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  • jhns
    replied
    The bottom line is you don't let a rookie, who has never done anything before in thie league, come in and trade your pro bowl QB. If McDaniels is here 5-6 years, he will have been here far longer than the average coaching stint on a team. Cutler will be in the league for much longer than that. What happens when McDaniels is gone and we don't have some QB guru coach? We would have had years left with Cutler if he was here. At that point we will be searching for a QB and crying because of how good Cutler is. You can all lie to yourselves as much as you want but just wait. I really hope you all remember the stance you took at this time.

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  • BroncosRockdaRockies
    replied
    Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
    I understand what you are saying... I really do. I work for a living, too. But If I'm not qualified for a certain job, than I shouldn't be hired or should have my portfolio reduced. Josh McDaniels was given a HC job with the Denver Broncos. The Goodmans were handling the FO. Even after the Goodmans were let go, Xanders went on camera to feed his ego about his new job. He is supposed to be the GM of this team. I don't think McDaniels is qualified to manage personnel and salary cap (my opinion of Xanders is a whole other story!).


    If he doesn't realize the consequences of taking phone calls regarding a trade for your franchise qb, then he shouldn't be answering the calls, somebody else should be doing it. It all boils down to this, he just didn't want Cutler. Period. Try to justify it all you want, say he was obligated to listen to trade offers, despite how many people have stated that "if you're going to listen to the offer, you'd better pull the trigger." Nobody is obligated to listen to any offers if you are not interested in getting rid of a player. He wanted to get rid of Cutler. Do you honestly think Shanny would have even listened to an offer for Cutler? No way!

    There are major consequences for those actions, Can. Listen to any HC out there who has commented on the subject, they all say the same thing. There is no reason to risk upsetting the balance of the team just to check out what the going rate for a player is. If you were interested enough to find out what the going rate for a player is, than you are interested in getting rid of the player. Whether you get what you want or not is another matter altogether.

    I would have been more accepting if it was handled properly. This thing was botched since the minute he spoke on the phone. He spoke to people that weren't trustworthy, it leaked out and now we are the ones suffering for that mistake. I'm sorry, but that is not a minor mistake and is not acceptable to me. That is just flat out a mistake. The only time something should leak is if it's intentional. This should have never gotten to Jay unless they wanted it to.


    Because we all know what the phone call is about before we answer it?

    Sources have said that McDaniels answered the phone yes, listened to the trade offers yes, But in the end before Jay asked to be traded he was still here and did not get traded therefore I have to believe that when McDaniels said we are not looking to trade Jay, Jay Cutler is our guy then the ball was passed into Jay's court.

    The more and more this unfolds I am led to believe that Cutler found out about this for a reason, I think that McDaniels saw the attitude problem with Jay and the threat to trade him was to get him on the right track to leadership kinda like a reverse psychology rumor so to speak. And now it is what it is.

    Jay is not mature enough to be a leader for the Denver Broncos and now he is Chicago's problem. Which I am thankfull since we see on many teams looking from Outside in, how many teams fall apart with one or two players with bad attitudes.

    So once again I do think Jay has skills, Does he have Pro Bowl skills? No I don't think so. What were his stats in the Pro Bowl? Is a Jay a leader? No, a leader wouldv'e sat down and talked to his coach and Owner and at least tried to talk Man to Man and he didn't he let his Agent do the communicating. But regardless everyone has put him so high on a pedastal there is no way anyone will change their mind anytime soon, Cutler and McDaniels and McDaniels's careers should be looked at 5 years from now then compare who was at fault. "If you want"

    I could careless I have seen so many players come and go from this team, He does not have a winning record to me that is not a Pro Bowl QB, yeah he guns it to his recievers but so many people that are taking Jay's side do not want to include his faults like the INT's they wanna make him out to be the next Elway and sorry but Elway had alot better Leadership skills in College than Jay has at this point in his career.

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  • the-shuffler
    replied
    Originally posted by the-shuffler View Post
    I said losing a franchise QB "COULD set the team back 5-10 years". That was not a prediction of the broncos ship sinking. I am simply stating the obvious. You lose a Franchise QB and it could be 5,10 or more years before you find another.

    The point being... a Rookie Coach/GM's decision affects the organization for years, whereas a QBs rookie mistakes may affect the outcome of a game or two. Which is why a Coach/Gms decision deserves more scrutiny.
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    I'm sure a lot of people felt this same way when Bellichick got rid of Bledsoe in New England.

