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  • Fat Joe
    replied
    Originally posted by xxxlibertine View Post
    Your resonse was well thought out and well written. Perhaps I AM too dismissive of Big Al's linebacking skills but on paper he doesn't reach the bar that the other linebackers mentioned in comparison set, both at the ILB position in general and specifically as a Bronco LB.

    He played only eight years as opposed to Junior Seau's 18, (and just resigned by N.E.), Lawrence Taylor's 13, Mike Singletary's 12 years, Gradishar's 10, Tom Jackson's 14, Meckleburg's 12 and Ray Lewis' 12 years. Al did NOT have the physical tools any of those guys had and his early exit was a result of a serious neck injury. His body simply could no longer stand up to the physical pounding. He wasn't that physically imposing although he was more than willing to give it his all. He was in fact the real spine in the defenses in which he played and he kept them focused. However, it was a finesse defense, not built for smashmouth.

    The other LBs mentioned here were game changers. They affected the way the opposing teams schemed and played them and still they made game changing plays on a regular basis, that's why half of them are already in the Hall of Fame. Al Wilson is not headed to Canton . . . In eight years Al accumulated a total of 580 tackles, 450 solo 130 assists. He had a modest 21.5 sacks and a measly five INTs. He scored 1 defensive TD.

    In the same eight year time frame, Lewis had 513 combined tackles, 28 sacks and 23 INTs and 2 defensive TDs. He has since added to these totals and now has 878 combined tackles, 31 sacks and 28 INTs. And he isn't done yet either it would appear . . .

    In Junior Seau's 18 year career, which he has just resumed, he has racked up 56.5 sacks and 18 INTs, three in his LAST campaign. I believe Junior will be in the Hall of Fame someday too.

    Lawrence Taylor amassed 132.5 sacks over the span of his 13 years in the league. Tommy Jackson had 13 sacks in his last four seasons. I don't think they kept a stat category for sacks before that so I don't know how many he had in his first ten years but it was a bunch. Tommy was a load. He scored 3 defensive TDs in his career as a Bronco. Gradishar snagged 20 INTs during his time here and turned 3 of them into TDs and Mecklenburg netted 79 sacks.

    As important as he was to the defenses he played on, he was merely adequate or a little better. But, he WAS the best of the lot during that time. The scheme they were working at the time was predicated on the old cliche that "speed kills" and it's motto was "bend don't break". Although the '05 defense achieved some success, it was as I contend, largely due to the scheme and coaching . . . it was a generic and fizzless imitation. Didn't they start shuffling DCs in and out the next season? Why was that?

    '05 still stands in my mind as Shannahan's finest beginning to end coaching performance. And Big Al still stands in my mind as an over rated over achiever.

    Al wasnt asked to do the same things those guys were. Seau was an OLB, so was LT. The only guy you can compare him to is Ray, and at the time Al hit his stride, he was just as effective as Ray. Our defense was constantly ranked in the top half and the top 10 in total defense when Al was running the middle. He was a different breed of MLB, he wasnt a thumper, although he could and would thump you (ask Tyrone Wheately), but he could go sideline to sideline faster then anyone. Ray is arguably the greatest MLB'er of all time, so to put him on that pedestal is yes, tough. But its like trying to compare Jake Plummer to Steve Young. Similar, but not quite the same.

    Originally posted by Zealander View Post
    Mike Shanahan has done great things here in Denver. However, I often find myself at qualms with my perspective on the man. On the one hand, in instance of this season you see him take a team hosting starting spots largely to rookies and young players.... and we hold the division. He has so many strengths as a coach, I don't feel the need to list them here.


    But a few things really irk me about Shanahan. How do you lose at home to the raiders in such a crucial time in our season? Our roster is vastly superior... it was bad coaching. We weren't prepared and it showed. After loses like those, I see something in his eyes. I feel like he has lost his energy. Many times I have seen a broken Mike Shanahan, with defeat written across his face. Maybe I am misreading him, maybe what I see is simply an aged coach with no less drive and football knowledge than he had ten years ago.

    Then he does something like take his team on the road and beats the Jets. The players all say, "Well... the coaching staff does a great job putting us in a position to win games." If that's what the players say, fine by me. Maybe it was just the personnel who overlooked and did not execute in face of the Oakland. He has the players confidence, Mike Shanahan is still our man.


