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  • #31
    Originally posted by joehyk View Post
    The OP makes the foolish assumption that 1st round draft picks = talent.
    You made a foolish statement. You should have read the thread before posting the statement above!


    My comment: "Try reading the Slowik thread. Furthermore, the assumption was never made that 1st round draft ='s success. Just look at Jarvis Moss. " Is right there on the first page.

    and: "By no means am I comparing Denver to Pittsburgh. So we will end that idea right there. I was simply highlighting the fact that the league's best D's dont break the bank on multiple 1st rounders, Baltimore included. "

    Right here on the second page.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue719 View Post
      Sorry, Joe, but I don't agree. We lived by the blitz and got no pressure when we weren't blitzing. Pittsburgh always saw our blitz coming and it was ineffective.
      That 2005 team blitzed all season. It is the reason we beat the Patriots in the playoffs that year. It created turnovers. Coyer's defenses were always very good in the turnover ratio. As of now Denver has 13 takeaways on the season. The record low (since they have tracked the stat) is 12

      Coyer's defense was exposed because Pittsburgh had an answer for every blitz. They were the first team to pick them up. He was great at disguising them but Ben and Company figured them out. The offense takes fault there too because they abandoned the run too early IMHO.

      Also, remember that guy Ray Rhoades? He was here. He had the talent that Coyer had that took to the AFC CG. Everybody faults us Slowik detractors by saying he doesn't have the talent Coyer did. Well Rhoades did. He didn't do squat!

      Seattle had issues on Defense and they took Rhoades soon after we fired him. They were in the SB that year! That would be another case turn around (maybe not statistically-I will look it up and post) but they played themselves into a Super Bowl.

      This team had a 3 game lead cut to one. All they had to do was beat OAK, or Buffalo to terrible offensive teams. Slowik cannot even play us into the Playoffs!

      For the people that want to keep him answer this: Why would you keep a guy who abandon what is working with the talent he has? He applied pressure with great success against Buffalo. It helped us build a 13-0 lead. No sooner than he abandoned it they had 6 CONSECUTIVE scoring drives! Keep in mind this is week 16 when all the marbles were on the table! This isn't week 2 when you can chalk it up to being a long season and they will get better. In fact we always hear that they are going to look at the tape and improve on things. We have not seen one single improvement defensively.

      Comment


      • #33
        Whether Slowik stays or goes, the Broncos need more talent on defense. I hope Slowik goes.
        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
        You Mad Bro?
        Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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        • #34
          First off, I believe that when it comes to defensive football, stats can be VERY misleading. Often, when a team has a terrible offense, this can reflect on the defense since they are frequently put in bad spots and next thing you know get down 3 quick scores due to the offense turning the ball over. Then, the opposition just pounds the ball for 3 quarters and the stats end up saying you can't stop the run.

          By no means am I saying that our defense is REMOTELY good, rather just be careful when it comes to looking at stats. The same rules apply to nearly every sport.

          It seems to me that a classic theme among ALL great defenses is a minimum of 2 GREAT players : a linebacker and a safety that fly to the ball, or a dominant lineman and a LB and/or Safety that does the same. We have nothing remotely resembling either. When you have 2 players on the field with these dominating characteristics, the entire defense as a group becomes great and will generally shut you down.

          I say we start by using 2-4 high draft picks and try to build this foundation and fill in as needed. Start with Taylor Mays from USC, the dude is a freak, then draft 2-3 lineman and maybe a linebacker. Use a mid round pick on some fresh legs to compete with Hillis.

          If we can even have a DECENT defense, I believe that multiple championships are in our future as in my opinion we have the foundation for what could be known as one of the greatest offensive teams in football history.

          Comment


          • #35
            Also, basing one's talent on where he was drafted is also a mistake. Just because a guy is picked in the first round doesn't mean much at all. Again this applies to other sports as well, namely baseball, where the difference between a first and a tenth rounder is often based on the players physical appearance in a uniform !!!!! Talent !!!?????

