. But for ANYONE to sit here and tell me that the team hasn't improved because the defense isn't stellar, is just being ASININE! Its completely absurd, and completely and TOTALLY untrue. It has no merit, and is simply a "whoa is me" reaction to the team losing in KC.
                                you are putting words in my mouth.

                                you are implying that i said we did not improve at all.....we did improve.

                                Offensively. Defensively we have not improved, infact we regressed.

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