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  • Originally posted by JrtheFreak View Post
    More people like him!

    Go Jay on the Pro Bowl!
    All Bronco homerism aside, and I hate him with a PASSION, Rivers deserved to be picked over Farvie IMO.

    Denver-48

    Buffalo-17

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Go_Bolts04 View Post
      Not true, at least for this Chargers fan. I still think wins is the most important stat there is. In fact, when it comes down to it, wins is the only stat. Rivers has not won this year...so I'm ok with him not going to the ProBowl if that is what the selection is based upon. Of course, Culter should be left off the team as well under those rules considering there are 7 other AFC QB's with more wins this year then your boy.

      The truth is the ProBowl is "supposed" to recognize individual excellence over team performance, yet in reality the ProBowl is and always has been a popularity contest.

      How else does Gates go to the PB? He has done very little this year, yet he's a big name. Dielman? I love the guy, but he has played like Sh*& this year.

      Congrats to Cutler for making the squad. He's popular I guess... good for him. But, if the orange colored glasses ever come off you'd agree he hasn't outplayed Rivers this year. As for wins? Cutler has the edge and maybe that makes the difference.

      I want so much to say out loud how they would both be 7-7 right now if Ed Hochuli had made the correct call in week 2, but that might sound like sour-grapes so I'll just keep that one to myself.

      All I hope for is for Cutler to keep playing at his ProBowl form like he did the in Carolina on Sunday. If he keeps it up, then even the "wins" stat may not be in his favor by the end of next Sunday (Dec 28).
      Here's the thing - I'm not saying that wins or passer rating is the only true measure of a QB. I'm just pointing out that most of your mates went from worshipping Rivers "because he wins" to worshipping him "because he has a great passer rating".

      I don't have too high an opinion of him. I don't like his big mouth, but as a player I think he's a good QB, not exceptional. However, when you consider that your team has a good record when LT and Gates are healthy and sucks when they aren't, it shows you how immaterial Rivers is to your team. Do you honestly believe that this season would be that much different with say Kerry Collins or Chad Pennington as your QB? Or would you have been any less dominant the last couple of seasons with either of these two guys?

      I think Cutler is among the best young QBs in the game. He has the stats AND the wins, and more importantly, will get a lot more of each. However, the biggest thing that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league is that he is carrying this team almost single-handedly (something he did last season as well). With almost any QB other than Cutler, we don't win any more than 4 games either last year or this year. He was amazing last year in his first year starting and was incredibly clutch. This year, he has only gotten better. He is the biggest (some would say only) threat on our team. Our defense is the worst in the league, our running game is practically nonexistent, and our receivers lead the league in drops. That we are winning despite this is primarily because of Cutler (also Shanahan, but primarily Cutler).

      Kerry Collins and Penington have more wins than Cutler, but look a little deeper and you will find who is more of a "winning QB".

      The mistake a lot of people make is trying to find that one thing that defines a good QB. IMO it is a multitude of factors. Wins are important, so are individual stats, and so are situational stats.

      I think if you have followed the Chargers and the Broncos this season, are aware of the wide chasm that still exists between the talent level of the two rosters, the records of the two teams tell you everything you need to know about Cutler and Rivers.

      Broncos fans can hate your team, but we never confused LT with Mike Anderson. Charger fans who can't acknowledge that Cutler is on a different level from Rivers have zero credibility with me.
      Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by IdahoCharger View Post
        You make some pretty valid points, I must admit. Cutler has carried the offense on his back. If he were on any other team I'd really be pulling for the guy. The way my beloved Bolts have played this year under Norb "Please God make AJ come to his senses" Turnip, they really don't deserve to be even thinking playoffs. That being said, I think that Philip has really proved a couple of things this year: that he can carry the team when needed, and that he is not the big-mouthed jerk you guys make him out to be. You guys need to get over that just as much as we need to let the Hochuli thing go...
        That's so true. I don't know why people around here hate him so much. I only have feelings against him when the two teams play each other. In general, I don't like the Chargers team because they are a rival, just like I don't like the Chiefs and Raiders, but one individual doesn't matter.

