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  • Pass Rush > Champ argument? What a joke

    Let's get this straight; the Defensive line will NOT change this season regardless of how hard you cry on these boards. Having Champ bailey return to the team as a dominant player was and still is a likely possibility.

    Would Champ have made a difference in that game against Carolina?! DEFINITELY. There is no guarantee shutdown on steve smith, but it's much more realistic than having a dominant Dline all of a sudden.

    If fans have noticed anything about Champ, you would realize by now that he shuts down elite receivers almost all the time. Champ had the speed to match Smith and the size and instincts to keep him in check.

    Also, with Champ being the dominant tackler and run support that he is, we may not have had to play 4-4 or shove a safety 30 yards deep. Bailey can handle top QBs, Delhomme would've been terrified to try to throw at Champ all game. an interception could've changed the momentum of the game early on.

    Lastly, trading champ will never guarantee you any type of dominant Dline or legitimate #1RB. You would be hoping that a Champ trade would give you that in return; but it's no guarantee. Champ is a once in a generation player; you don't trade someone that is crazy good in hopes of a good dline when it can be built through the draft...

    You guys are welcome to argue, but champ would've made a real difference in that game and other games for years to come.

  • #2
    I couldn't agree more. Not to mention that trading Champ wouldn't probably get much in return. Teams would look at him as being "on the decline." We know Champ plays well and IMO has at least 3 more years of good play ahead of him.

    Our D line honestly is just too small. I thought at the beginning of the season that we'd see improvement from Doom and we have but I just don't see much of a pass rush from anyone else.

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    • #3
      not even close. Look at San Diegos secondary without a great pass rusher like merriman. Without a good pass rush, a corner cant be great. A pass rush is those most important thing on a defense

      Originally posted by AyanBronco View Post
      Let's get this straight; the Defensive line will NOT change this season regardless of how hard you cry on these boards. Having Champ bailey return to the team as a dominant player was and still is a likely possibility.

      Would Champ have made a difference in that game against Carolina?! DEFINITELY. There is no guarantee shutdown on steve smith, but it's much more realistic than having a dominant Dline all of a sudden.

      If fans have noticed anything about Champ, you would realize by now that he shuts down elite receivers almost all the time. Champ had the speed to match Smith and the size and instincts to keep him in check.

      Also, with Champ being the dominant tackler and run support that he is, we may not have had to play 4-4 or shove a safety 30 yards deep. Bailey can handle top QBs, Delhomme would've been terrified to try to throw at Champ all game. an interception could've changed the momentum of the game early on.

      Lastly, trading champ will never guarantee you any type of dominant Dline or legitimate #1RB. You would be hoping that a Champ trade would give you that in return; but it's no guarantee. Champ is a once in a generation player; you don't trade someone that is crazy good in hopes of a good dline when it can be built through the draft...

      You guys are welcome to argue, but champ would've made a real difference in that game and other games for years to come.

      Comment


      • #4
        He's referring to our D line, which will need definite re-vamping in the offseason.

        Champ has proven that even with an inadequate pass rush, he still has the speed and the mechanics to go up with the greatest receivers in the league currently. We're lucky to have at least had his help for a part of the season this year. When he returns, I know he is going to be hungry for the football. Before Champ went out with a groin injury this year, he played in 7 games, and QB's have only thrown to him about 13 times, with three of those passes being deflections and one of them being an interception. He also had a forced fumble this year.

        The best player to compare to the impact that Champ has when he's on the field is Devin Hester. He makes kickers think that he's going to return for big yardage, whether he does or not. Kickers therefore usually try to kick away from him and the special teams game is won by the Bears. Champ has the same, if not better of an impact. When he's on the field, his area is shut down. QB's usually only throw that way in emergency and avoid him at all cost.