            Comment


            • #36
              building a defense

              Originally posted by jhildebrand View Post
              Talk to almost any Slowik supporter and they will tell you he needs more talent before we judge him. I don't buy it for one minute!

              Here is a list of teams in the NFL loads of talent that aren't ranked in the top 10 in Overall Defense. It shows that leadership counts for as much as talent in this league.

              This is a list of teams with 1st round Draft picks going back to 2000 on D and their 2008 defensive rank

              Houston Texans-6 players selected in the first round!
              Rank: 22nd!

              St. Louis-8 picks in the first round!
              Rank: 29th!!!!!

              Oakland-7 1st round picks on D
              Rank: 27

              Seattle-4 players in the 1st round
              rank: 30th!

              San Francisco-7 players
              Rank 16th

              Jacksonville-4 players selected
              Rank: 12

              I could go on and on here. I think it is important to note that the Steelers are the number one overall Defense in the league and they have no more than 3 1st round draft picks on Defense! Baltimore is #2 and they have only taken 3 guys in the first round.

              This is a team that needs some to draft more on D but by no means do we need to spend years and years of draft picks on D. We need a coach who knows how to coach em up.
              I'm not happy with either the talent level nor the defensive game-planning so let me acknowledge some agreement with you, JH, but there's also some sound arguments in this thread on the 'con' side of the argument so let me acknowledge those, too.

              Framing our defensive shortcomings as an 'either or' problem is somewhat misleading, besides being a black-and-white fallacy, although it's still a useful tool for analysis. However, one element that's missing from this dichotomy is the experience factor, by which I mean the time a successful defensive team has spent running its scheme with players who were drafted by that team and then played together and gained experience with that team and its scheme.

              At the heart of the problem is the period earlier in this decade when the Broncos failed to replenish their defensive corps in a series of unproductive drafts. Adding players through free agency helped somewhat but it wasn't as successful as in the free agency glory days in the 90s when the Broncos were able to buy crucial parts of their defense. That draft drought earlier in this decade had a lagged effect that wasn't apparent until last year.

              I won't apologize for Slowik's game planning/defensive calls or our current non-scheme scheme, but at the core of the Broncos' defensive problems is the lack of a nucleus of players who have played together for a period of time under the same scheme. Bringing in the remaining pieces of that nucleus through the draft is a necessary but not sufficient condition to rebuilding the Broncos' defense.

              There have been some signs of improvement this year even though it doesn't show in the statistics, but I've been baffled by the defensive play calling and can't help but wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a new DC. I don't know that changing defensive coaches once again is going to do much other than create discontinuity for the players so I'd prefer to see disruptions kept to a minimum. Most of the needed changes can be made by the existing staff without the public spectacle of a firing. Slowik is still popular with the players and he could demoted with less fanfare, if necessary.

              The following list is from the Broncos Press guide section on how the Broncos were built. It illustrates how few players have been added through the draft in the recent, belated rebuilding.


              Broncos defense through draft and college free agency

              2004
              LB D.J. Williams (1)

              2005
              CB Karl Paymah (3a)

              2006
              DE Elvis Dumervil (4b)

              2007
              DE Jarvis Moss (1)
              DE Tim Crowder (2)
              DT Marcus Thomas (4)

              2008
              CB Jack Williams (4b)
              DT Carlton Powell (5b)
              LB Spencer Larsen (6)
              S Josh Barrett (7a)

              LB Wesley Woodyard* (CFA)
              Last edited by colinski; 12-23-2008, 10:27 PM.
              There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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              • #37
                Originally posted by getlynched47 View Post
                I had a change in heart yesterday....Slowik has gotta go

                But "experts" say that the Broncos can't afford to change D-coordinators again and that Slowik will probably come back
                I am with you, I believed a couple weeks ago that Slowik should get another year, but it is clear now he must go.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by colinski View Post
                  I'm not happy with either the talent level nor the defensive game-planning so let me acknowledge some agreement with you, JH, but there's also some sound arguments in this thread on the 'con' side of the argument so let me acknowledge those, too.

