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  • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    But they did show good faith, acpell. McD went out of his way to take Cutler's Jersey to the AFL thing. He also went on TV and said, "Cutler is our starting quarterback."

    The rest of your post I pretty much agree with, but this statement isn't accurate. The Broncos - and McDaniels personally, put themselves out there knowing that if they were snubbed by Cutler it would make them look stupid - and they did it anyway.

    They not only acted in good faith, but they put themselves out on display in front of the chopping block - which is far more than I saw either Cutler or Cook do during any of this.
    Thanks for the response, Alastor, although I do have to say that while that was done, I believe it was solely for damage control, to raise the stakes a little and brew interest while gathering intel. It was disingenuous and mostly for ulterior motives, including trying to win back the fan base. That's just my personal take and nothing more than speculative.

    I think my stance stems from the prior exhange & meeting. At the time of the Dana Point event, the deal was done and Cutler was all but gone. Too late. Like I said before, the meeting was the turning point. What was said or not said there is the reason that Cutler is no longer here. None of us will ever know what really went down there but something went down in a bad way. This was the beginning of the end. Everything after that was a power play from either side and does not hold any genuine credibility as some sort of effort to repair the relationship, from either party.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
      I do have to say that while that was done, I believe it was solely for damage control...
      Okay. You believe that. I believe differently.

      If anything, I think the Broncos knew Bus Cook was up to something and how it was going to end. I do believe they wanted Cutler to stay, however - and that includes McDaniels.

      If he really wanted him gone, he wouldn't have made those gestures. He would have simply said, "He's gone."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
        There is one major flaw in your premise, when you lay this on McDaniels, and that is that Patriots did not demand a QB of Cutlers stature in the trade for Cassel, but only draft choice. I am quite convinced that McDaniels would have loved to bring Cassel in on those terms to compete with Cutler for the starting position. Patriots - however did not want McDaniels to get Cassel, so others came up with the idea that Cutler could be part of a deal. There is no evidence to suggest that McDaniels expressed a willingness to get rid of Cutler. His stated interest was to get Cassel.

        The likely scenario is not that McDaniels told anyone that he wanted to get rid of Cutler. Cutler has issues and I am not sure that he would have beat out Cassel if they were on the same roster.

        No one has the information to state that McDaniels tried to float Cutler, but it is clear that he is not as much in love whit him as Shanny was.
        Hmmmm, I am sure its all speculation... but I thought the Cutler/Cassel deal was supposed to be a 3 way trade.

        IE,
        Cassel to Denver
        Cutler to KC
        KC Picks to New England

        In the end, I was surprised at how cheap cassel was.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
          But they did show good faith, acpell. McD went out of his way to take Cutler's Jersey to the AFL thing. He also went on TV and said, "Cutler is our starting quarterback."

          The rest of your post I pretty much agree with, but this statement isn't accurate. The Broncos - and McDaniels personally, put themselves out there knowing that if they were snubbed by Cutler it would make them look stupid - and they did it anyway.

          They not only acted in good faith, but they put themselves out on display in front of the chopping block - which is far more than I saw either Cutler or Cook do during any of this.
          The whole reason why I have changed my mind about this point is because of the way McDaniels played it. Why refer to Cutler as "the player"? I think it was to remind him of his role, and to get under his skin. I used to think it was cut and dry and McD was on the up and up. But now, I think it was manipulation, and I think it was on purpose. That's not a bad thing. Like I said earlier, if you can manipulate someone who doesn't put the team first to get out of town, then you can manipulate someone who does put the team first to work a little bit harder to get a little bit better.

          Publicly, McD said all of the right things, but there could have been a bit of an undercurrent there that suggested he didn't want Jay. Nothing too blatant, but just enough to irritate Jay. Again, if this is the case, it brings up the question of why. Because there has to be a reason why. I just don't see the 'whys' or potential 'whys' addressed in this discussion. They simply attack the coach and organization.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
            Okay. You believe that. I believe differently.

            If anything, I think the Broncos knew Bus Cook was up to something and how it was going to end. I do believe they wanted Cutler to stay, however - and that includes McDaniels.

