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Slow developing DEs in Denver

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  • #16
    yeah the denver way is they'll have 10+ sacks a year, then trade/let em go theory is always awesome. In Jarvis Moss highlight tape from Florida, he always looked weak. Compare the tapes with him and demarcus ware...and see the difference in how they looked in college.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Uglybass View Post
      Most all DE's are slow to develop. Exceptions have been Mario Williams and Jevon Kearse. Other than that I really can't name any other rookie DE's or even DT's that came in and made a huge impact their first or second year. I'll give Crowder and Moss some time before I throw them under the bus.

      Pretty much what I've been trying to point out. Good look at all the dominant DTs in the league right now too. You'll find much of the same. The only one to come in and be a monster was Kevin Williams, but hes the exception, not the rule.


      Originally posted by japfaff View Post
      Yes, But Moss cant even get a sniff of the field. Hell he was inactive for the first 2 games. Face it the guy has no talent. He was a bust pick, and the sooner we cut his ass the better off this team will be. The guy does nothing but take up a spot on the charter flight....

      No, Moss has plenty of talent, just lacks the ideal physical tools needed. He's relatively light and not very strong for an NFL DE, but thats why its going to take him some time. Once he develops a bit more strength and size, he'll be a fine component on this team.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BroncoDefense View Post
        I, like many of you, am concerned about how slowly Crowder and Moss seem to be coming along, so I thought I would look up how some of our past DEs progressed early in their career to gauge where they are at:

        Bert Berry: Drafted by Indy third round in 1997, played in 10 games rookie year, 16 games in years 2 and 3. Came to Denver at beginning of forth year and had two sacks, playing in 16 games starting none. His fifth year in league (second in Denver) he put up 6 sacks playing in 16 games starting none. His sixth year in the league (third in Denver) he finally started 16 game and has 11.5 sacks and was on his way.

        Reggie Hayward: Drafted third round by Denver in 2001, played in 6 games and had 2 sacks. Second year played in 9 games had 0 sacks. Third year played in 16 games and had 8.5 sacks (still only started two games). After this was a solid contributor.

        Trevor Pryce: Drafted first round by Denver in 1997 played in 8 games and had 2 sacks. In 1998 played in all 16 games and had 8.5 sacks. In 1999 played in 15 games and had 13 sacks and was on his way.

        Bryant McNeal was drafted in 2003 but was chronically injured and subsequently cut.

        Denver hasn't really drafted any other DEs in the last 10 years (Nick Eason is a DE/DT tweener).

        So, I think Shanahan has a history of slowly developing his DEs. Does this mean that Crowder and Moss will develop? I don't know, but we knew Moss was a project coming in and I think we probably should be a bit more patient, especially considering he was injured his rookie year.
        This is a good thread. Some people have a hard time understanding that it takes time for these guys to get used to the size and speed of the game.

        I do want to point out with Trevor Pryce that he was actually a defensive tackle his first two or 3 years in the league. So, when he had 8.5 sacks his second year from the dt position that was pretty impressive!

        Just had to throw in that blurb because I miss TP.
        sigpic
        Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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        • #19
          I've been watching Moss, and I'm starting to be disappointed. Its not that he doesnt have the sacks or the pressures, but its HOW he's been playing.

          It was either vs the Chiefs or Saints, I saw him get a free release to the QB, and then a RB stepped in his way and he completly stopped. The QB was right behind the RB. Moss had full momentum, he could have flown over the RB for a dramatic sack, or just bull rushed him into the QB....but he completely stopped and tried to go around him. It happened 2 plays in a row.

          He doesnt have the killer instinct.
          dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

          I tried to warn ya.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
            I've been watching Moss, and I'm starting to be disappointed. Its not that he doesnt have the sacks or the pressures, but its HOW he's been playing.

            It was either vs the Chiefs or Saints, I saw him get a free release to the QB, and then a RB stepped in his way and he completly stopped. The QB was right behind the RB. Moss had full momentum, he could have flown over the RB for a dramatic sack, or just bull rushed him into the QB....but he completely stopped and tried to go around him. It happened 2 plays in a row.