    We were simply out executed in the Oakland game. Guys were in position, they just made the wrong reads (fullback fake half back toss to McFadden) or made poor tackling attempts (special teams), and alot of dropped passes, it makes life easy for other teams. People forget the Raiders actually do have talent (see: NY Jets @ Oakland, or SD @ Oakland) and can **** with you if your not ready. Thats two bad losses to two bad division rivals. We'll see tomorrow if the youth on this team woke up and smelled the aroma and is going to stomp out a team they should, but last week we werent out coached, we were out executed. We're young and inconsistent, these things will happen. Look at all the prominent perennial contenders in the league, you dont think they had their growing pains? C'mon. Get real.

    Originally posted by Thor View Post
    Mr. FatJoe,
    I'm sorry you took offense by my post, I was not replying to your post but strictly to the main thread " Is Broncos' coaching job the best in football?" Nothing I wrote was directed at you. I logged on, read the main thread and posted a reply, mine just happened to be posted right after yours.
    Again my post had nothing to do with yours. I'm sorry my remarks offended you so much and apologize for that.


    Its all good bro, but thats what irks me about this place. No one takes the time to read through a thread, just first post, post reply, done. Hence why there is just no consistency or good indepth intelligent conversations. Its all good bro, I wasnt trying to be a ****** to you, but it just speaks to whats the norm on this forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • iowabronco24
    replied
    I have always been a huge shanny fan, and this year has been no different. I don't see how you could complain about the coaching this year (at least the offense, defense is debatable at times). Yes it pisses me off when we lose to inferior teams like the raiders and the chiefs..but how were those losses Shanny's fault? Shanny isn't throwing pics and fumbling the ball. I am not sure, but I don't think we have lost when we win the turnover battle? Either way I know that when we haven't turned the ball over, we win A LOT more than we lose.

    Shannahan is a great coach, and unfortunately, I think some of you won't realize this until after he's gone. We as broncos fans are spoiled in a sense because we have had the luxury of watching one of the most consistent football teams (in the sense of being in contention for at least the playoffs every year) and you don't think Shanny deserves any credit for that?

    For those of you that want Shanny gone, be careful what you wish for. Look at Michigan for instance. Their fans got tired of winning 9 or 10 games every year, ran the coach outta town and what do you know...first losing season in 30 some years. Just a thought..

    Throwing your coach under the bus isn't always the best option. We have a great coach is Mike Shannahan, lets keep it that way!

    Leave a comment:


  • Thor
    replied
    A mistake

    Mr. FatJoe,
    I'm sorry you took offense by my post, I was not replying to your post but strictly to the main thread " Is Broncos' coaching job the best in football?" Nothing I wrote was directed at you. I logged on, read the main thread and posted a reply, mine just happened to be posted right after yours.
    Again my post had nothing to do with yours. I'm sorry my remarks offended you so much and apologize for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zealander
    replied
    Mike Shanahan has done great things here in Denver. However, I often find myself at qualms with my perspective on the man. On the one hand, in instance of this season you see him take a team hosting starting spots largely to rookies and young players.... and we hold the division. He has so many strengths as a coach, I don't feel the need to list them here.


    But a few things really irk me about Shanahan. How do you lose at home to the raiders in such a crucial time in our season? Our roster is vastly superior... it was bad coaching. We weren't prepared and it showed. After loses like those, I see something in his eyes. I feel like he has lost his energy. Many times I have seen a broken Mike Shanahan, with defeat written across his face. Maybe I am misreading him, maybe what I see is simply an aged coach with no less drive and football knowledge than he had ten years ago.

    Then he does something like take his team on the road and beats the Jets. The players all say, "Well... the coaching staff does a great job putting us in a position to win games." If that's what the players say, fine by me. Maybe it was just the personnel who overlooked and did not execute in face of the Oakland. He has the players confidence, Mike Shanahan is still our man.

    Leave a comment:


  • LordTrychon
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Joe View Post
    Well thats why I clarified a few posts ago that I'll say this year is a better coaching job where as 2005 was a better job being the GM. Good coaching, obviously Jake was a prime example of the outstanding coaching we had/have here.


    Yes, I do hate it here. Fortunately for the rest of the board I have no where else to go.
    I hear the Chargers forums are accepting applications...


    Oh wait... No they aren't.


    Anyway... Clady, Royal, Larsen, Winborn, Hillis... those are all GM from Shanny this year... Not horrible either. Oh... Weigmann...

    Leave a comment:


  • xxxlibertine
    replied
    Your resonse was well thought out and well written. Perhaps I AM too dismissive of Big Al's linebacking skills but on paper he doesn't reach the bar that the other linebackers mentioned in comparison set, both at the ILB position in general and specifically as a Bronco LB.

