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  • Originally posted by oldster View Post
    I'm doomed, not a hater or lover of either.
    I know what you mean. I'm in the same boat.
    My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
    You Mad Bro?
    Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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    • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
      Alright, thanks for being cool. I really didnt mean for you to think I was putting you down. Im a huge advocate of everyone having the right to their opinion (even when it disagrees with mine! )
      If that were indeed true, you wouldn't be telling people to move on or get over it...

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      • We traded Jay Cutler?

        What were they thinking?

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        • I can't believe this thread is still alive.
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          • say so

            Originally posted by andrewmlb View Post
            The reason I started this thread was to point out that the FO had the final say-so about whether he got traded. Not who's fault is was leading up to it. Cutler is gone and this year will be judged by a lot people by how well Orton does. Orton will never be Cutler and for his to lose support over nothing he had control over will be a shame. Hopefully he does well and succeeds but he will have a big cloud to play under. I didn't agree with the trade but Orton is the man now and McD is calling the shots. So give Orton a chance to be the best QB HE can be, and not compare his every move to Cutler
            If your only point was to say that the "FO"(i.e., front office) decided to trade Cutler, it's not relevant to 'why' they had to trade him.

            Cutler was engaging in a scorched early strategy in order to force Denver to trade him. He was willing to harm the team -- and did -- in order to get out of his contract. No player has ever traded himself, but citing this fact doesn't do much to explain how a player could force his own trade, as some have done. It's a disingenuous effort on your part, andrewmlb, to frame the issue by including what isn't pertinent while omitting what is. And it's not a particularly cleaver effort since it only causes intelligent posters to think of what you've omitted.

            Factually speaking, Bowlen gave the order to trade Cutler, so Bowlen traded Cutler. Bowlen made the correct decision since Cutler was engaged in a holdout and disinformation campaign designed to smear the Broncos' Head Coach.

            Having a player under contract doesn't mean much if he's refusing to play. The team could have fined Cutler for his behavior but they couldn't force him to play or stop being a damaging influence on the team. It's doubtful that Cutler he would have continued his hold out, but paying a player to damage your team isn't an acceptable alternative.
            There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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            • Originally posted by colinski View Post
              If your only point was to say that the "FO"(i.e., front office) decided to trade Cutler, it's not relevant to 'why' they had to trade him.

              Cutler was engaging in a scorched early strategy in order to force Denver to trade him. He was willing to harm the team -- and did -- in order to get out of his contract. No player has ever traded himself, but citing this fact doesn't do much to explain how a player could force his own trade, as some have done. It's a disingenuous effort on your part, andrewmlb, to frame the issue by including what isn't pertinent while omitting what is. And it's not a particularly cleaver effort since it only causes intelligent posters to think of what you've omitted.

              Factually speaking, Bowlen gave the order to trade Cutler, so Bowlen traded Cutler. Bowlen made the correct decision since Cutler was engaged in a holdout and disinformation campaign designed to smear the Broncos' Head Coach.

              Having a player under contract doesn't mean much if he's refusing to play. The team could have fined Cutler for his behavior but they couldn't force him to play or stop being a damaging influence on the team. It's doubtful that Cutler he would have continued his hold out, but paying a player to damage your team isn't an acceptable alternative.
              While I agree with the essence of your post, it must be pointed out that Cutler wasn't holding out and he could not be fined. He was staying away from the voluntary workouts, but said he would report to the mandatory events, the first mandatory event not being until June.

              I think it was the possibility of him not showing up until June that might have sparked the desire to trade him when they did.
              My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
              You Mad Bro?
              Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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              • Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                While I agree with the essence of your post, it must be pointed out that Cutler wasn't holding out and he could not be fined. He was staying away from the voluntary workouts, but said he would report to the mandatory events, the first mandatory event not being until June.

                I think it was the possibility of him not showing up until June that might have sparked the desire to trade him when they did.
                Exactly but here is the rub .When you are trying to install a new offense and the most important person is only gonna to show up for the mandatory stuff you cant wait .

                From a couple of statements quoted in the articles posted it seems jay already had his mind made up about what happened before he even met with JMD the first time . So if you are the coach and you meet with the player and he shows up acting as though they got all the facts then why are we having this meeting ?jay at one poiint even says that JMD is trying to cover his tracks .

                Well it was because jay and Cook expected major butt kissing and guarantees to be made and as someone said a while ago the only way to show an nfl player your love is to with a new contract.
                "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

                "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

                Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

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                • didnt know if ya heard but..... cutler is a chicago bear now.

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                  • Regardless, it's hard for Jay Cutler to look good in any of this.

                    If McD came in and manipulated Cutler setting everything up to trade him from the start, then it's because Cutler wasn't smart enough, didn't work hard enough, had a bad attitude, had a drinking problem, or a combination of some or all of the above.

                    If McD is telling the truth, then Cutler's a guy who went off the deep end emotionally because his ego couldn't take the fact that the FO owns his rights and could trade him.