    I remember reading that Bellichick wasn't a fan of Bledsoe because Bledsoe wasn't quick enough mentally, and he made inexplicable mistakes during games.

    I don't know that the same can be said for Cutler. I only saw 5 games he played in with my own eyes. The rest was on television. It's hard to see the routes run and the exact coverages on TV. But from what I saw, there were a lot of missed reads and mistakes. I'm not saying there weren't some good plays too, but there were a lot of mistakes.
    Well, the Brady/Bledsoe scenario is VERY different.
    1) Bellichick was NOT a rookie Head Coach when Bledsoe was "Pulled". He was in his second year with the Pats, and had previously coached the browns.
    2) Bledsoe was injured, which is why Bellichick had to "Bench Bledsoe"
    3) If Brady was terrible, Bellichick could have put Bledsoe back in.

    In the case of McDaniels and the missing QB
    1) McDaniels IS a rookie head coach and has traded the QB away
    2) It was NOT due to injury. In fact, McDaniels now has a QB who was "injured" for half of last year with a sprained ankle.
    3) If Orton doesnt pan out... McDaniels cannot go back to the old QB.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crazy8
    replied
    Originally posted by the-shuffler View Post
    I said losing a franchise QB "COULD set the team back 5-10 years". That was not a prediction of the broncos ship sinking. I am simply stating the obvious. You lose a Franchise QB and it could be 5,10 or more years before you find another.

    The point being... a Rookie Coach/GM's decision affects the organization for years, whereas a QBs rookie mistakes may affect the outcome of a game or two. Which is why a Coach/Gms decision deserves more scrutiny.
    I'm sure a lot of people felt this same way when Bellichick got rid of Bledsoe in New England.

    I remember reading that Bellichick wasn't a fan of Bledsoe because Bledsoe wasn't quick enough mentally, and he made inexplicable mistakes during games.

    I don't know that the same can be said for Cutler. I only saw 5 games he played in with my own eyes. The rest was on television. It's hard to see the routes run and the exact coverages on TV. But from what I saw, there were a lot of missed reads and mistakes. I'm not saying there weren't some good plays too, but there were a lot of mistakes.
    Last edited by Crazy8; 05-28-2009, 06:54 AM.

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  • the-shuffler
    replied
    Originally posted by the-shuffler View Post
    The problem is Head Coaches/GMs make BIG decisions that affects the organization for years to come. Cutler making a bad decision on the field... may cost the team a game or two.

    Losing a franchise QB could set the team back for 5-10 years!

    Sure I make mistakes at my job. But if I make a huge mistake like crashing the DB and losing the backup files... guess what? They wouldnt just chauk that up to a rookie mistake.... I would have been escorted out the door.
    Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
    You talk as if the Broncos are lost for a decade. We dont know if they are or arent. Is Orton as physicality talented? No. Is he smarter and more of a leader? Yes. Is he a better fit for "the system" yes. And name one other position that we dont have better players in?

    Dont predict they will sink and call it fact. No one knows until into next season what is going to happen.
    I said losing a franchise QB "COULD set the team back 5-10 years". That was not a prediction of the broncos ship sinking. I am simply stating the obvious. You lose a Franchise QB and it could be 5,10 or more years before you find another.

    The point being... a Rookie Coach/GM's decision affects the organization for years, whereas a QBs rookie mistakes may affect the outcome of a game or two. Which is why a Coach/Gms decision deserves more scrutiny.
    Last edited by the-shuffler; 05-27-2009, 10:53 PM.

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  • colinski
    replied
    defining terms

    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    You have a very different definition of "shopping" someone than most folks, then.

    Shopping someone in my mind means that the team that has the player in question is actively looking to trade them to one (but usually more) other teams.

    In this case, Tampa approached the Broncos - not the other way around. And it was one call, not several.

    Presuming that everything else in this article is accurate, even this is not what constitutes "shopping a player around" by almost anyone's definition.
    That's what I and most people define as shopping.

    There was never a serious report of Denver attempting to trade Cutler, just the initial reports of Tampa Bay and other teams attempting to obtain Cutler from Denver.

    Cook and Cutler's news conference comes within a few days of Schefter's original report, which is the only original reporting on the subject, so Cook and Cutler's reaction traces to this report. Although Cook presents the purported slight as the mere act of listening to trade offers, which is an important distinction since he professes no knowledge of attempts by Denver to shop Cutler, he also raises the specter of how damaging it would be if Denver 'were' indeed attempting to shop Cutler, and then dwells on it on for emphasis.