        But yes AyanBronco, I don't expect our pass rush to improve more than it has all season because of the size of our D line. However, if and when our guys start playing with some heart, maybe we'll see it, but for now we can only hope and pray that Champ will return soon to give some leadership and confidence to our defense.:salute!:

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        • #5
          i agree!! When Champ returns he will revamp our defense as much as we could expect this year.... The pass rush will not change, it not like we can get any elite d-line or d-end players right now so idk why people continue to B**** about it.. Champ won't be traded which is wonderful by me because when you trade someone you don't know what you'll be getting in return but with champ bailey on the field you ALWAYS know what you're gunna get! My hope is that after he can't cover elite receivers anymore after 3 years or so, we sign him to a 3 year contract to play safety because he'd definately shutdown even the best TE's in the league and he's GREAT in run support. Champ needs to retire a DENVER BRONCO!!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Banme View Post
            not even close. Look at San Diegos secondary without a great pass rusher like merriman. Without a good pass rush, a corner cant be great. A pass rush is those most important thing on a defense
            Champ bailey shuts down number one receivers with his name alone. When you have a player with that much influence over the other teams offensive scheme, it absolutely has more impact than pass rush. Good players like Merriman have bad days, but elite players like Champ Bailey don't ever get a chance at one. When Champ Bailey gets burnt, the other team sighs with relief because they know they got lucky, but they NEVER press their luck.
            Last edited by TheComeBackKid; 12-17-2008, 08:26 AM. Reason: Spelling

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            • #7
              I think you are all putting WAY too much stock into what Champ brings to the field. Yes he is an elite corner and plays much of the top tier of WRs very well. However, having a pass rush allows EVERY corner on the field to be much more aggressive and raises their level of play. I would MUCH rather have a dominant pass rush than ONE elite corner.
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Champ

                Champ is our defense enough said

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AyanBronco View Post
                  Let's get this straight; the Defensive line will NOT change this season regardless of how hard you cry on these boards. Having Champ bailey return to the team as a dominant player was and still is a likely possibility.

                  Would Champ have made a difference in that game against Carolina?! DEFINITELY. There is no guarantee shutdown on steve smith, but it's much more realistic than having a dominant Dline all of a sudden.

                  If fans have noticed anything about Champ, you would realize by now that he shuts down elite receivers almost all the time. Champ had the speed to match Smith and the size and instincts to keep him in check.

                  Also, with Champ being the dominant tackler and run support that he is, we may not have had to play 4-4 or shove a safety 30 yards deep. Bailey can handle top QBs, Delhomme would've been terrified to try to throw at Champ all game. an interception could've changed the momentum of the game early on.

                  Lastly, trading champ will never guarantee you any type of dominant Dline or legitimate #1RB. You would be hoping that a Champ trade would give you that in return; but it's no guarantee. Champ is a once in a generation player; you don't trade someone that is crazy good in hopes of a good dline when it can be built through the draft...

                  You guys are welcome to argue, but champ would've made a real difference in that game and other games for years to come.
                  You continue to insult people and your argument continues to not hold water. I don't know why you felt the need to start a new thread because you're basically saying the same thing you said in the other one.

                  How many interceptions did Champ have last year? How many did he have before he got injured this year? Not very many in either case. The one interception I can remember from this year, might have very well been a blown call by the refs, at the very least it was very questionable.

                  How has the pass defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is shutting down one side of the field? Offenses are still tearing up the defense on the other 2/3 of the field.

                  How has the run defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is one of the best tacklers on the team? What good does that do when teams are still running all over the rest of the defense?

                  Where is your proof that Champ would have shut down Steve Smith? Where is your proof that the Panthers would not have made sure to match Smith up with another defender as much as possible? You have none. You only have speculation and insults to support your theory that Champ would have made a difference.

                  With or without Champ, what would have made a difference is a pass rush. That's a historically proven fact. Good pass rushing leads to good things for the defense. Other teams win games and even win championships without having the best corner in the game on their team. Many of them can do it because they have a strong defense, pass defense and run defense. The Broncos don't have that defense.

