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  • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
    Oh, please, let me check myself out then. You showed me.

    Ok, now onto my REAL post:

    When you take personal shots at someone as part of your debate, it only cheapens what you have to say and costs you your credibility. Because with my opening line, most people have no interest in any of the points I have to make. Make your argument without the snarkiness and maybe more people will listen to you.

    Its the biggest trade because free agency took away big trades. They just dont happen anymore. So when a trade happens, it is gigantic news. This isnt a huge trade to anyone outside of Chicago and Denver fans. Chicagos offense isnt suddenly Colt-like because of the addition of Cutler. They still have practically no offensive pieces besides Forte around him. And Denver suddenly isnt the London Silly Nannies because of Orton. Denver has a solid offense and Orton has a winning record with a team with no offense to speak us.

    As far as it not going away, it would if the posters would let go of the past. Are you still harping on the Portis/Champ trade? No, it worked out well for us. After that trade, everyone said the sky was falling as well and we would never recover.

    Cutler is one player. And we got many quality players back in return to plug many of the holes in our team.
    its not a matter of letting the past be the past as i have read in so many posts here.when a trade of this magnitude and this contraversial takes place it is going to remain front and center for quite some time no matter how badly we as bronco fans wish to make it go away.debating trades is a sporting fan tradition that goes back to day 1 and not even one game has been played yet so like it or not both locally and nationally this will remain a major topic for the forseeable future.and as it should.this coach deserves to have his feet held to the fire because rarely if ever has a qb so young and of such stature been moved like this.our teams entire future rides on the outcome so lets be realistic and deal with the fact that qb is still the most important position on the field to fill and we have taken an unprecedented gamble here.
    SBXXXII SBXXXIII

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    • Originally posted by psychobear View Post
      I've always said that you can gain a lot more insight about what is going on behind the scenes by looking at the actions more than what the words they say.

      So what are the actions of the front office.
      1. They got rid of the coaches that Cutler had requested stay after telling him they would be allowed to stay.
      2. Their first action was to attemt a trade for a different QB sending Cutler out of town. I'll add that this QB in Cassel was the head coach's pet project.
      3. They lied and got caught in their lie about the trade talks.
      4. They arranged a meeting to talk things out.
      5. They stated that the meeting went well.
      6. They put Cutler on the open market.
      7. They traded Cutler.

      The actions of Jay Cutler and Cook.
      1. Requested that his QB coach stay.
      2. Let the media in on the trade talks after discovering them.
      3. Flew in to discuss everything.
      4. Told the media they were not happy after the meeting.
      5. Cut off communication with the team.
      6. Requested a trade.

      None of the actions by either side indicate that money was the issue here. What you see from the Denver front office is that they lied to Jay 2 times. What is the reason for being deceptive? It doesn't seem that building around Jay Cutler was a priority for them although they wanted that to be the perception. Based on their actions... they were consistent all the way through to fit that theory.

      What about Jay... Well his actions seem to say that he wanted to stick around. He requested the QB coach remain because he wanted to stay. He flew in to meet with them (note they did not fly out to him... they flew him in). Those are the signs of someone who wants to resolve things. Something clearly happened during the meeting that we weren't told about. I would guess, that the fact that building around Jay wasn't a priority, was confirmed. After that... his actions changed. That was the issue... not money... not his QB coach going elseware... not even McDaniels just plain being shady.

      I don't get why people really blame Jay. After it was made clear that the Bronco's were not committed to him... he made it clear that he was no longer committed to them. If they wanted to hold on to Jay they could have done some things differently. I do believe that if they offered him a huge contract... it could have changed things. Why? Because that is an action that shows committment to him.
      QFT - I would also like to add a couple of thoughts to your post.
      The coach wanted Jay to commit to the team but when asked directly about whether or not Jay was the future qb for him the coach replied he didn't know because no one can predict the future and I imagine that this is what happened in the "meeting". Last point here. If the trade for the pet project had gone through Denver would have been paying the new qb 14million a year right? Now add to that the signing of Simms to a 3 year 6 million dollar contract as a back up! How much will Jay make this year?

      Comment


      • Cutler's character - an inauthentic performance

        Originally posted by RealityBytes
        Good post.

        I really wonder, who is the real "baby" here. Chippy fans who love-hate things like a psycho movie, or the guy who donated boatloads of cash and time to a diabetes foundation, played his guts out for them, and then was treated like a junkyard dog by McCoach, McOwner, and McFans?

        Jay Cutler is a class act.