    He played only eight years as opposed to Junior Seau's 18, (and just resigned by N.E.), Lawrence Taylor's 13, Mike Singletary's 12 years, Gradishar's 10, Tom Jackson's 14, Meckleburg's 12 and Ray Lewis' 12 years. Al did NOT have the physical tools any of those guys had and his early exit was a result of a serious neck injury. His body simply could no longer stand up to the physical pounding. He wasn't that physically imposing although he was more than willing to give it his all. He was in fact the real spine in the defenses in which he played and he kept them focused. However, it was a finesse defense, not built for smashmouth.

    The other LBs mentioned here were game changers. They affected the way the opposing teams schemed and played them and still they made game changing plays on a regular basis, that's why half of them are already in the Hall of Fame. Al Wilson is not headed to Canton . . . In eight years Al accumulated a total of 580 tackles, 450 solo 130 assists. He had a modest 21.5 sacks and a measly five INTs. He scored 1 defensive TD.

    In the same eight year time frame, Lewis had 513 combined tackles, 28 sacks and 23 INTs and 2 defensive TDs. He has since added to these totals and now has 878 combined tackles, 31 sacks and 28 INTs. And he isn't done yet either it would appear . . .

    In Junior Seau's 18 year career, which he has just resumed, he has racked up 56.5 sacks and 18 INTs, three in his LAST campaign. I believe Junior will be in the Hall of Fame someday too.

    Lawrence Taylor amassed 132.5 sacks over the span of his 13 years in the league. Tommy Jackson had 13 sacks in his last four seasons. I don't think they kept a stat category for sacks before that so I don't know how many he had in his first ten years but it was a bunch. Tommy was a load. He scored 3 defensive TDs in his career as a Bronco. Gradishar snagged 20 INTs during his time here and turned 3 of them into TDs and Mecklenburg netted 79 sacks.

    As important as he was to the defenses he played on, he was merely adequate or a little better. But, he WAS the best of the lot during that time. The scheme they were working at the time was predicated on the old cliche that "speed kills" and it's motto was "bend don't break". Although the '05 defense achieved some success, it was as I contend, largely due to the scheme and coaching . . . it was a generic and fizzless imitation. Didn't they start shuffling DCs in and out the next season? Why was that?

    '05 still stands in my mind as Shannahan's finest beginning to end coaching performance. And Big Al still stands in my mind as an over rated over achiever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Joe
    replied
    Originally posted by LordTrychon View Post
    Well, when you make TOO good of an argument, it's hard to disagree.

    The defense we had, and the linebackers especially with Al in the middle was definitely better than what we have now. It'd be stupid to disagree.

    The team we had was stronger on defense and more experienced and had more time together as an offense. Now we have a more explosive younger offense that isn't always gelled... and a defense that isn't nearly as good.

    So like you said... he did a great job putting together that team... but was it that hard to coach?

    Is taking a decimated team to this record a better job of coaching? I think you can argue either way.

    I'd argue that Shanny the GM did a hell of a job finding us the rookies that he's now coaching well...

    Anyway...

    Yeah... I'm sorry you hate it here. Good post anyway. :thumb:



    Well thats why I clarified a few posts ago that I'll say this year is a better coaching job where as 2005 was a better job being the GM. Good coaching, obviously Jake was a prime example of the outstanding coaching we had/have here.


    Yes, I do hate it here. Fortunately for the rest of the board I have no where else to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • LordTrychon
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Joe View Post
    You know why I hate this forum? Because you rarely get intelligent conversations. I take the time to type all that **** out, and this is the response it gets. Its like smart, well-thought out, fact driven posts are this forums kryptonite. I think if I just say things like "CUTL3R PWNZJo0!!!1" and "FIRE SHANNAHAN HE SUXORS to teh MAX!!!!" I'll get someone to engage in discussion.
    Well, when you make TOO good of an argument, it's hard to disagree.

    The defense we had, and the linebackers especially with Al in the middle was definitely better than what we have now. It'd be stupid to disagree.

    The team we had was stronger on defense and more experienced and had more time together as an offense. Now we have a more explosive younger offense that isn't always gelled... and a defense that isn't nearly as good.

    So like you said... he did a great job putting together that team... but was it that hard to coach?

    Is taking a decimated team to this record a better job of coaching? I think you can argue either way.

    I'd argue that Shanny the GM did a hell of a job finding us the rookies that he's now coaching well...

    Anyway...

    Yeah... I'm sorry you hate it here. Good post anyway. :thumb:

    Leave a comment:


  • CoryWinget81
    replied
    Anyone that thinks Shanny needs to be fired...
    ...see the sig.

