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  • Cutler

    Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
    It is just laughable that you would think that Cutler would have trouble learning a new system when the system in place was one of the most complicated systems in the NFL... ...........

    ....Nobody has reported that Cutler asked for a new contract, this is pure speculation on your part. He was traded to the Bears with the same contract he had in Denver.

    This is another speculative post propagated by rumors that have been refuted by all of the parties involved.
    Learning a 'new' or 'different' system requires becoming familiar with new terminology. Cutler himself raised this issue, as shown by his quote. All observers recognized that there would be problems learning the new system, but this is to be expected. See the following quote from the article in which Cutler himself raises the issue of learning a new system.

    "I could see why they want Cassel. I don't know if they think I can't run the system or I don't have the skills for it.." - Jay Cutler
    Adjusting to change

    Why would the Broncos entertain trading away the one player they built their team around? As Cutler alluded to, one reason may be the new offensive system McDaniels is bringing with him from New England.

    The terminology McDaniels uses is significantly different from the West Coast playbook Mike Shanahan used the previous 14 years in Denver. It's as different as numbers and letters.

    The Patriots' offensive system asks its quarterback to make a lot of pre-snap adjustments at the line of scrimmage. The system also includes series of intricately designed pass patterns.

    "We were always making adjustments on the sidelines," Patriots receiver Wes Welker said during Super Bowl week. "As players, you have to be smart enough to understand how to get the adjustments. If you're not smart enough, you're going to have a hard time."
    Even though there are many knowledgeable observers who recognized that Cutler would have difficulty learning a new system, as anyone would (and Favre's difficulty learning the Jet's system is another example), Cutler's raising of the issue himself is an apparent attempt to insert a straw man argument concerning his intelligence to further the PR campaign Cook had started. Cook and Cutler wanted us to believe that the Broncos management considered him too dumb because it provided a reason for wanting to trade him.

    Cook uses this meme in various forms. He uses phases such as "lack of confidence" to imply that the Broncos considered Cutler somehow inadequate, despite the insistence by McDaniels that Cutler would "do well" in his system, which was part of McDaniels' efforts to knock down this issue.

    Cook's MO is to create the impression of an aggrieved client who has suffered a slight, and then use the issue of the slight to create the impression of irreconcilable differences that can't be repaired. Cook and his high profile clients repeatedly claim to want to work out differences with management but are somehow prevented from doing this because of this mysterious slight. Unlike other disagreements between players and management, where both sides agree on the facts in question if not the solution, in situations involving Cook neither side can agree on many of the pertinent facts. And in the case of Cutler and the Broncos, Cutler and Cook repeatedly claim that Broncos want to trade him while the Broncos repeatedly say they do not and want to work to resolve their differences.

    The only source of information regarding the slight that Cutler is purported to have suffered comes only from Cutler and Cook. And they repeatedly state that this is the reason that Cutler is unable work with McDaniels. There is no evidence of a disagreement of any sort between McDaniels and Cutler outside of the PR campaign in which Cutler repeatedly invokes the meme that McDaniels lacks confidence in him. The only evidence of any disagreement between the Broncos and Cutler consists of Cutler's and Cook's repeated insistence that there is one.

    Regarding the contract issue; Stephan Fatsis reports this:

    What I know based on talking to some of my former Broncos colleagues is that, well before this drama erupted, Cook and Cutler wanted to renegotiate the quarterback’s six-year contract, which has three years left. The current deal included $15 million in guaranteed payments. Cutler was paid a $1.275 million roster bonus in 2006 and a $7.9 million option bonus in 2007. But his base salaries are, by Pro Bowl-quarterback standards, meager, and a $12 million performance bonus isn’t due until 2011.
    And also:

    Ted Sundquist, the Broncos’ general manager when I was with the team, told me at the time that, because of the large lump-sum, back-end payout, the contract would probably be restructured before it expires. He said Bus Cook also expected that to happen. Did Cutler and Cook manufacture their hurt feelings over McDaniels’s trade talks and the coach’s subsequent ineffectual spin in an effort to get a new contract now, or get to another city that would give them one? I don’t know. But they certainly saw an opening.
    There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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    • Originally posted by colinski View Post

      Learning a 'new' or 'different' system requires becoming familiar with new terminology. Cutler himself raised this issue, as shown by his quote. All observers recognized that there would be problems learning the new system, but this is to be expected. See the following quote from the article in which Cutler himself raises the issue of learning a new system.