        The rest of the NFL is finding out just exactly what Bronco "fans" are.
        We can agree that Cutler's charity work is laudable. Many players do charity work to improve their image but Cutler goes far beyond image-polishing in his efforts.

        A black-and-white thinker or someone with a Manichean worldview might attempt to fit people into one of two camps but people are complex, and there's often good and bad present in a person's character.

        Other than being a Broncos quarterback, which automatically bestows popularity from Broncos fans, Cutler wasn't particularly well liked by his teammates, although he was generally recognized as a good teammate who was willing to work on making the Broncos a better team. Cutler's personality was the source of some friction with his teammates. Most people didn't know Cutler so their opinions, whether pro or con, aren't usually well-informed. Their appraisals of Cutler are merely a restatement of their attitudes towards the Broncos as a whole, but Cutler's teammates didn't suffer from this symbolic myopia.

        Stephan Fatsis, once a Bronco, writes this of Cutler:

        I met Cutler when he was the first-round draft choice in 2006 who was expected to ride the bench for a couple of years behind Jake Plummer and then lead Denver for a decade or more. The new Elway! Finally! But Cutler is virtually absent from my book. That’s because he was uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally. I sought out players who thought deeply and were interested in explaining the physical and emotional realities of playing in the NFL. That wasn’t Cutler. His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure. Since then, I’ve received unflattering reports about his behavior and indifferent-to-negative ones about his relationship with his teammates.
        Public presentations of the self aren't good barometers of an individual, because people practice "impression management" in order to cultivate an impression. The social self is frequently at odds with the private self that is known by friends, family and confidants. An obvious example of this idea is an overly friendly car salesman who postures in order to gain a sale. Few of us would confuse the car salesman's friendliness with an authentic interest in us personally even though he might adopt the persona of a friend who is concerned with our personal welfare.

        The field of Public Relations (PR) concerns itself with impression management in the public sphere whereas areas of sociology are concerned with individual aspects of impression management and the public's willingness to believe in 'stories' despite factual evidence to the contrary.

        Performances, or presentations of the self, that reveal their inauthentic nature are known as "stigmatized" performances. A car salesman who inadvertently reveals his disinterest in his customer's personal affairs risks losing a sale because of a stigmatized performance. It reveals the true motive behind his friendliness. He doesn't care about his customer but cares instead about making a sale. His friendly posture is a mere act designed to improve his chances of making a sale.

        Much of PR campaign by Cutler and his agent, James 'Bus' Cook, suffers from stigma, although much of it was also expertly done. Cook, a personal injury lawyer, specializes in creating the impression of an aggrieved victim, which is the technique that personal injury lawyers use to increase court awards to their clients in recompense for damages.

        Cutler and Cook appear together in a press conference shortly after news of trade talks involving Cutler breaks to announce Cutler's status as an aggrieved victim. The routine occurrence of trade talks has 'hurt' Cutler emotionally and constitutes a 'harm' to his ability to continue as a Bronco. Aspects of Cook and Cutler's case often look more like something out of divorce court since the estrangement that Cutler purportedly suffers is more like "alienation of affection," which is used is a legal justification for granting a divorce.

        The entire Cutler-gate controversy consists of little more than a page out of a personal injury trial or divorce court. Cutler presents himself as a victim who's astonished that the Broncos could treat him this way. Alternately, the crime is either an alienation of affection which has severed the bond that Cutler has with his teammates or an injury that has permanently impaired his ability to function as the Broncos' quarterback. The harm is obviously more psychological than physical but the damage in no less real.

        Despite the willingness of much of the fan base to eat up this courtroom melodrama, there are indications of stigma. Cutler's claim of a harm rests on a portrayal of a team willing to trade him, but the separation between the team and Cutler is entirely because of Cutler. After the press conference in which he announces his grievance, he leaves for Tennessee and refuses contact. His behavior resembles that of a wife who has caught her husband cheating. Cutler can't bring himself to forgive the Broncos for 'cheating' on him and needs time to ponder his feelings. He doesn't know if he'll appear at mini-camp yet but he eventually agrees -- reluctantly -- to talk about his feelings with McDaniels.

        The meeting doesn't go well, from Cutler's perspective. The Broncos see things differently. McDaniels sees a positive meeting. Cutler, on the other hand, decides the marriage is over. The unrepentant cheater, McDaniels, is still unrepentant. The only solution is a divorce. From a divorce court perspective this makes sense, but this is not divorce court. Cutler's solution to the problem looks exactly like the problem itself.