    That being said, I could see how Denver is one of the best coaching jobs. We have the best fans, a very nice facility, a big enough market to get recognition, but small enough where it doesnt overwhelm.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Joe
    replied
    Originally posted by Thor View Post
    YES!!!!!!!! I would also like to say I approve of the job Norv Turner has done with the Chargers this year.
    You know why I hate this forum? Because you rarely get intelligent conversations. I take the time to type all that **** out, and this is the response it gets. Its like smart, well-thought out, fact driven posts are this forums kryptonite. I think if I just say things like "CUTL3R PWNZJo0!!!1" and "FIRE SHANNAHAN HE SUXORS to teh MAX!!!!" I'll get someone to engage in discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thor
    replied
    YES!!!!!!!! I would also like to say I approve of the job Norv Turner has done with the Chargers this year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Joe
    replied
    Originally posted by TheRealMoose View Post
    I don't know if I agree about '05 being his best coaching job. Champ and DJ on the injured list for half of this season, along with 12 guys hitting IR. Fourth string running back starting for us now. Scheffler, Royal, Marshall all missed time. And the defense is horrid. Yet we're 2.5 games up on the division and can clinch with two wins.

    '05 was great, but... '08 is better, IMO.

    I can agree with that, maybe I should have that was his best GM job? By that I mean the impact players we drafted in 05 (read: D Wil) and bringing in all the Browns Dlineman in which he was relentlessly bashed for in the media, by the fans, and was outright questioned by other personel in the league, all it did was turn into a dominant defense. So yes, your right about this being his best coaching job, I'll call that his best offseason shopping spree.

    Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post
    Hey can I save this quote as part of my sig!!!

    It really hits home sand sums everything up that happens on here.

    You absolutely can. :salute!:

    Originally posted by Artamentous View Post
    ROFL You can sure tell the people who DIDNT read the link.

    It says nothing about how good a coach Shanny is, it says what a GREAT organization it is to be a coach of.


    Its a discussion chief, we spawned it from best places to coach to Shannys best coaching job. Im sure you can connect the dots and follow the logic.

    Originally posted by xxxlibertine View Post
    The defense that year was more successful LARGELY because of Denver's offensive success, which in turn was largely predicated on play action roll outs, misdirection, smoke and mirrors (coaching). Al Wilson was even being favorably compared with Lewis as an "elite" MLB. lol!


    Al was widely considered one of if not the most underrated defender in the NFL for a long time. Ask Adam Schein who praised Al (not undeservingly) to no end in 04, 05, and 06. Al was an outstanding LB'er and was top 3 with Urlacher and Lewis during his tenure here. Secondly, the defense that year benefited from the offense like any team does. The offense didnt turn the ball over, but they certainly did their part getting 36 takeaways. So at the end of the day, you could credit the defense with the offenses success giving them a total of 20 extra drives on the year.


    Al was a warrior, I'll give him that, but he was no Tommy Jackson, Randy Gradishar OR Karl Mecklenburg. Sorry . . . But, he WAS adequate, he did make the defense BETTER, but frankly they were put in a lot of good situations by the offense and special teams and were largely comprised of smoke and mirrors too. They SHRIVELED, as did the offense, in the face of Pittsburg.

    Hey may not have been those guys, thats fine, but the boy could play and was far better then "adequate". I dont know why your trying to discredit and down play Al so much but your not doing a good job at it. Your crediting the ST's for 2005...not even close dude. 0 TDs on punts or kick returns and they only averaged 8.5 a return on punts and 20.7 on kickoffs. Nothing spectacular there. They ran into a buzzsaw in the Steelers. The Steelers were an almost identical team to the one who went 15-1 and a year before, so yo do the math. They were extremely talented and extremely hot at the time. Their offense came in ready for the heavy blitzing we were gonna bring and they snuffed our run game. When that happend, and we all know this, the game went on Jakes shoulders and the PA boots and rollouts failed. Jake turned the ball over 5 times, not Mikes fault, the guys couldnt execute. It is what it is but your all over the place and all wrong on this.



    The LBs who have been playing the past month are better than the 05 squad as a unit and they're just "back ups". . . The only place where Denver's defense is weaker now than it was in 05 is at the safety positions. But I think they are beginning to stabilize there too if the jets game is indicative of a trend, Fox's mea culpa playing pass to the wrong side of the field on a running play not withstanding.

    Denvers defense in 2005 with those LB'ers (who were the strength of that defense) - 258 points allowed.

    Denvers defense this year - 319 points allowed and counting, so its pretty safe to say these LB'ers are not on the same level as Ian, DJ, and Al were that year.