    "I do think under the circumstances it was very poor on their part if in fact they were trying to trade Jay," Cook said.
    Whereas Cook mostly postures about hypothetical damage if Denver were attempting to shop Cutler, Cutler acts as if proof is unnecessary. The divergence between Cook and Cutler's stories at this point is important. What Cook says he 'doesn't' know Cutler treats as a given. LINK.

    "You don't know what's true and what's not true. Depends on what you read." - Bus Cook
    "I don't know if they were actively seeking to trade Jay, but on the other hand, I don't know that they were turning a deaf ear to potential offers, either." - Bus Cook
    Cook never claims to know of attempts to shop Cutler but instead refers to a vague offense the Broncos must have somehow committed to have produced the impasse. And this impasse consists solely of Cutler's insistence that he's on the trading block -- despite what Schefter's report said -- and the Broncos repeatedly and adamantly deny this. No report emerges of the Broncos trying to trade Cutler to another team, the only report of trade talk is the original report by Schefter of the Tampa Bay and Detroit attempts to obtain Cutler.

    Echo chamber effects are common for issues such as this, and the distinction between a report of Cutler speculating about being shopped and an actual report of his being shopped is extinguished. As another poster here said, "it's a game of telephone."

    What's interesting about the National Football Post's use of Schefter's reporting is that the only thing that appears to have been changed is the headline. The simple insertion of "shopping" in the headline radically changes the meaning of the entire story for many readers, despite the fact that Schefter says something very different in the body of the article. The headline was NFP's addition and didn't appear on the original, (see original).

    Another curious fact is how little attention was paid to the Broncos' immediate and emphatic denials. The Denver Post's Klis states that the Broncos denied they were shopping Cutler on Saturday, February 28, which is the same day that Schefter broke his story. The Broncos addressed the situation immediately rather than letting it get out of control, as some have charged, but Cook and Cutler react with extreme skepticism despite being unable to cite alternative sources of information that would lead to them disbelieve the team's account.

    The immediacy of the Broncos' response is a significant fact, not because it establishes credibility for either the Broncos or Cutler, but because any efforts by the Broncos to trade Cutler after this point would occur in an environment of heightened awareness. And no reports appear anywhere of a Bronco effort to trade Cutler, except -- of course -- Cutler's repeated and inexplicable insistence that the Broncos are trying to trade him.

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  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
    You can try to rationalize it however you want, your analogy failed

    No hard feelings, we're all fans here!
    Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

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  • broncobruj
    replied
    Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
    Think about this:

    Coke introduced New Coke & everyone freaked. Broncos trade Jay Cutler, everyone freaks.

    Coke makes adjustments to the original formula and reintroduces it, everyone is skeptical. Broncos make adjustments to the offense, bring in Orton, many fans are skeptical.

    Fans see that Coke Classic is good, fans are happy. We will wait to see if the tread continues (and as you know, I think it will!).
    You can try to rationalize it however you want, your analogy failed

    No hard feelings, we're all fans here!

    Leave a comment:


  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
    I don't know if you are too young to remember, or you don't care to remember...millions of people were irate to the point that they boycotted Coke, started hoarding the old coke, or switched to Pepsi after the "new coke" was introduced. "New Coke" was an utter failure and didn't last long. So, are you calling McDaniels the new Bellicheck?

    New Coke
    Think about this:

    Coke introduced New Coke & everyone freaked. Broncos trade Jay Cutler, everyone freaks.

    Coke makes adjustments to the original formula and introduces Coke Classic, everyone is skeptical. Broncos make adjustments to the offense, bring in Orton, many fans are skeptical.

    Fans see that Coke Classic is good, fans are happy. We will wait to see if the tread continues (and as you know, I think it will!).
    Last edited by McSmashie; 05-27-2009, 03:46 PM.

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  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
    Small yard Smash?

    Can't get enough Bronco talk, eh? Me, too!
    Yeh, village house. Tiny yard. Price you pay for living in an old town along the Erie Canal. Great place to live though!

    I wont be here long though. Going with the boys to see Terminator Salvation tonight!

    Leave a comment:


  • broncobruj
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    acpell...

    I'm cooked. I got some yardwork done...somehow.

    I don't think any more discussion will change anything here.

    I trust you are making note of the "positivity" thing for a decent reason....not like another poster has done. Anyway, you take care. I like you, but there are times these things become tiresome.