        Part of the problem with this melodrama is that Cutler was the first to cheat, so to speak. And the marriage between Cutler and the Broncos ended when Shanahan was fired and Bates left, not when trade talks occurred. Cutler demands to be traded at this point. When asked about whether Cutler had demanded a trade after Bates left, Cook gives a deceptive reply -- "not that I know of." There's a problem here. 'Yes' and 'no' are the only two permitted answers to a yes or no question but Cook has given us a third, which is a combination of "I don't know" and "no." When asked about Cutler's trade demands again, Cook gives yet another and quite deceptive response, that he [Cook] didn't formally ask for a trade on Cutler's behalf.

        Cook has formally requested a trade on Cutler's behalf, but contrary to reports, he says he didn't immediately demand that his client be traded.

        "Jay met with the coach early on and then told me everything was going to be OK. He said, 'We are going to work this out; we are on the same wavelength.' Everything was fine until Saturday two weeks ago," Cook told NFL.com.
        The problem here is that it was Cutler not Cook who asked for the trade. Cook hasn't refuted the report that Cutler asked to be traded, he's merely changing the subject, just as before. He's answering a different question. There's also a problem with "formally ask," does this mean there was an 'informal' request for a trade? Moreover, what was being "worked out?" Was there a trade request early on and then a reconciliation in which Cutler and McDaniels agreed to work on their troubled marriage?

        Cutler's performance during this controversy is even more stigmatized than Cook's dissembling. When repeated attempts by the Broncos, reporters and teammates to contact him go unanswered, Cutler claims that no attempts were made. Cutler's story changes at this point, when it's revealed that Cutler's grievance had less to do with trade talk than Bowlen's failure to live up to assurances to keep the offensive coaching staff intact. Bowlen responds by essentially calling Cutler a liar. When news of his trade reaches him he reacts by high fiving his friends in jubilation but tells the Denver media -- astonishingly -- that he actually didn't want the trade that he himself had requested.

        Calling Cutler a "class act" is half right. "Class" doesn't come to mind when observing his performance but "act" certainly does.
        There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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        • Originally posted by broncobruj View Post
          I never take potshots at people except for those that keep telling us "disgruntled" Bronco fans to get over it. I'm tired of people like you saying that I'm not a true fan because I disagree with how things have gone down this offseason, or telling me to move on, or get over it...from the trade to the draft, I have seen nothing but suspect moves that worry me about our future...I have as much right as you do to voice my opinion. As was stated by the mods for a thread to the "positive" posters...either debate the issue at hand, or don't bother posting. I want to hear your opinions, just don't tell me to "get over it", or "move on"...

          As for this not mattering to anyone outside of Denver or Chicago...how many weeks was this headline news on ESPN and NFLN? It matters because the rest of the country is still scratching their heads over this...

          How much was the Champ/Portis trade talked about? Not anywhere near as much as this has been...at least not in the national sports news arena...
          I called you not a true fan? Please point out where in my posts that I said you werent a true fan.

          As for debating the issue at hand, I was. But not any longer. This is a redundant argument about something that has no meaning any longer. Might as well argue over Reaganomics, the DeLorean, and Jesus Jones. So Im out. Have fun!
          Last edited by McSmashie; 05-24-2009, 07:55 PM.
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          • Originally posted by mdaver View Post
            its not a matter of letting the past be the past as i have read in so many posts here.when a trade of this magnitude and this contraversial takes place it is going to remain front and center for quite some time no matter how badly we as bronco fans wish to make it go away.debating trades is a sporting fan tradition that goes back to day 1 and not even one game has been played yet so like it or not both locally and nationally this will remain a major topic for the forseeable future.and as it should.this coach deserves to have his feet held to the fire because rarely if ever has a qb so young and of such stature been moved like this.our teams entire future rides on the outcome so lets be realistic and deal with the fact that qb is still the most important position on the field to fill and we have taken an unprecedented gamble here.
            There is a huge difference between debating a trade and crying "WE ARE NEVER GOING TO WIN EVER EVER EVER AGAIN" like oh so many people are doing.
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            • Originally posted by andrewmlb View Post
              Smashie, you have no room for talking about taking shots at someone. Do I need to bring up every post about me with you talking smack? Cloud of Darkness remind you of anything?

              Second, about the portis/champ trade, good RBs are a dime a dozen, franchise QBs, not so much. Comparing Cutler and Portis is like apples and oranges.
              Hey Andrew, I thought you knew I was joking around with you. I never meant any of that seriously. And if you took it that way, I really apologize. We had alot of jokes going back and forth and I truly thought you knew I wasnt serious.