            He doesnt have the killer instinct.
            I do realize that this is your opinion but just how can you reach a conclusion on a player as to HOW he's been playing based off of two games playing in a limited role?
            " A kickers success is dependent upon his teams failure"...by SorryAss ChargerFans

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DiegoBRONCOFAN View Post
              I do realize that this is your opinion but just how can you reach a conclusion on a player as to HOW he's been playing based off of two games playing in a limited role?
              Cause if you're left 1 on 1 with a RB and you dont even get a pressure, you're not playing well.

              Perfect example, who remembers Mike Bell being thrown aside by Leonard Little to sack jake Plummer the first game of the season in '06? No hesitation on Leonard's part.
              dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

              I tried to warn ya.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                Cause if you're left 1 on 1 with a RB and you dont even get a pressure, you're not playing well.

                Perfect example, who remembers Mike Bell being thrown aside by Leonard Little to sack jake Plummer the first game of the season in '06? No hesitation on Leonard's part.

                I think that you're more referring to "experience" than "killer instinct" wouldn't you say?
                " A kickers success is dependent upon his teams failure"...by SorryAss ChargerFans

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                • #23
                  Interesting topic and I think that most people would agree that it takes DE’s longer to develop. This isn’t just a “Denver thing” either – it’s league-wide and it’s the nature of the position.

                  I agree that we must be patient and it is MUCH too early (still) to declare Moss a bust. It’s a good thing that coaches and GM’s aren’t as trigger happy as some fans. If instant success was the only measure then there would probably be only 2 DE’s from the 2007 draft class still playing in this league: Gaines Adams and LaMarr Woodley (and Woodley, of course, has been “converted” to an OLB as have some others).

                  Maybe the below information will provide something to this conversation. Of course, sacks seem to be the measuring stick for DE’s so that’s what’s hightlighted here.

                  ------------

                  Link

                  Number of DE’s taken in 2007 draft: 24

                  Number of 2007 drafted DE’s that have played in a game: 17

                  Total games played by these 17 DE’s: 238

                  Total sacks by these 17 DE’s: 41.5

                  Average number of games played: 14

                  Average number of sacks: 2.44

                  Average number of sacks per game played: 0.17


                  ------------

                  Just so you know: Jarvis Moss – 8 games played – 1 sack – 0.125 sack per game played.

                  I say: “Get him out there and let him learn.” I understand and agree with some of the reasons posted here why we haven’t done that with him yet, but that’s just my opinion.

                  The silver lining is that we have a couple of young, and purportedly talented DE’s, that are fresh, healthy, and most likely eager to get in there and contribute in this long war of atrition. Chances are that they will not only be USED, but eventually NEEDED.
                  Winter is Coming!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DiegoBRONCOFAN View Post
                    I think that you're more referring to "experience" than "killer instinct" wouldn't you say?
                    Lol of course not, if youre a de and you see a RB between you and the QB, you should bowl over that RB and get the easy sack.

                    College freshman D-lineman should know that, let alone a 1st round NFL draft pick
                    dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                    I tried to warn ya.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Return of Lava View Post
                      Lol of course not, if youre a de and you see a RB between you and the QB, you should bowl over that RB and get the easy sack.

                      College freshman D-lineman should know that, let alone a 1st round NFL draft pick
                      Well, in Moss' defense if it was in fact against the Chiefs...LJ probably outweighs him!
                      Not only that, but the attempted Mike Bell block was one of the worst that I've ever seen. I'm not sure you can use his blocking attempt as a way to measure all other future RB blocks.
                      " A kickers success is dependent upon his teams failure"...by SorryAss ChargerFans

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DiegoBRONCOFAN View Post
                        Well, in Moss' defense if it was in fact against the Chiefs...LJ probably outweighs him!
                        Not only that, but the attempted Mike Bell block was one of the worst that I've ever seen. I'm not sure you can use his blocking attempt as a way to measure all other future RB blocks.
                        Now that you mention that, it wasnt KC it was vs N.O.

                        The bottom line is he isnt playing strong enough. If you ever watch him, he gets pushed around way too easily to make a difference right now. I'm a Moss supporter, but he has to get stronger or play meaner.
                        dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                        I tried to warn ya.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          one of the reasons they can't get thrown into the fire is because we are trying to reach the playoffs. If the defense fails the entire team fails. I think later in the year if e have games under control we will give them some playing time

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