      Quote:
      "I could see why they want Cassel. I don't know if they think I can't run the system or I don't have the skills for it.." - Jay Cutler
      Quote:
      Adjusting to change

      Why would the Broncos entertain trading away the one player they built their team around? As Cutler alluded to, one reason may be the new offensive system McDaniels is bringing with him from New England.

      The terminology McDaniels uses is significantly different from the West Coast playbook Mike Shanahan used the previous 14 years in Denver. It's as different as numbers and letters.

      The Patriots' offensive system asks its quarterback to make a lot of pre-snap adjustments at the line of scrimmage. The system also includes series of intricately designed pass patterns.

      "We were always making adjustments on the sidelines," Patriots receiver Wes Welker said during Super Bowl week. "As players, you have to be smart enough to understand how to get the adjustments. If you're not smart enough, you're going to have a hard time."
      Hmmm... I don't know if I would consider that Cutler raising the issue. It seems more speculation on his part on why they may have wanted Cassel. The second I would say is definately not something raised by Cutler... just what people say about the system. It's a far cry from saying "I don't know if I can learn this."



      Originally posted by colinski View Post
      Even though there are many knowledgeable observers who recognized that Cutler would have difficulty learning a new system, as anyone would (and Favre's difficulty learning the Jet's system is another example), Cutler's raising of the issue himself is an apparent attempt to insert a straw man argument concerning his intelligence to further the PR campaign Cook had started. Cook and Cutler wanted us to believe that the Broncos management considered him too dumb because it provided a reason for wanting to trade him.
      Jay was asked why he was involved in trade talks... that was what he said. He also said he wonders if they thought they couldn't negotiate a new contract. McDaniels wasn't saying anything about why he wanted that trade... Jay was asked the question and he gave a speculative answer. Hence the "I don't know" qualifying the statement made afterwards. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3944555


      Originally posted by colinski View Post
      Cook uses this meme in various forms. He uses phases such as "lack of confidence" to imply that the Broncos considered Cutler somehow inadequate, despite the insistence by McDaniels that Cutler would "do well" in his system, which was part of McDaniels' efforts to knock down this issue.
      That seems to be a reach based on the quoted statement.

      Originally posted by colinski View Post
      Cook's MO is to create the impression of an aggrieved client who has suffered a slight, and then use the issue of the slight to create the impression of irreconcilable differences that can't be repaired. Cook and his high profile clients repeatedly claim to want to work out differences with management but are somehow prevented from doing this because of this mysterious slight. Unlike other disagreements between players and management, where both sides agree on the facts in question if not the solution, in situations involving Cook neither side can agree on many of the pertinent facts. And in the case of Cutler and the Broncos, Cutler and Cook repeatedly claim that Broncos want to trade him while the Broncos repeatedly say they do not and want to work to resolve their differences.
      I would say that Cutler had suffered a slight. It wasn't a fabricated impression... it is what had happened. Cook's history as an agent isn't what you nor some Packer fans would have you believe. Some of the more high profile players he represents include Randy Moss, Steve McNair, Calvin Johnson, and Michael Turner. None of them have really had these issues. It's like you are saying this was manufactured. Bus Cook did not make the Broncos get involved in these trade talks anymore than he made the Packers say that they wanted to move on with Aaron Rodgers. These things did happen.

      Originally posted by colinski View Post
      The only source of information regarding the slight that Cutler is purported to have suffered comes only from Cutler and Cook. And they repeatedly state that this is the reason that Cutler is unable work with McDaniels. There is no evidence of a disagreement of any sort between McDaniels and Cutler outside of the PR campaign in which Cutler repeatedly invokes the meme that McDaniels lacks confidence in him. The only evidence of any disagreement between the Broncos and Cutler consists of Cutler's and Cook's repeated insistence that there is one.
      Well McDaniels said he just answered the phone. Then it turns out to be more than that. It has been reported ad nauseum how they did try to trade him.