              So, again, my apologies.
              Last edited by McSmashie; 05-24-2009, 07:08 PM.
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              • Originally posted by Blitzmaster View Post
                No Bus Cook didn't have anything to do with getting the Broncos involved in trade talks. Be he DID get involved in how Cutler RESPONDED to it.

                Okay question here. Didn't Cutler at one point after Jeremy Bates was fired request a trade? I know it has been reported on ESPN radio discussing the Cutler saga, that he was said to have requested a trade after finding out Jeremy was gone and Bowlen had gone against what he had already told Jay that he would keep Jeremy. Is this true or not? I heard this was supposed to have upset Jay to begin with and was the very first word of wanting out of Denver. Is this true?
                Hopefully this doesn't come off as condescending but it seems naive to think that Jay's response would have been drastically different with a different agent. I don't think that this is something that was overblown either. When the story first broke the perception by most out there was that McDaniels got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. A little later some people weren't so enamored with some of Jay's actions such as demanding a trade and cutting off communication... but right at the beginning most understood why Jay was upset.

                As far as the other question... both sides denied that Jay requested a trade after Jeremy was ousted.
                Understand that I am a Bears fan but also that I have followed Orton's career. His ability to improve himself makes him a very easy guy to cheer for. I am here because I will continue to cheer for Orton unless his success interferes with the success of the Bears.

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                • Originally posted by colinski View Post

                  Calling Cutler a "class act" is half right. "Class" doesn't come to mind when observing his performance but "act" certainly does.
                  I thought I bascily tore apart this same argument on the last page.

                  First of all... Stefan Fatsis? This dude was never a Denver Bronco. He is a writer born in 1963. At the age of 43 he was given the privledge by the Denver Broncos to participate in training camp for the purpose of writing about his experience. http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=15302

                  The guy was never a true teammate. In fact, his goal with joining the team was purely from a journalistic perspective. Reread the quote you put there...
                  I met Cutler when he was the first-round draft choice in 2006 who was expected to ride the bench for a couple of years behind Jake Plummer and then lead Denver for a decade or more. The new Elway! Finally! But Cutler is virtually absent from my book. That’s because he was uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally. I sought out players who thought deeply and were interested in explaining the physical and emotional realities of playing in the NFL. That wasn’t Cutler. His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure. Since then, I’ve received unflattering reports about his behavior and indifferent-to-negative ones about his relationship with his teammates.
                  Translated it means "the guy wouldn't give me a story." It doesn't sound like he at all bregrudges him for that though... as i would never expect a guy who doesn't get what he wants to at all have any sour grapes.

                  Furthermore, Jay is a QB. One thing that has been discussed to a great deal is his leadership ability. That's the thing though... as a QB he is a leader. Part of being a leader is rubbing people the wrong way. it comes with the territory.

                  Now you are on to basicly turning this whole PR battle into a trial. The perception YOU are trying to create is that of a circus act. Here is the thing though... thsoe personal injury lawyers are out there for a reason. Some people certainly do take advantage of the system. They go into court with a neck brace after an accident and ask for millions from an insurance company. However, others have suffered very real injury and very real losses from the actions of others. The entire system exists for those people... not the fakers... and the majority of cases out there are probably legitimate victims rather than people looking for an easy handout even though the fakers get more press.

                  Now... Cutler was the first to "cheat." That doesn't fly with me. Even if he did demand a trade at that point in time, in reality he was lied to which prompted that. The only guy that seems to believe that the request was made was Peter King of sports illustrated. However, ESPN states that Cutler denies it.
                  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805
                  http://blogs.usatoday.com/thehuddle/...s-owner-1.html
                  In this second article you can also see that Bowlen said he didn't recall the incident. I believe he woudl remember something like Cutler asking for a trade there. The Broncos had never stated that Culter requested a trade there... it would surely make them look better yet the only guy mentioning it is Peter King.

                  So that's the whole issue right there. There was a rocky start right there but nothing really blew up until the trade talks. It was the trade talks that initiated everything... not the Bates incident. If that were true, then right off the bat when the issue of trade talks were mentioned then McDaniels would answer "well Jay had requested a trade." The mud in his eye would suddenly clear. That didn't happen.