    I believe in the direction of this team. I believe McD will be a good coach. I believe the players are happy he's here. I believe we have a strong offense that will score as much or more than last year's squad, and a much improved defense. I believe special teams will show up this year. And I believe that this Cutler thing gets us all nowhere. Unless of course people like doing that type of thing. It becomes seductive in some ways, and my error was to take part. It's an emotional thing, and those things are hard to dismiss.

    We'll talk.....
    You are absolutely correct sir...each camp is too heavily entrenched to be swayed by the other sides arguments. This is not directed at you per say, but everyone needs to be understanding of eachothers opinions on this board. They are like *******s as the old saying goes...personally, I have always enjoyed a spirited debate

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
    I apologized for assuming too much. If I was out of line, I shouldn't have been.

    However, I'm not sure of what you are disagreeing with. You quoted my post about honors going to our players, so I'll ask you... why is it okay to take something away from somebody just because they screwed up after the fact which had nothing do with their on field performance? I know that you pride yourself on positivity, but how is discrediting our teams past accomplishments so positive?

    I like Smash, we've had good debate before. It wasn't meant to be personal. It just seems as if he really feels upset about Cutler's actions. I think that's okay and it's okay to own up to it. A lot of people are upset. I am, too. I wish he had grown up a little faster to have been able to handle that situation better.
    acpell...

    I'm cooked. I got some yardwork done...somehow.

    I don't think any more discussion will change anything here.

    I trust you are making note of the "positivity" thing for a decent reason....not like another poster has done. Anyway, you take care. I like you, but there are times these things become tiresome.

    I believe in the direction of this team. I believe McD will be a good coach. I believe the players are happy he's here. I believe we have a strong offense that will score as much or more than last year's squad, and a much improved defense. I believe special teams will show up this year. And I believe that this Cutler thing gets us all nowhere. Unless of course people like doing that type of thing. It becomes seductive in some ways, and my error was to take part. It's an emotional thing, and those things are hard to dismiss.

    We'll talk.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Tremendous45th
    replied
    Originally posted by andrewmlb View Post
    Did Cutler trade himself or did the FO trade him? I was under the impression that the FO traded him. Has Anquan Boldin asked for a trade the last 2 years? Has he gotten one? If they REALLY wanted to keep him, they could've. They controlled his rights. Not Cutler. No matter what Cutler did, he still can't force a trade. People want to get traded everyday in the league, why aren't they crucified like Cutler is?
    the cutler situation and the boldin situation r different....

    boldin has teammates vouchin for him where in cutlers situation most teammates were silent....

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
    See, the opposite is true for quite a few of us out there. Ever since this whole thing started and it was uncovered that McDaniels was straight faced lying to our stud QB, I lost a lot of respect for him. Then the media storm ensued and began to feel like I couldn't trust our new coach. Then the draft came and I lost any of the little respect I had left for the guy. I always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but once the suspect draft picks kept coming I lost hope. I'll say this one last time...it isn't everyday the owner of the team comes out and questions the draft and proclaims that the shiny new coach is making rookie mistakes.
    I don't believe you or I have all the facts. Whay I saw and heard on my own, has led me to where I stand on this whole thing.

    To you and acpell.....who I have had good debates with before, I am stopping here....for now.......

    These things go way too long, and in the end, and often words are said that should have been held back.

    You can talk about lies and so on (that you believe are fact), but life goes on
    and I think we should too.

    Leave a comment:


  • acpell671
    replied
    Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
    See, the opposite is true for quite a few of us out there. Ever since this whole thing started and it was uncovered that McDaniels was straight faced lying to our stud QB, I lost a lot of respect for him. Then the media storm ensued and began to feel like I couldn't trust our new coach. Then the draft came and I lost any of the little respect I had left for the guy. I always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but once the suspect draft picks kept coming I lost hope. I'll say this one last time...it isn't everyday the owner of the team comes out and questions the draft and proclaims that the shiny new coach is making rookie mistakes.
    I do fault Cutler to some degree. I don't think he handles himself very well with the media which comes off as snobbish or arrogant sometimes.

    However, I have to agree with this post. This is exactly how I feel and have never been able to express it as well.

    I think you and Can have pretty much summed up why everyone's take on the situation is so polarizing. It's how the information is interpreted. It's too bad that we rely on Sports Journalism, which is the lowest on the totem pole, for our information.

    Good post!
    Last edited by acpell671; 05-27-2009, 02:29 PM.

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