                  Framing our defensive shortcomings as an 'either or' problem is somewhat misleading, besides being a black-and-white fallacy, although it's still a useful tool for analysis. However, one element that's missing from this dichotomy is the experience factor, by which I mean the time a successful defensive team has spent running its scheme with players who were drafted by that team and then played together and gained experience with that team and its scheme.

                  At the heart of the problem is the period earlier in this decade when the Broncos failed to replenish their defensive corps in a series of unproductive drafts. Adding players through free agency helped somewhat but it wasn't as successful as in the free agency glory days in the 90s when the Broncos were able to buy crucial parts of their defense. That draft drought earlier in this decade had a lagged effect that wasn't apparent until last year.

                  I won't apologize for Slowik's game planning/defensive calls or our current non-scheme scheme, but at the core of the Broncos' defensive problems is the lack of a nucleus of players who have played together for a period of time under the same scheme. Bringing in the remaining pieces of that nucleus through the draft is a necessary but not sufficient condition to rebuilding the Broncos' defense.

                  There have been some signs of improvement this year even though it doesn't show in the statistics, but I've been baffled by the defensive play calling and can't help but wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a new DC. I don't know that changing defensive coaches once again is going to do much other than create discontinuity for the players so I'd prefer to see disruptions kept to a minimum. Most of the needed changes can be made by the existing staff without the public spectacle of a firing. Slowik is still popular with the players and he could demoted with less fanfare, if necessary.

                  The following list is from the Broncos Press guide section on how the Broncos were built. It illustrates how few players have been added through the draft in the recent, belated rebuilding.


                  Broncos defense through draft and college free agency

                  2004
                  LB D.J. Williams (1)

                  2005
                  CB Karl Paymah (3a)

                  2006
                  DE Elvis Dumervil (4b)

                  2007
                  DE Jarvis Moss (1)
                  DE Tim Crowder (2)
                  DT Marcus Thomas (4)

                  2008
                  CB Jack Williams (4b)
                  DT Carlton Powell (5b)
                  LB Spencer Larsen (6)
                  S Josh Barrett (7a)

                  LB Wesley Woodyard* (CFA)
                  I have written in this thread, or the other Slowik thread, that exact point. Time together is especially important along the Defensive line. This is this lines as configured first year together.

                  I get that. Its a good point by you. My take on that, though, is that after seeing what we have from Slowik, it still is not enough IMHO to warrant keeping him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I'm all for continuity, and I understand that Slowick has not had the tools available to a dominating (or even average) defense.

                    But depending on who is available this offseason, I wouldn't be against seeing him demoted back to his prior position, and another DC brought in.

                    Even with the lack of talent on defense, I really think the Broncos could do much better. Bring in someone as a longer term answer (Nolan, Crennel, etc), and let them take control of the defense for at least 2-3 years.

                    I'm hoping for another good draft, and maybe a couple of solid free agent signings to bring the defense up to at least near the middle of the road. That's all that's needed to complement the offense.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Just my two cents. Winning systems or schemes develope winning players. There are some studs who would shine no matter who they played for. But far more common is the player who's system utilizes his abilities to the max. Look at DeAngelo Hall from all-pro to all-burned toast. Same athlete different system. Slowick has shown no ability to adapt his defensive game plan to changing conditions . "Well that didn't work let's run it again" You want winning players develope a winning system from a winning coach. Which imo Slowick is not.
                      Those Indians could prove troublesome...General George Armstrong Custer

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Chris Wade View Post
                        Just my two cents. Winning systems or schemes develope winning players. There are some studs who would shine no matter who they played for. But far more common is the player who's system utilizes his abilities to the max. Look at DeAngelo Hall from all-pro to all-burned toast. Same athlete different system. Slowick has shown no ability to adapt his defensive game plan to changing conditions . "Well that didn't work let's run it again" You want winning players develope a winning system from a winning coach. Which imo Slowick is not.
                        Which is a good point. If you recall, Coyer took over a defense that had the same NO TALENT argument (aside from Al and Champ) and worked a system to fit the players he had. They were small, undersized BUT FAST!