                  As to the second part... the article where Jay said he really didn't want all of that to happen... well that's not really any evidence either way. That's him coming out and saying that he didn't want this whole thing to happen... that's it. The quote...
                  "I was surprised they decided to trade me this soon," Cutler told FoxSports. "I didn't want to get traded. That wasn't me. They had been going back and forth saying things, wanting me to be their quarterback, and then they didn't. I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I really like my teammates. I didn't want it to get this far."
                  He isn't denying anything there... just saying that he doesn't like how everything happened. At that point... what would even be the reason? The trade already happened.

                  Again... your argument falls apart. Just like on the last page when you said it was all about the contract and that Jay was saying he was too dumb to work in the offense. Just a bunch of hearsay and things taken completely out of context.

                  At the heart of these arguments where you paint the perception that the whole thing was just an act... is if the Broncos actually did anything wrong. I believe everyone says that they did. Some here may believe that Jay was more in the wrong but not 1 person is under the impression that the front office was blameless. Just because his behavior is that of a person who was wronged by the organization doesn't mean that this behavior is a show put on for the media like the guy in the neckbrace.
                  Understand that I am a Bears fan but also that I have followed Orton's career. His ability to improve himself makes him a very easy guy to cheer for. I am here because I will continue to cheer for Orton unless his success interferes with the success of the Bears.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                    Hey Andrew, I thought you knew I was joking around with you. I never meant any of that seriously. And if you took it that way, I really apologize. We had alot of jokes going back and forth and I truly thought you knew I wasnt serious.

                    So, again, my apologies.
                    It's all good then. You and the Can guy team up together and don't share any of the breakfast waffles. Since I know it all in fun, I'm down with that, we've had really good dialog in the past and look forward to disagreeing with you in the future.
                    To many more debates in the future
                    I adopt Peanut, mod of the stars
                    I adopt Brakshow, you mess with him, you answer to me
                    I adopt PAINTERDAVE, my conservative elephant
                    "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry." -James 1
                    God Bless Our Troops!!!!!
                    Adopted by the Greats: Peanut12and4, Freyaka, McSmashie Thanks Guys

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                    • Originally posted by andrewmlb View Post
                      It's all good then. You and the Can guy team up together and don't share any of the breakfast waffles. Since I know it all in fun, I'm down with that, we've had really good dialog in the past and look forward to disagreeing with you in the future.
                      To many more debates in the future
                      Alright, thanks for being cool. I really didnt mean for you to think I was putting you down. Im a huge advocate of everyone having the right to their opinion (even when it disagrees with mine! )

                      I have a few waffles left, so as a peace offering, they are yours!
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                      • The Denver Broncos traded Jay Cutler!

                        This thread can be closed now.
                        Originally posted by baphamet
                        are you talking career or right now? because i don't see how you can say manning is top 5 even healthy.dude will never be a top 5 QB again, he is done.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                          Alright, thanks for being cool. I really didnt mean for you to think I was putting you down. Im a huge advocate of everyone having the right to their opinion (even when it disagrees with mine! )

                          I have a few waffles left, so as a peace offering, they are yours!
                          Mmmmmm, they are delicious! That's one thing we can agree upon. Thanks again.
                          I adopt Peanut, mod of the stars
                          I adopt Brakshow, you mess with him, you answer to me
                          I adopt PAINTERDAVE, my conservative elephant
                          "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry." -James 1
                          God Bless Our Troops!!!!!
                          Adopted by the Greats: Peanut12and4, Freyaka, McSmashie Thanks Guys

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                          • Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                            The Denver Broncos traded Jay Cutler!

                            This thread can be closed now.
                            No. This thread can't be closed until you've been converted into a Cutlerette or a McDaniels hater.
                            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                            You Mad Bro?
                            Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                            • Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                              No. This thread can't be closed until you've been converted into a Cutlerette or a McDaniels hater.
                              I'm doomed, not a hater or lover of either.

                              Comment


                              • The reason I started this thread was to point out that the FO had the final say-so about whether he got traded. Not who's fault is was leading up to it. Cutler is gone and this year will be judged by a lot people by how well Orton does. Orton will never be Cutler and for his to lose support over nothing he had control over will be a shame. Hopefully he does well and succeeds but he will have a big cloud to play under. I didn't agree with the trade but Orton is the man now and McD is calling the shots. So give Orton a chance to be the best QB HE can be, and not compare his every move to Cutler
                                I adopt Peanut, mod of the stars
                                I adopt Brakshow, you mess with him, you answer to me
                                I adopt PAINTERDAVE, my conservative elephant
                                "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry." -James 1
                                God Bless Our Troops!!!!!
                                Adopted by the Greats: Peanut12and4, Freyaka, McSmashie Thanks Guys

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