        I root for LT every game he isn't playing against Denver, just because I like who he is. But that doesn't make me a traitor to the Broncos. I think some people around here are maybe too mean.

        Comment


        • Rivers did get shafted. When cutler plays good, he's way better than rivers. When he plays bad he's way worse. Rivers beside the bills game is consistently good. He should have made it instead of favre. As for cutler starting.... that's stupid. He's been way to inconsistent to be the best qb in the afc. One day maybe, but not this year. Manning has played pretty damn well in the last 8 games straight and might even win mvp this year.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AC1- Here's the thing - I'm not saying that wins or passer rating is the only true measure of a QB. I'm just pointing out that most of your mates went from worshipping Rivers "because he wins" to worshipping him "because he has a great passer rating".
            Of course we find reasons to like our QB. I could say the same about Jay Cutler and Broncos fans. Last year , you all looked to passing stats, and this year you quote how he "wins" by carrying your team single-handedly. That's what fans do.

            I don't have too high an opinion of him. I don't like his big mouth, but as a player I think he's a good QB, not exceptional.
            Again, you need to get over the December game from last year. You don't have a clue as to what was said, how it was said, or who else (Cutler) also did some jaw-jacking. Cutler gives as good as he gets. I've heard at least 3 separate interviews this year in which Cutler mentions how he doesn't like Rivers, doesn't like how Rivers carries himself etc. I know, I know, in your opinion it's all justified because he's your guy, or you might say the media pushed him into making comments. But really, it's all about perception. Yours will always be tilted towards JC and mine will always be tilted towards PR. Who cares?

            However, when you consider that your team has a good record when LT and Gates are healthy and sucks when they aren't, it shows you how immaterial Rivers is to your team.
            You sound like a real football fan, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe you just didn't watch any of the playoffs last year. Rivers, almost single handedly took the Bolts to two playoff wins....and did it on a torn ACL. Gates and LT were non-factors in the last 5 games of last season and for much of this season as well.

            Do you honestly believe that this season would be that much different with say Kerry Collins or Chad Pennington as your QB? Or would you have been any less dominant the last couple of seasons with either of these two guys?
            Ummm, yep. Quite simply the Bolts would be worse off with either of those guys under center.

            I think Cutler is among the best young QBs in the game. He has the stats AND the wins, and more importantly, will get a lot more of each. However, the biggest thing that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league is that he is carrying this team almost single-handedly (something he did last season as well). With almost any QB other than Cutler, we don't win any more than 4 games either last year or this year. He was amazing last year in his first year starting and was incredibly clutch. This year, he has only gotten better. He is the biggest (some would say only) threat on our team.
            Not knocking Cutler. I think he's developing into a pretty good QB. He's been lucky at times this year which puts him into perhaps a little better light then he deserves, but everyone benefits from luck a time or two, so good for him.

            Our defense is the worst in the league,
            Actually KC has the wrost. Denver is at 28 and San Diego not far behind at 25

            our running game is practically nonexistent
            Umm, not exaclty. Denver is 15th in the NFL with 113 YPG, while SD even with LT is number 27.

            , and our receivers lead the league in drops.
            Possibly because they get thrown to more often than most. It would be pretty hard for you to convince many people that Marshall and Royal are anything less than one of the best WR tandems in the league right now.

            That we are winning despite this is primarily because of Cutler (also Shanahan, but primarily Cutler).
            No argument, Cutler has done his share.

            Kerry Collins and Penington have more wins than Cutler, but look a little deeper and you will find who is more of a "winning QB".
            Cutler is much better than either of those guys. I agree.

            The mistake a lot of people make is trying to find that one thing that defines a good QB. IMO it is a multitude of factors. Wins are important, so are individual stats, and so are situational stats.
            Don't forget leadership. Not sure I'm all that convinced that Cutler does that very well. Seen him act like someone stole his puppy at times when he makes a mistake or when things don't go well. I'm 100% sure you see it differently, but I think that is Cutler's biggest negative. Rivers needs to grow up at times, but there is no doubt that he is the leader of the team right now. And that includes LT.