      Originally posted by colinski View Post
      Regarding the contract issue; Stephan Fatsis reports this:


      Quote:
      What I know based on talking to some of my former Broncos colleagues is that, well before this drama erupted, Cook and Cutler wanted to renegotiate the quarterback’s six-year contract, which has three years left. The current deal included $15 million in guaranteed payments. Cutler was paid a $1.275 million roster bonus in 2006 and a $7.9 million option bonus in 2007. But his base salaries are, by Pro Bowl-quarterback standards, meager, and a $12 million performance bonus isn’t due until 2011.
      And also:


      Quote:
      Ted Sundquist, the Broncos’ general manager when I was with the team, told me at the time that, because of the large lump-sum, back-end payout, the contract would probably be restructured before it expires. He said Bus Cook also expected that to happen. Did Cutler and Cook manufacture their hurt feelings over McDaniels’s trade talks and the coach’s subsequent ineffectual spin in an effort to get a new contract now, or get to another city that would give them one? I don’t know. But they certainly saw an opening.
      I don't doubt he would like more money. We all would.
      Understand that I am a Bears fan but also that I have followed Orton's career. His ability to improve himself makes him a very easy guy to cheer for. I am here because I will continue to cheer for Orton unless his success interferes with the success of the Bears.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by colinski View Post
        Learning a 'new' or 'different' system requires becoming familiar with new terminology. Cutler himself raised this issue, as shown by his quote. All observers recognized that there would be problems learning the new system, but this is to be expected. See the following quote from the article in which Cutler himself raises the issue of learning a new system.




        Even though there are many knowledgeable observers who recognized that Cutler would have difficulty learning a new system, as anyone would (and Favre's difficulty learning the Jet's system is another example), Cutler's raising of the issue himself is an apparent attempt to insert a straw man argument concerning his intelligence to further the PR campaign Cook had started. Cook and Cutler wanted us to believe that the Broncos management considered him too dumb because it provided a reason for wanting to trade him.

        Cook uses this meme in various forms. He uses phases such as "lack of confidence" to imply that the Broncos considered Cutler somehow inadequate, despite the insistence by McDaniels that Cutler would "do well" in his system, which was part of McDaniels' efforts to knock down this issue.

        Cook's MO is to create the impression of an aggrieved client who has suffered a slight, and then use the issue of the slight to create the impression of irreconcilable differences that can't be repaired. Cook and his high profile clients repeatedly claim to want to work out differences with management but are somehow prevented from doing this because of this mysterious slight. Unlike other disagreements between players and management, where both sides agree on the facts in question if not the solution, in situations involving Cook neither side can agree on many of the pertinent facts. And in the case of Cutler and the Broncos, Cutler and Cook repeatedly claim that Broncos want to trade him while the Broncos repeatedly say they do not and want to work to resolve their differences.

        The only source of information regarding the slight that Cutler is purported to have suffered comes only from Cutler and Cook. And they repeatedly state that this is the reason that Cutler is unable work with McDaniels. There is no evidence of a disagreement of any sort between McDaniels and Cutler outside of the PR campaign in which Cutler repeatedly invokes the meme that McDaniels lacks confidence in him. The only evidence of any disagreement between the Broncos and Cutler consists of Cutler's and Cook's repeated insistence that there is one.

        Regarding the contract issue; Stephan Fatsis reports this:



        And also:
        GO read the thread about Bowlens interview It would seem to debunk everything you are talking about. The only thing Bowlen said that had a negative conotation to it was Jay had an "agenda". Jays agenda it seemed was to get as far away from what he saw as a train wreck as fast a possible.
        My friends over at Sports Radio Interviews sent me a link to an interview Pat Bowlen did with a Chicago-area radio station. While there is nothing earth-shattering here. Below is a segment of the transcript -

        What are the Bears getting in Jay Cutler?

        “They’re getting an extremely talented young quarterback.”


        Some one Please name me the last successful NFL QB that had to be taught how to throw the ball correctly.

        Comment


        • Josh McDaniels traded Jay Cutler..... unfortunately.

          Comment


          • Yawn. What a long thread to reach an obvious conclusion. The Denver Broncos as an organization traded Jay Cutler. We all have opinions on why that occurred.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by psychobear View Post
              Bus Cook did not make the Broncos get involved in these trade talks anymore than he made the Packers say that they wanted to move on with Aaron Rodgers. These things did happen.
              No Bus Cook didn't have anything to do with getting the Broncos involved in trade talks. Be he DID get involved in how Cutler RESPONDED to it.

              Okay question here. Didn't Cutler at one point after Jeremy Bates was fired request a trade? I know it has been reported on ESPN radio discussing the Cutler saga, that he was said to have requested a trade after finding out Jeremy was gone and Bowlen had gone against what he had already told Jay that he would keep Jeremy. Is this true or not? I heard this was supposed to have upset Jay to begin with and was the very first word of wanting out of Denver. Is this true?
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Blitzmaster View Post
                No Bus Cook didn't have anything to do with getting the Broncos involved in trade talks. Be he DID get involved in how Cutler RESPONDED to it.