                        He turned them into a top scoring Defense. They were every year he was in control. With as many TO's as Plummer would have it helped him to know the D could get the ball back or Sauerbraun could flip the field.

                        Do you think this team would have even one more win if the defense could get them the ball? OFCOURSE THEY WOULD!!!! The turnover, created by pressure, in the ATL game helped win the game.

                        So again, I understand not rushing more than 4. If you are going to do that, dropping 7 into coverage, should either result in incompletions or turnovers! It hasn't. It worked for Buffalo at the end of the game. It didn't work for us. It alos has allowed teams to run on us.

                        I am all for Mike Nolan-not the weatherman-for DC.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jhildebrand View Post
                          Coyer took over a defense that had the same NO TALENT argument (aside from Al and Champ)
                          Heres the problem though after Drafting Al Wilson..

                          I believe is much more the reason why the Broncos defense is in the shape that it is more so then Slowik..I believe coaches can make a big difference..I dont necessarily think that coach is Slowik but I blame the failed drafts and lack of Quality FA more then I do Slowik...Like,Hate,Love Shanahan this is his team regardless of who the DC is ..

                          '00 Gone
                          1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
                          2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
                          2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
                          4 101 Jerry Johnson

                          '01 All player gone
                          1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB
                          2 51 Paul Toviessi DE
                          3 87 Reggie Hayward DE

                          '02 Gone
                          4 131 Sam Brandon DB
                          7 228 Chris Young DB
                          7 231 Monsanto Pope DT

                          '03 Gone
                          2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
                          4 114 Nick Eason DT Clemson
                          4 128 Bryant McNeal DE Clemson
                          7 227 Clint Mitchell DE Florida

                          '04
                          1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.) 1
                          3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan
                          5 152 Jeff Shoate CB San Diego State

                          '05
                          2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
                          3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State 1
                          3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland

                          '06
                          4 126 Elvis Dumervil DE 1

                          '07
                          1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida jury is still out
                          2 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
                          4 121 Marcus Thomas DT Florida :thumb:

                          I love the '08 draft but if the defense is in last place 2 years straight and You supposedly took a new stance on FA and the first defensive player you take in the draft is a 4th round CB from Kent State..Houston we have a problem...

                          '08
                          4 119 Jack Williams CB

                          The problem is with all these players that did not stick and was not the right player for whatever the scheme was the Broncos replaced them with journeymen free agents that other teams did not want because of a lack of talent "Scrubs"...Shanahan can not mold players on defense like he can on offense and 3 DC later he is having trouble finding one that can..

                          Saying this I have not wrote the Broncos season off and hold out hope they can make the playoffs and go from there...

                          But if asked whats wrong with the defense this is my answer ..
                          :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo: :logo:

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                          • #43
                            Well buddy there's at least as many good points in that post as there is on the my head . Which is a bunch . Your players must have a basic competence level or no system will help you. You know what got me ? Before the Jets game the talking head said something about Shanahan taking a role in the defense that game. And look what happened. As far as I was concerned it was the best they'd played all year. I don't know if Shanahan helps set up the basic D to start the game (when we seem to do well) then is too busy to help make adjustments . I just see the opposing offense countering the D and we do nothing in return.
                            Those Indians could prove troublesome...General George Armstrong Custer

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Atwnbroncfan View Post
                              where a player is drafted doesnt matter as your proving. what matters is how a player fits your scheme. does slowick even have a scheme? lol
                              Yes, he has a few schemes. It may vary between the Undersized 3-4 Big Hole and the 4-4 With-Steve-Smith-On-The-Field. Not to mention the 10 Yard Run-Your-Hook-Route-Here Cushion strategy.
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