    To me, this has not been a particularly good coaching job to date. They were already ranked in the bottom third in many defensive categories by the time they lost their fourth outing in K.C. This was LARGELY because they were still EXPERIMENTING! They could not make up their minds if they were going to play a 4-3 front or a 3-4 front! THIS was something they should have aleady been committed to before the start of the regular season.


    If this year doesnt qualify as a good coaching job to you then I have to question the validity of your opinion as a whole. Im not sure what your getting at but again, your not doing a very good job.



    They were FORCED by INJURIES to take the 4-3 option and once THAT got decided the defense began to improve. I think they are going to come out like a swarm of friggin' hornets come Sunday. I really DO. I think Denver's defense is going to come out and put some wood to the Chefs because 1) They were HUMILIATED by LJ last outing and they do not intend to allow him to do so again, not to THEM, because, 2) There is real chemistry brewing amongst the current squad of players who DO NOT WANT to be relegated to sitting on the bench again. 3) Just between you and me, Larsen will be starting at MLB, sshhh . . . don't let that get out.

    Exhibit B would be the Oakland fiasco two weeks ago. The deficiencies in strategy, game planning, motivation and discipline were all directly attributable to the entire coaching staff, top to bottom, including Mike Shannahan. I don't think they will make any more MAJOR mistakes the remainder of the season, but frankly, I have more faith in the PLAYERS this year, than I do the coaching staff, although I have not and will not become a Shanny basher . . . at least not yet.

    I want ORANGE CRUSH baby! Not just some fizzless imitation! :salute!:



    I can agree with this part of your post, I think the defense is coming around and we have some solid players and they'll be much more prepared this time around. Last time LJ had 198 yards, 100 of which came on 2 or 3 carries if I recall. Thats all fine and well, but I cant imagine them being any worse with DJ back in the lineup. Webster...well, I like Nate so Im biased but Larsen was killin it at MLB. I just think your waaaaay off with most of your previous points.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheRealMoose
    replied
    Originally posted by xX-Bronco-Xx View Post


    Will you teach me to football?
    No, but he'll probably teach you "2 football." He's mad at me, so he won't teach me "2 football." Lucky.

    Leave a comment:


  • xX-Bronco-Xx
    replied
    Originally posted by broncofanatik View Post
    Am I surprised you posted this? Not really. Learn2 football.


    Will you teach me to football?

    Leave a comment:


  • xxxlibertine
    replied
    The defense that year was more successful LARGELY because of Denver's offensive success, which in turn was largely predicated on play action roll outs, misdirection, smoke and mirrors (coaching). Al Wilson was even being favorably compared with Lewis as an "elite" MLB. lol!

    Al was a warrior, I'll give him that, but he was no Tommy Jackson, Randy Gradishar OR Karl Mecklenburg. Sorry . . . But, he WAS adequate, he did make the defense BETTER, but frankly they were put in a lot of good situations by the offense and special teams and were largely comprised of smoke and mirrors too. They SHRIVELED, as did the offense, in the face of Pittsburg.

    The LBs who have been playing the past month are better than the 05 squad as a unit and they're just "back ups". . . The only place where Denver's defense is weaker now than it was in 05 is at the safety positions. But I think they are beginning to stabilize there too if the jets game is indicative of a trend, Fox's mea culpa playing pass to the wrong side of the field on a running play not withstanding.

    To me, this has not been a particularly good coaching job to date. They were already ranked in the bottom third in many defensive categories by the time they lost their fourth outing in K.C. This was LARGELY because they were still EXPERIMENTING! They could not make up their minds if they were going to play a 4-3 front or a 3-4 front! THIS was something they should have aleady been committed to before the start of the regular season.

    They were FORCED by INJURIES to take the 4-3 option and once THAT got decided the defense began to improve. I think they are going to come out like a swarm of friggin' hornets come Sunday. I really DO. I think Denver's defense is going to come out and put some wood to the Chefs because 1) They were HUMILIATED by LJ last outing and they do not intend to allow him to do so again, not to THEM, because, 2) There is real chemistry brewing amongst the current squad of players who DO NOT WANT to be relegated to sitting on the bench again. 3) Just between you and me, Larsen will be starting at MLB, sshhh . . . don't let that get out.

    Exhibit B would be the Oakland fiasco two weeks ago. The deficiencies in strategy, game planning, motivation and discipline were all directly attributable to the entire coaching staff, top to bottom, including Mike Shannahan. I don't think they will make any more MAJOR mistakes the remainder of the season, but frankly, I have more faith in the PLAYERS this year, than I do the coaching staff, although I have not and will not become a Shanny basher . . . at least not yet.

    I want ORANGE CRUSH baby! Not just some fizzless imitation! :salute!:

    Leave a comment:

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