                  Like I said before, I don't advocate trading Champ, but I wouldn't complain if they did, if it meant getting a pass rush or a legitimate starting running back. I prefer that they get both and keep Champ, but I'll take either one in exchange for Champ.
                  My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                  You Mad Bro?
                  Don’t Be A Mean Girl
                  Hell No!!! To the Texans Quarterback!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is no doubt that Champ is a great player. But the fact of the matter remains is that we are the 31st ranked D with him in the lineup, and we were like 25th without him in there. With our zero pass rush QB's can just sit back there and wait for someone to get open. Would Champ have made a difference in the Carolina game, yeah. But we still would have gotten smashed. I have been saying this for 2 years now. Trade Champ, he is more of a hinderence to the team (with his high salery, and his 4-8 missed games per year) than a benifit. Spending big money on a Cb is just a waste of money. CUt or trade him and invest your savings into someone that isnt so easy to just aviod. A solid Dlineman is far better than a HOF type CB. The only person on this D that should stay is DJ, everyone else is either garbage or just to damn overpriced for what you get
                    Thanx Blondie79 for the sweet Sig....Love it and I will rock it with pridesigpic

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                      You continue to insult people and your argument continues to not hold water. I don't know why you felt the need to start a new thread because you're basically saying the same thing you said in the other one.

                      How many interceptions did Champ have last year? How many did he have before he got injured this year? Not very many in either case. The one interception I can remember from this year, might have very well been a blown call by the refs, at the very least it was very questionable.

                      How has the pass defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is shutting down one side of the field? Offenses are still tearing up the defense on the other 2/3 of the field.

                      How has the run defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is one of the best tacklers on the team? What good does that do when teams are still running all over the rest of the defense?

                      Where is your proof that Champ would have shut down Steve Smith? Where is your proof that the Panthers would not have made sure to match Smith up with another defender as much as possible? You have none. You only have speculation and insults to support your theory that Champ would have made a difference.

                      With or without Champ, what would have made a difference is a pass rush. That's a historically proven fact. Good pass rushing leads to good things for the defense. Other teams win games and even win championships without having the best corner in the game on their team. Many of them can do it because they have a strong defense, pass defense and run defense. The Broncos don't have that defense.

                      Like I said before, I don't advocate trading Champ, but I wouldn't complain if they did, if it meant getting a pass rush or a legitimate starting running back. I prefer that they get both and keep Champ, but I'll take either one in exchange for Champ.
                      Good post.

                      First let me say I love Champ, I've loved him since the day he became a part of this team. He is a great player, maybe one of the best to ever play his position. He does shut down 1/3 of the field, and you got to love that. And I DON'T want to see him traded.

                      However, the fact is right now our defense is just plain bad with or without him. I just hope we can hit free agency hard this off season and nab us a couple of solid d-linemen to pair with Champ, Dre, and Bell.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                        You continue to insult people and your argument continues to not hold water. I don't know why you felt the need to start a new thread because you're basically saying the same thing you said in the other one.

                        How many interceptions did Champ have last year? How many did he have before he got injured this year? Not very many in either case. The one interception I can remember from this year, might have very well been a blown call by the refs, at the very least it was very questionable.

                        How has the pass defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is shutting down one side of the field? Offenses are still tearing up the defense on the other 2/3 of the field.

                        How has the run defense been with or without Champ? Very bad to horrid. So what if Champ is one of the best tacklers on the team? What good does that do when teams are still running all over the rest of the defense?

                        Where is your proof that Champ would have shut down Steve Smith? Where is your proof that the Panthers would not have made sure to match Smith up with another defender as much as possible? You have none. You only have speculation and insults to support your theory that Champ would have made a difference.

                        With or without Champ, what would have made a difference is a pass rush. That's a historically proven fact. Good pass rushing leads to good things for the defense. Other teams win games and even win championships without having the best corner in the game on their team. Many of them can do it because they have a strong defense, pass defense and run defense. The Broncos don't have that defense.

                        Like I said before, I don't advocate trading Champ, but I wouldn't complain if they did, if it meant getting a pass rush or a legitimate starting running back. I prefer that they get both and keep Champ, but I'll take either one in exchange for Champ.
                        As much as you've written in response to my post, not much of it has any particular relevance. My post wasn't geared to insult people, it was meant to point out the notion of trading champ is SILLY. period.

                        Do I have to sit here and explain to you why Champ Bailey has seen a decline in interceptions the last two years?! The first 2-3 years as a bronco, Champ was thrown to MUCH more. ANd as everyone knows, when you test champ too often, you get destroyed.

                        I never declared or made any guarantee that Champ would shut down Steve Smith; read the post, I said it would be highly likely. This is where your argument completely fails.