            I think if you have followed the Chargers and the Broncos this season, are aware of the wide chasm that still exists between the talent level of the two rosters, the records of the two teams tell you everything you need to know about Cutler and Rivers.
            If the Chargers are so damn talented, they sure aren't playing like it. Man for man, I like the Bolts roster overall against the Broncos, but I think they were built up in the media way too much and for whatever reason started to beleive the hype. This season is a good indication that your name means nothing, how you play together as a TEAM is everything.

            Broncos fans can hate your team, but we never confused LT with Mike Anderson. Charger fans who can't acknowledge that Cutler is on a different level from Rivers have zero credibility with me.
            I doubt if you'd find too many people, Chargers fans or not, who really care all that much about having credibility with you.
            Last edited by Go_Bolts04; 12-17-2008, 06:01 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by theshiverman View Post
              I dont know that people like Cutler more, but the way Rivers acted last year on the sidelines in a few games with the taunting and imature stuff couldnt have helped his cause, fans of the Chargers may have been fine with it but my guess is the rest of the country saw it as stupid and foolish, people have a hard time admiring someone that acts like that with the poor sportsmanship.
              U hit the nail on the head!!:salute!:
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JrtheFreak View Post
                More people like him!

                Go Jay on the Pro Bowl!
                WOW You guys are dilusional.

                Rivers has arguably better stats than all 6 QB's that did make the Pro Bowl, and the only difference in the record between the Chargers and Broncos is the darn Ed Hochuli call in week 2, otherwise both teams are 7-7 right now. (And thats only because you guys got away without playing Indy and Pitt, 2 games you know you would have lost)
                Last edited by matilack; 12-17-2008, 09:56 PM.

                Comment


                • Appreciate the detailed response.

                  Originally posted by Go_Bolts04 View Post
                  Of course we find reasons to like our QB. I could say the same about Jay Cutler and Broncos fans. Last year , you all looked to passing stats, and this year you quote how he "wins" by carrying your team single-handedly. That's what fans do.
                  Actually, most Broncos fans believe Cutler is good because of many reasons (mostly because of how he has carried the team on his shoulders). We are able to appreciate that wins are not everything (because of Plummer) nor are stats everything (because of Griese).

                  You guys get the 'wins argument' thrown at you a lot this year, because you guys were so in love with it last year, to the point that you were chanting it to the exclusion of everything else.

                  Again, you need to get over the December game from last year. You don't have a clue as to what was said, how it was said, or who else (Cutler) also did some jaw-jacking. Cutler gives as good as he gets. I've heard at least 3 separate interviews this year in which Cutler mentions how he doesn't like Rivers, doesn't like how Rivers carries himself etc. I know, I know, in your opinion it's all justified because he's your guy, or you might say the media pushed him into making comments. But really, it's all about perception. Yours will always be tilted towards JC and mine will always be tilted towards PR. Who cares?
                  Are you surprised that Cutler doesn't like the way Rivers carries himself? Is there anyone who does? There have been reports that players on your own team don't like the way he carries himself.

                  Are you equating "jaw-jacking" with coming onto the field and taunting the opposing QB as he leaves the field? Especially when punk-mouth wasn't playing any more in the game?

                  As far as I'm concerned, if Champ, one of the classiest guys around, thinks you're a punk, you're probably a punk.

                  You sound like a real football fan, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe you just didn't watch any of the playoffs last year. Rivers, almost single handedly took the Bolts to two playoff wins....and did it on a torn ACL. Gates and LT were non-factors in the last 5 games of last season and for much of this season as well.