                    Either way it's not pretty for Cutler no matter how you paint it.

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                    • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                      Regardless, it's hard for Jay Cutler to look good in any of this.

                      If McD came in and manipulated Cutler setting everything up to trade him from the start, then it's because Cutler wasn't smart enough, didn't work hard enough, had a bad attitude, had a drinking problem, or a combination of some or all of the above.

                      If McD is telling the truth, then Cutler's a guy who went off the deep end emotionally because his ego couldn't take the fact that the FO owns his rights and could trade him.

                      Either way it's not pretty for Cutler no matter how you paint it.
                      Man, I've stayed away from this thread as long as possible because it's like opening old wounds for me. I'm still very bitter about this and I've been so good about moving forward, but as the off season starts to pick up a little after the draft, I am feeling more and more sore that Cutler is not here.

                      At this point, it is a matter of what you believe. I often see people citing speculative articles that were written, believe it and spread it around as fact. I've tried to take the least amount of information, coming from McD himself, Bowlen, Cutler or Cook and made my best opinion out of that, only. I disregarded the "sources inside say" or "anonymous source" crap that was coming out. I also tried to put into perspective the spinning that was going on to control the damage that was done to the reputation of the team.

                      Taking into consideration all of that, I firmly believe that, like you Crazy8, there was a reason that McD didn't want Cutler and did his best to push him out since day one. I would like to say that it is only my opinion.

                      My problem with your take is that you think Cutler went off the deep end emotionally. I think he played this a heck of a lot smarter than you give him credit for. Who's not to say that, conversely, Cutler saw something in McDaniels that raised a red flag as well? He took the opportunity to push the issue and risk moving to some other team, not of his choosing, rather than to stay here under the new coach. What does that tell you about McD?

                      I'm sorry, but I felt that Cutler worked hard and earned his stripes here in Denver. I'm not going to rewrite his story to make myself hate him and feel better about it. The new coach, on the other hand, had done nothing at the time to earn my respect, as a fan and I will not give it freely to him as I had before the trade talks.
                      Last edited by acpell671; 05-25-2009, 06:24 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                        Man, I've stayed away from this thread as long as possible because it's like opening old wounds for me. I'm still very bitter about this and I've been so good about moving forward, but as the off season starts to pick up a little after the draft, I am feeling more and more sore that Cutler is not here.

                        At this point, it is a matter of what you believe. I often see people citing speculative articles that were written, believe it and spread it around as fact. I've tried to take the least amount of information, coming from McD himself, Bowlen, Cutler or Cook and made my best opinion out of that, only. I disregarded the "sources inside say" or "anonymous source" crap that was coming out. I also tried to put into perspective the spinning that was going on to control the damage that was done to the reputation of the team.

                        Taking into consideration all of that, I firmly believe that, like you Crazy8, there was a reason that McD didn't want Cutler and did his best to push him out since day one. I would like to say that it is only my opinion.

                        My problem with your take is that you think Cutler went off the deep end emotionally. I think he played this a heck of a lot smarter than you give him credit for. Who's not to say that, conversely, Cutler saw something in McDaniels that raised a red flag as well? He took the opportunity to push the issue and risk moving to some other team, not of his choosing, rather than to stay here under the new coach. What does that tell you about McD?

                        I'm sorry, but I felt that Cutler worked hard and earned his stripes here in Denver. I'm not going to rewrite his story to make myself hate him and feel better about it. The new coach, on the other hand, had done nothing at the time to earn my respect, as a fan and I will not give it freely to him as I had before the trade talks.
                        Good post. My only thing is this. Cutler doesn't care about McD, bronco fans, and the broncos. Cutler wants to be wanted and respected. Can't think of many other QBs in the league with 3 yrs experience that are as good as him. Cutler knows that the broncos as an organization took a huge step backwards in dealing him. So he stood up and said, if you don't want me I'll go somewhere else where they do. Organizations show no loyalty in todays sports, so why should he. He has nothing to prove to McD. If the Nuggets got a new coach, Carmelo wouldn't have to prove himself to the next guy. His rap sheet and numbers speak for himself.

                        You think Cutler is in Chicago thinking about being a bronco? Heck no. But are we thinking about him still being a bronco? As much as we liked him as a bronco, he as a player probably really doesn't care to much about him as a fan base. And why should he, we would cheer for whoever played QB. But if he does something we don't like we bury him. Not taking into account all the things he did on the field.
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                        • Originally posted by andrewmlb View Post
                          So he stood up and said, if you don't want me I'll go somewhere else where they do.
                          I see where you are coming from in most of your post, but Im not sure about this part.

                          I guess I go back to that interview after Bowlen came out and said he would be traded. Cutler said something along the lines of how he never wanted to be traded.

                          That just immediately lost any respect I had for him. To me, in my view, I think he came out and admitted the game he had been playing with the organization (and by extension, the fans).

                          Up until that point, I was at least 50/50 as who to blame in the situation. I thought both McD and Cutler were responsible (hey, it takes two sides to maintain a fight, right?). But when he dropped that bombshell, I just felt like he really didnt care about any of us and was only power-playing for himself.