                        Whether our run/pass defense is bad or not, Champ Bailey is a superior player to any of the other CBs we have. How the hell would the return of a player like Champ be a detriment to our team?

                        Lastly, your idea of trading Champ for a Dline/Running back is just plain stupid; sorry to be honest but that's my opinion. We had great RBs, they all got injured; it'd be nice to see people stop crying over this. Name a RB that will be amazing in the bronco system for years to come; it's just no guarantee. The fact is, Champ is amazing as a bronco and always will be.

                        Oh, By the way, shutdown corner more literally implies that you prevent the receiver from being productive; not produce more interceptions. INTs will come with a pass rush, but trading Champ is nonsense.
                        Last edited by AyanBronco; 12-18-2008, 01:53 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Banme View Post
                          not even close. Look at San Diegos secondary without a great pass rusher like merriman. Without a good pass rush, a corner cant be great. A pass rush is those most important thing on a defense
                          Clearly, you know nothing about the broncos. Champ bailey is spectacular even without a pass rush. Yes, the rest of the defense is still horrible, but Champ has always played at a high level.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by japfaff View Post
                            There is no doubt that Champ is a great player. But the fact of the matter remains is that we are the 31st ranked D with him in the lineup, and we were like 25th without him in there. With our zero pass rush QB's can just sit back there and wait for someone to get open. Would Champ have made a difference in the Carolina game, yeah. But we still would have gotten smashed. I have been saying this for 2 years now. Trade Champ, he is more of a hinderence to the team (with his high salery, and his 4-8 missed games per year) than a benifit. Spending big money on a Cb is just a waste of money. CUt or trade him and invest your savings into someone that isnt so easy to just aviod. A solid Dlineman is far better than a HOF type CB. The only person on this D that should stay is DJ, everyone else is either garbage or just to damn overpriced for what you get
                            Trade champ and get WHAT. How would you ever be sure that we would get something that will be much better than Champ? I agree with the poster. To make a statement in claiming that we would be smashed if Champ were in the game is pure ignorance.

                            If you consider Steve Smith getting shut down, Carolina would essentially have no offense, and that means our offense would be on field more often.

                            I'm glad you don't run the broncos, we would have nothing to cheer for. Yeah, ok , get rid of all our good players and hope for something better. Your half a brain argument won't work here buddy.

                            Champ>You that's for sure

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cammina View Post
                              Trade champ and get WHAT. How would you ever be sure that we would get something that will be much better than Champ? I agree with the poster. To make a statement in claiming that we would be smashed if Champ were in the game is pure ignorance.

                              If you consider Steve Smith getting shut down, Carolina would essentially have no offense, and that means our offense would be on field more often.

                              I'm glad you don't run the broncos, we would have nothing to cheer for. Yeah, ok , get rid of all our good players and hope for something better. Your half a brain argument won't work here buddy.

                              Champ>You that's for sure
                              See you are assuming that Smith would be shut down. Smith is a really tough cover for anyone in this league. Espically Big corners. But say that he does shut down Smith, then they would have just went to Muss on the other side... Besides I think either way Champ would have covered Muss, his size would have just eaten up a non physical corner like Bly. As for our offense seeing the field more.... You think that is a good thing? After our fist two posessions... How many yards did we get the rest of the game? How many points did we score? Face it we were out classed in every way by a team that has more talent on both sides of the ball, is playing better, and went into the game with a far better game plan. The only reason that we lost by only 20 was cause they took thier foot off the pedal in the third when the game was over. Face it Champ wouldnt have made the difference Sunday, hell Jesus Christ wouldnt have been able to pull that one out. As for what to get in return for Champ... Well the sad state is that you wouldnt get equal value for him. I would be happy with a second maybe a third for him. The value of getting rid of him is that we get out from his huge contract and get a litttle latitude to make a more and get some talent in our front 7. But if it is such a bad idea to trade him..... How do you explain that our D is better without him in the lineup?? Champ is old and breaking down, and at this point is only good for 8-12 games a year. Trade or Cut him is the best thing for the team
                              Thanx Blondie79 for the sweet Sig....Love it and I will rock it with pridesigpic

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