                  Ummm, yep. Quite simply the Bolts would be worse off with either of those guys under center.
                  I did watch the playoff games and while I didn't watch it with the same intensity that you must have (and I'm happy to be corrected about them), what I saw was teams game planning to stop LT and Gates. I remember Tennessee especially loading up the box to stop LT and daring Rivers to beat them (and you guys got a 100+ yards between LT and Turner against Indy). I don't think you can call that a single-handed win by Rivers. Moreover, your defense caused multiple turnovers in all three playoff games (2 against Ten and 3 against Indy and NE). Cutler only gets 3 turnovers from his defense in his dreams, let alone getting them against two of the toughest teams in the playoffs.

                  I know Rivers won a lot of respect for his performance in the AFCCG against the Pats and LT got trashed for sitting out. I think that was really unfair to LT. His replacements got you guys 100 yards at nearly 5 yards a carry and I think Billy Volek could have done better than a 50% completion rate with 0 TDs and 2 INTs. I don't blame Rivers for wanting to play (if Volek wins that game, you suddenly have a QB controversy) but Turner shouldn't have let him.

                  Overall, in the last two playoff games against the Colts and the Patriots, your defense held 2 of the three best offenses in the league to well under their season averages (while getting 3 turnovers each) and your offense averaged 15 points in those two games. It would seem to me that your defense won the first two games and nearly won the third while trying to overcome your offense (and considering your 100 yards rushing in two games, your QB).


                  Not knocking Cutler. I think he's developing into a pretty good QB. He's been lucky at times this year which puts him into perhaps a little better light then he deserves, but everyone benefits from luck a time or two, so good for him.
                  He has actually been quite unlucky this year. He had the ball slip out of his hand during a game (which must have been the only time in his life that happened), since that game (and probably because of it) he's been on the receiving end of a bunch of bogus PI calls and non-calls, including one that cost us the Miami game, he has had receivers run wrong routes that led to interceptions, and like I mentioned he has had his running backs go down like a house of cards, had one of the worst Bronco defenses of all time, and has receivers that lead the league in drops. I don't see how anyone could call that being lucky.

                  Actually KC has the wrost. Denver is at 28 and San Diego not far behind at 25
                  You're partly right. Denver isn't the worst. Detroit is, with 31.7 points/game. But Denver is 29th. San Diego is in fact qutie a bit ahead at 14th.

                  Umm, not exaclty. Denver is 15th in the NFL with 113 YPG, while SD even with LT is number 27.
                  You're right. But there's more to it than yardage. The Broncos don't have the threat of a running game. Our yards have been collected by a bunch of backups the defense usually didn't worry about. Our rushing yards have been helped by our passing game. With San Diego, despite the low yardage, LT's reputation still makes opponents fear the run (maybe not more than the pass, but enough to not ignore it completely). Denver's opponents don't fear the run.

                  Possibly because they get thrown to more often than most. It would be pretty hard for you to convince many people that Marshall and Royal are anything less than one of the best WR tandems in the league right now.
                  It doesn't change the fact that their drops make Cutler's numbers look worse. It could also be argued that Marshall and Royal are as good as they are because of how much they get thrown to.

                  No argument, Cutler has done his share.

                  Cutler is much better than either of those guys. I agree.

                  Don't forget leadership. Not sure I'm all that convinced that Cutler does that very well. Seen him act like someone stole his puppy at times when he makes a mistake or when things don't go well. I'm 100% sure you see it differently, but I think that is Cutler's biggest negative. Rivers needs to grow up at times, but there is no doubt that he is the leader of the team right now. And that includes LT.
                  You were telling me that I'm reading too much into last December's incident with Rivers, without knowing what he said. Yet you are making judgements based on your perception of Cutler's body language.

                  I think Cutler is more of a leader of his team than Rivers is of his and there isn't a contest (even though he is a couple of years younger than Rivers). San Diego has Merriman, whose leadership is only now being appreciated by you most people, LT and Gates.

                  Heck, Cutler was the leader of this team in his second year itself. No teammate or coach helped Brandon Marshall get his off-the-field stuff together more than Cutler (the bulk of the credit still goes to Marshall of course). Cutler's biggest weakness is his handling of the media, which he will get better at. But the way he has rallied this injury-ravaged team together (while dealing with his own personal issues, don't forget) in only his third year is simply amazing. This is unquestionably his team.