                          I find it hard to forgive him after that.
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                          • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                            I see where you are coming from in most of your post, but Im not sure about this part.

                            I guess I go back to that interview after Bowlen came out and said he would be traded. Cutler said something along the lines of how he never wanted to be traded.

                            That just immediately lost any respect I had for him. To me, in my view, I think he came out and admitted the game he had been playing with the organization (and by extension, the fans).

                            Up until that point, I was at least 50/50 as who to blame in the situation. I thought both McD and Cutler were responsible (hey, it takes two sides to maintain a fight, right?). But when he dropped that bombshell, I just felt like he really didnt care about any of us and was only power-playing for himself.

                            I find it hard to forgive him after that.
                            I think you should really take a second look at that quote. I think he is a very misunderstood individual because he can't articulate worth a damn.

                            Try to take your passion for the Broncos out of the situation and reread the quote and try to look at it with an open mind. I don't think he meant it the way you are interpreting it. I felt the same way the first time I read it, then somebody posted a different interpretation and I had to reread the quote. I really think he meant that he regrets that it ever got that far. That simple! I don't think he meant that he wanted to take it back after that point or get redos or was trying to save his image in Denver. What would he need to do that for? I mean seriously, he could have come back if he wanted to, but he didn't. He could have fired his agent as a show of good faith, but he never wanted to come back. It was over even before that.

                            Also, it would have been out of character for him to even care about how he appeared to others. It's important to take into consideration one's personality before making snap judgments, but with that quote, it was very easy to do so and sad that those were his parting words of choice. It was a bad choice of words and I would put money down that he wishes he could take it back and say differently.
                            Last edited by acpell671; 05-25-2009, 08:02 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                              I think you should really take a second look at that quote. I think he is a very misunderstood individual because he can't articulate worth a damn.

                              Try to take your passion for the Broncos out of the situation and reread the quote and try to look at it with an open mind. I don't think he meant it the way you are interpreting it. I felt the same way the first time I read it, then somebody posted a different interpretation and I had to reread the quote. I really think he meant that he regrets that it ever got that far. That simple! I don't think he meant that he wanted to take it back after that point or get redos or was trying to save his image in Denver. What would he need to do that for? I mean seriously, he could have come back if he wanted to, but he didn't. He could have fired his agent as a show of good faith, but he never wanted to come back. It was over even before that.

                              Also, it would have been out of character for him to even care about how he appeared to others. It's important to take into consideration one's personality before making snap judgments, but with that quote, it was very easy to do so and sad that those were his parting words of choice. It was a bad choice of words and I would put money down that he wishes he could take it back and say differently.
                              I take it as he said it, not as we would have wanted him to say it. He said what he said. And that is what I go on. These are just my personal feelings on it. It came across very much like the kid with his hand in the cookie jar.

                              I think he said what he said because he is ruled by his emotions. This is conjecture on my part, but I think he wanted to stick it to McD and Bowlen and when it backfired, he was really sorry he did it. I think that was probably the most honest thing he said during the whole debacle.
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                              • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                                I take it as he said it, not as we would have wanted him to say it. He said what he said. And that is what I go on. These are just my personal feelings on it. It came across very much like the kid with his hand in the cookie jar.

                                I think he said what he said because he is ruled by his emotions. This is conjecture on my part, but I think he wanted to stick it to McD and Bowlen and when it backfired, he was really sorry he did it. I think that was probably the most honest thing he said during the whole debacle.
                                It's not about wanting anything. It's about keeping in context what a person is about. When has Cutler ever said the right thing in the right way, ever? Why only wait until now? I don't think he was sorry he asked for the trade, I don't think he was sorry he left and I don't think he feels sorry for himself in Chicago. He seems happier there more than ever. He didn't want to be here anymore. It's simple really.

                                If we were take things that people say without taking into context how we know them, then we are in serious trouble with Pat Bowlen. He is another one that is terrible in the media. I haven't lost respect for him either way because of it, but if you were to take things literally as he said it, he threw his coach under the bus. Knowing Bowlen, I interpreted his comments as he might have done things a little differently or it's different from what he's used to, but has full faith in his coach's plan... But that's not what he said, is it? This doesn't apply just to Cutler, it applies to everybody, not who you pick and choose to fit your argument.

                                It sounds more like that's what YOU want Cutler to mean because demonizing him makes you feel better about him being gone. Did you reread the quote? Or are you sticking with your argument based on a snap judgment that you made when you were emotional about it? Just curious.

                                I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I think the Cutler hate needs to go away just as much as the McD hate does. At first, I was on board with McD, then I hated him and was counting the days, now, I am trying to open my mind to his plan and let him do his thing before I rush to judge his moves anymore. It works both ways, so let's be fair. Not even being able to mention Cutler's name around here is a pretty juvenile and sad state and will not change until the people who are saying "get over it" truly get over it themselves.

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