                Okay question here. Didn't Cutler at one point after Jeremy Bates was fired request a trade? I know it has been reported on ESPN radio discussing the Cutler saga, that he was said to have requested a trade after finding out Jeremy was gone and Bowlen had gone against what he had already told Jay that he would keep Jeremy. Is this true or not? I heard this was supposed to have upset Jay to begin with and was the very first word of wanting out of Denver. Is this true?


                No he didnt. BOTH sides completely deny this. Jay even came to Denver to go over things for about two weeks before this disaster.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by nea View Post
                  [/B]

                  No he didnt. BOTH sides completely deny this. Jay even came to Denver to go over things for about two weeks before this disaster.
                  Im sorry, but none of this "He Said, She Said" stuff really matters anymore.

                  Cutler is gone and he aint coming back. Time to move on. Whatever happened, happened and is completely irrelevant at this point.
                  sigpic

                  I adopt andrewmlb.

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                  • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                    Im sorry, but none of this "He Said, She Said" stuff really matters anymore.

                    Cutler is gone and he aint coming back. Time to move on. Whatever happened, happened and is completely irrelevant at this point.
                    For the millionth time...This was the biggest NFL trade in over a decade and will not go away for a long time, especially if Cutler has success in Chi-town. I suggest you either stay away from threads of this nature, or get over it yourself...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
                      For the millionth time...This was the biggest NFL trade in over a decade and will not go away for a long time, especially if Cutler has success in Chi-town. I suggest you either stay away from threads of this nature, or get over it yourself...
                      Oh, please, let me check myself out then. You showed me.

                      Ok, now onto my REAL post:

                      When you take personal shots at someone as part of your debate, it only cheapens what you have to say and costs you your credibility. Because with my opening line, most people have no interest in any of the points I have to make. Make your argument without the snarkiness and maybe more people will listen to you.

                      Its the biggest trade because free agency took away big trades. They just dont happen anymore. So when a trade happens, it is gigantic news. This isnt a huge trade to anyone outside of Chicago and Denver fans. Chicagos offense isnt suddenly Colt-like because of the addition of Cutler. They still have practically no offensive pieces besides Forte around him. And Denver suddenly isnt the London Silly Nannies because of Orton. Denver has a solid offense and Orton has a winning record with a team with no offense to speak us.

                      As far as it not going away, it would if the posters would let go of the past. Are you still harping on the Portis/Champ trade? No, it worked out well for us. After that trade, everyone said the sky was falling as well and we would never recover.

                      Cutler is one player. And we got many quality players back in return to plug many of the holes in our team.
                      Last edited by McSmashie; 05-24-2009, 11:21 AM.
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                      I adopt andrewmlb.

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                      • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                        Oh, please, let me check myself out then. You showed me.

                        Ok, now onto my REAL post:

                        When you take personal shots at someone as part of your debate, it only cheapens what you have to say and costs you your credibility. Make your argument without the snarkiness and maybe more people will listen to you.

                        Its the biggest trade because free agency took away big trades. They just dont happen anymore. So when a trade happens, it is gigantic news. This isnt a huge trade to anyone outside of Chicago and Denver fans.

                        Heck, most teams fans said they didnt even want Cutler.

                        As far as it not going away, it would if the posters would let go of the past. Are you still harping on the Portis/Champ trade? No, it worked out well for us. After that trade, everyone said the sky was falling as well and we would never recover.

                        Cutler is one player. And we got many quality players back in return to plug many of the holes in our team.
                        Smashie, you have no room for talking about taking shots at someone. Do I need to bring up every post about me with you talking smack? Cloud of Darkness remind you of anything?

                        Second, about the portis/champ trade, good RBs are a dime a dozen, franchise QBs, not so much. Comparing Cutler and Portis is like apples and oranges.
                        I adopt Peanut, mod of the stars
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                        • I've just cleaned this thread again.

                          It probably needed a more thorough cleaning than even I gave it.

                          If someone can't make a post without being nasty to someone else, they shouldn't post. That'll spare the community the stress, the mods the time, and the poster the infraction.

                          Those that can't carry on a discussion maturely should probably avoid this thread.