                  If the Chargers are so damn talented, they sure aren't playing like it. Man for man, I like the Bolts roster overall against the Broncos, but I think they were built up in the media way too much and for whatever reason started to beleive the hype. This season is a good indication that your name means nothing, how you play together as a TEAM is everything.
                  And doesn't this tie in with leadership? If your team is underachieving, doesn't it speak to the quality of leadership.? It reflects more on the coaching than anything else sure, but what does it say about Rivers if you say that he is the leader of his team and also say that his team is underperforming.

                  I doubt if you'd find too many people, Chargers fans or not, who really care all that much about having credibility with you.
                  It was a polite way of saying they're full of crap. If I choose to react to it like you, I could now say that no one, Broncos fans or not, really care all that much about your doubts.
                  Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by matilack View Post
                    WOW You guys are dilusional.

                    Rivers has arguably better stats than all 6 QB's that did make the Pro Bowl, and the only difference in the record between the Chargers and Broncos is the darn Ed Hochuli call in week 2, otherwise both teams are 7-7 right now. (And thats only because you guys got away without playing Indy and Pitt, 2 games you know you would have lost)
                    If you get the Hochuli call (which you didn't deserve because it's not like you caused the fumble), we don't have a bunch of make-up calls go against us in subsequent games, nor does our team relax and lose to inferior teams (at least not to KC). The make-up calls cost us the Miami and Jacksonville games, and the overconfidence cost us the KC game. So sure, we might have lost that game, but would have won three others and would be 10-4 right now, with the division wrapped up. If you'd rather be 7-7 to our 10-4, that's your prerogative.
                    Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

                    Comment


                    • I always find it kind of funny when we all get to picking who goes to the Pro Bowl. We always talk it up during the selection and make a lot out of how many times these player go to it. But when it all comes down to the actual game, how many of us, honestly, tune the game in? How many of us watch the whole thing? Do any of us really care who wins? I watch it only because it's the last "game" of the season and I won't get another football "fix" for another 6 months. (I really hate the off-season)

                      I'm not knocking it at all. It's an opportunity for fans to vote for their favorite players, etc. I know it's important to the players and it is an honor for them to participate in it. I just feel the game itself is a little overblown. Just my opinion.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by AC1 View Post
                        If you get the Hochuli call (which you didn't deserve because it's not like you caused the fumble), we don't have a bunch of make-up calls go against us in subsequent games, nor does our team relax and lose to inferior teams (at least not to KC). The make-up calls cost us the Miami and Jacksonville games, and the overconfidence cost us the KC game. So sure, we might have lost that game, but would have won three others and would be 10-4 right now, with the division wrapped up. If you'd rather be 7-7 to our 10-4, that's your prerogative.
                        Who cares if we didn't deserve it? Jay Cutler choked, Philip Rivers didn't, Cutler got a second chance HE DIDN'T deserve.

                        So your ignorant enough to think the Chargers didn't get screwed on another call all year?

                        1. How bout vs the Saints....a phantom PI call on Clinton Hart in the endzone GAVE THEM 7pts rather than forcing the punt on 3rd and 17. We also had a rediculous false start penalty that took us off the goal line and forced Norv to kick the field goal!

                        2. The same exact thing happened in the Indy game, a phantom PI call that even Al Michaels publically criticized WAS the difference in the game. Just after that they kicked the game winning FG.

                        Also there was a HUGE fumble by Anthony Gonzales that the ref blew the wistle on before the ball changed hands, he talked Norv out of challenging the play.

                        3. Or the Carolina game in week 1. Gates was sitting on the ground and the ball was stripped and returned for a TD, the ref said he was still trying to move forward!

                        4. Or Pittsburgh, where Roethlisburger was getting a solid 5 cushion seconds to get the snap off after the clock had run out. They also took a TD away from Gates saying he pushed off, when clearly he only had one hand resting on the corner's hip.