                          Comment


                          • in the end this trade is on mcd.he initiated the issue and then made it worse with his dishonesty.no doubt cutler handled the whole thing in an immature fashion but was i the only who found mcd to be smug,arrogant and insincere when he was talking about wanting"the player"back after the whole mess blew up in his face.he remained arrogant and unbending to the very end.the slightest bit of effort to show even a little bit of deference to "the player"would probably have fixed the issue.as i recall even in his last interviews before the trade mcd was saying how cutler needed to change his perspective and was in the wrong in his patriot double speak way.this is a fiasco caused by an inexperienced arrogant young coach who refused to defer in the slightest to a player who he should have and we would still have a star qb.im not saying he needed to kiss cutlers ass but go back to the interviews mcd did near the end and put yourself in cutlers shoes and ask yourself how much trust you could put in this smug little individual.add that to what was a risky draft between the lack of front 7 and the trade of what could be a very premium pick and what you have is a coach who damn well better prove to be as smart as he thinks he is or all of us in 6 months are going to be tearing up these boards about how mcd came in and destroyed our beloved team.THE PRESSURE IS ON LITTLE MAN to say the least and you need to win relatively quickly or it will be anarchy both in the locker room and with the fan base.as a 33 year bronco fan this post felt like threrapy so thanks to all you fellow bronco fans for allowing me to vent my pent up rage at this mess on these boards.may i be as wrong as the day is long and have us win the sb and mcd prove to be a genius.im just not betting the house on it.go broncos!
                            SBXXXII SBXXXIII

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                              Oh, please, let me check myself out then. You showed me.

                              Ok, now onto my REAL post:

                              When you take personal shots at someone as part of your debate, it only cheapens what you have to say and costs you your credibility. Because with my opening line, most people have no interest in any of the points I have to make. Make your argument without the snarkiness and maybe more people will listen to you.

                              Its the biggest trade because free agency took away big trades. They just dont happen anymore. So when a trade happens, it is gigantic news. This isnt a huge trade to anyone outside of Chicago and Denver fans. Chicagos offense isnt suddenly Colt-like because of the addition of Cutler. They still have practically no offensive pieces besides Forte around him. And Denver suddenly isnt the London Silly Nannies because of Orton. Denver has a solid offense and Orton has a winning record with a team with no offense to speak us.

                              As far as it not going away, it would if the posters would let go of the past. Are you still harping on the Portis/Champ trade? No, it worked out well for us. After that trade, everyone said the sky was falling as well and we would never recover.

                              Cutler is one player. And we got many quality players back in return to plug many of the holes in our team.
                              I never take potshots at people except for those that keep telling us "disgruntled" Bronco fans to get over it. I'm tired of people like you saying that I'm not a true fan because I disagree with how things have gone down this offseason, or telling me to move on, or get over it...from the trade to the draft, I have seen nothing but suspect moves that worry me about our future...I have as much right as you do to voice my opinion. As was stated by the mods for a thread to the "positive" posters...either debate the issue at hand, or don't bother posting. I want to hear your opinions, just don't tell me to "get over it", or "move on"...

                              As for this not mattering to anyone outside of Denver or Chicago...how many weeks was this headline news on ESPN and NFLN? It matters because the rest of the country is still scratching their heads over this...

                              How much was the Champ/Portis trade talked about? Not anywhere near as much as this has been...at least not in the national sports news arena...

                              Comment


                              • Its been talked to death, but when I was with my friends last night back from college it was brought up. When I was asked I said, "This is going to be the biggest mistake this team has ever made EVER!" and I stand by it, I really do. You dont give up a player like Cutler, ya I know he did not deserver to go to the pro bowl, ya I know he was somewhat a baby when he wanted to be traded when Bates left and when he did not return calls or text, ya I know for 2 and a half years he has been shaky but I had all the faith in the world he would get better and be one of the best. The funny thing is before everybody turn there back on him he loved it here.

                                McD had me fired up when we got Dawkins, but that fire has never came back and yes I know its only May. I will never fully understand why McD wanted Cassell over Jay, thats were he lost me and not to mention the shaky draft we had this year. Its sort of sading has a big bronco fan that I am and I will always stand by my team, I could not be less excited for the broncos this year, and again yes I know its may. I will start to worry when it’s July and I am not pumped. For the people that say "get over it!" this conversation is going to be around for a while so "get use to it".

                                Also for the people called him a baby or a *****, his doing everything right in Chicago. his not acting like a baby or a brat he is being what a 25 year old acts. and this is going to be wrong because Iam a broncos fan but when I saw him talking about the Chicago Bears this up-coming season he got my fired up, but then I remembered he is not a Bronco no more, that hurt.

                                I will post a thread when/if Cutler is ripping it up in Chicago, and the title will be “so we traded this guy? Smart move”

                                oh and who traded him was the city of Denver the the Denver Broncos front office and Josh.

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