                        5. Or this last week in KC where Dielman gets ejected because a stupid rookie ref thought he saw him throw a punch!



                        It wasn't just one game fools, refs have been horrid this year for all teams.

                        Comment


                        • As a diehard Bronco fan, my gut is in knots....

                          First, I've been around long enough to remember the Dan Reeves and Wade Phillips eras, so let me tell you something, the Shanahan era was by far the best of the three. And not just because he won 2 Super Bowls for us and Elway, but because in the 14 years here as Head Coach, we've had 2, count them, 2 losing seasons.

                          Guys, take a look around the NFL. There are alot of teams that struggle year in and year out. Shanahan was a constant here, and we benefited from it.

                          Now, what's going to happen?

                          Who is Bowlen going to replace him with?

                          A veteran head coach? Bill Cowher? If Cowher wanted to retire after spending 10+ years at Pittsburg, what makes you think he's going to want to come to Denver. Not to mention, as others have before, that he's from the East Coast and I don't think he'd be interested. But let's say he does, how long do you think he's going to want to continue coaching. Guys, he got tired of doing it at Pittsburgh, and he was as set there as Shanahan was here. He had great ownership, a great team, and great fans. If he was tired of coaching at Pittsburgh, I seriously doubt that Bowlen is going to lure him here.

                          Bill Parcells? These two coaches are the only ones that I believe are successful veteran coaches.

                          What about up and coming OC or DC? Giants DC? Vikings DC?

                          All of which brings me to another thought. Whomever Bowlen brings in, he's going to bring in his own philosophies. Now some of you might think, "Yea, that's what we need!" And I may agree with you, DEFENSIVELY. But what about someone who doesn't believe in the ZONE BLOCKING style of play? Are any of our OL suited for MAN to MAN blocking? No, they are all suited for ZONE, although one believes that maybe Clady could make the transition. Which means an entirely new OL over the course of the next 2 or 3 years, once again losing that continuity. And if they don't believe in the zone blocking scheme on offense, then what about our RBs? Will they be able to find a back to fit their new scheme when we don't have the OL to block that scheme?

                          And since Shanahan has had control over everything, all that scouting this past year has been wasted unless Bowlen hires someone with the same philosophies that Shanahan had on offense. And does Bowlen hire a GM?

                          Will they completely clean house?

                          I wish that Bowlen had told Shanahan that he had 1 more year to turn it around. I'd have liked to seen one more year.

                          Bye Shanahan. The greatest coach in Denver Bronco history.:salute!:
                          Personal goals: GOAL WEIGHT = 250lbs
                          Weight loss needed for FGW = 120 lbs
                          Weight lost so far: - 24 lbs

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                          • While I disagree with you in some key areas, you made a very good post and substantiated it with solid arguments. My advice to you is this: calm down and put some faith in Bowlen. Also, read this:

                            http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0...-everyone.html

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ch1ggs View Post
                              While I disagree with you in some key areas, you made a very good post and substantiated it with solid arguments. My advice to you is this: calm down and put some faith in Bowlen. Also, read this:

                              http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0...-everyone.html
                              no offense, but what key areas do you disagree with?
                              Personal goals: GOAL WEIGHT = 250lbs
                              Weight loss needed for FGW = 120 lbs
                              Weight lost so far: - 24 lbs

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ch1ggs View Post
                                While I disagree with you in some key areas, you made a very good post and substantiated it with solid arguments. My advice to you is this: calm down and put some faith in Bowlen. Also, read this:

                                http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0...-everyone.html
                                It was just as tough a call when Reeves was canned (made easy by the rift with Elway). He was a very successful coach. So yes, we should have faith in Bowlen, who has always done what he felt was best for us to win.

                                R Ayers - B Cofield - A Haynesworth - CJ ohnson
                                J Anderson - J Beason - DJ Williams
                                R Bailey - P Amukamara - R Hill - A Goodman

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