            If he really wanted him gone, he wouldn't have made those gestures. He would have simply said, "He's gone."
            If he really wanted him to stay, he could've simply said, "I am committed to you as the quaterback that we are going to continue invest in for the future of this team." Not to us, not to the media, but to Jay. That's all he wanted, a statement of confidence from his coach after the vote of no-confidence with the trade talk. Or tell the media how excited you are to work with Jay then field phone calls for Matt Cassel the next. How is it so damaging to the foundation of to express confidence in your players? That's what I don't get. How many times did we have to hear Lovie Smith say "Rex is our QB" before Rex cracked and lost his job? As far as commitment goes, contracts don't mean squat to the team, but everything to the player. Nobody's job is safe in the NFL, especially if you don't perform.

            I also love the fact that we have open competition for our qb spot. Do most fans not realize here that if you have 2 qbs, then you actually have none? Why is this a better method than actually getting or keeping a qb with an untrainable skill set and building on that for the future?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
              If he really wanted him to stay, he could've simply said, "I am committed to you as the quaterback that we are going to continue invest in for the future of this team."
              You're presuming that that's what Jay Cutler actually wanted to hear. I think that's speculation at this point - and I'm not at all convinced Cutler actually cared.

              Beyond that, perhaps that would have happened had Cutler answered his phone. It's hard to say anything to someone that won't answer the phone.

              None the less, you asserted that the Broncos and McD never tried to reach out, and that's not accurate. They did so - in bold ways - at least two times.

              Cutler never returned the favor in any way.

              If Cutler wanted something different and that was the big issue - then I equate that to a girl dumping a guy because she wanted daisies and he brought her roses.

              "You tried to show me appreciation, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted, not that I bothered to ever try to reach back out to you along the way. But we're breaking up now anyway, and it's all your fault."

              That's what I get out of this line of reasoning.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                If he really wanted him to stay, he could've simply said, "I am committed to you as the quaterback that we are going to continue invest in for the future of this team." Not to us, not to the media, but to Jay. That's all he wanted, a statement of confidence from his coach after the vote of no-confidence with the trade talk. Or tell the media how excited you are to work with Jay then field phone calls for Matt Cassel the next. How is it so damaging to the foundation of to express confidence in your players? That's what I don't get. How many times did we have to hear Lovie Smith say "Rex is our QB" before Rex cracked and lost his job? As far as commitment goes, contracts don't mean squat to the team, but everything to the player. Nobody's job is safe in the NFL, especially if you don't perform.

                I also love the fact that we have open competition for our qb spot. Do most fans not realize here that if you have 2 qbs, then you actually have none? Why is this a better method than actually getting or keeping a qb with an untrainable skill set and building on that for the future?
                These comments were before they ever had the meeting .

                No one from the Broncos' organization would comment further Monday, instead saying that what McDaniels told The Denver Post on Saturday remains the team's position. McDaniels denied he initiated the trade proposal, telling The Post: "We've received trade calls on a number of players, which is not uncommon this time of the year. I also think the sensitivity of the other trade that was occurring, with my relationship with New England and the whole Cassel thing, I think that stirred the pot even more.

                "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."

                Told of McDaniels' denial, Cutler said, "He's covering his (tracks)."
                So it seems someone already had their mind made up before actually even talking to the team about it


                .


                “I went in there with every intention of solving the issue, being a Bronco, moving forward as a Bronco,” Cutler said. “We weren’t in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and as far as I’m concerned, he made it clear he wants his own guy. He admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. He said he wasn’t sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading me because, as he put it, he’ll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization.

                "At the end of the meeting, he wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It felt like the opposite. He basically said that I needed to tell him if we can't work this out, to let him know," Cutler added. "I thought he was antagonizing me and that was disappointing because I was ready to move on, committed as a Bronco. Really, I figured we'd hash things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened [Saturday] was the last thing I expected. If I didn't think it could be fixed, I never would have come back to Denver. It was painfully obvious to me and Bus [Cook, his agent] it's not something they want to fix."

                JMD had already said several times publicly that they wanted jay and that he was his QB. So what else could he have done ? It seems that he felt that he would get something more out of it like maybe a new contract and a no trade guarantee because what more could JMD have done that he hadnt already been doing ?
                "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

                "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

                Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                  You're presuming that that's what Jay Cutler actually wanted to hear. I think that's speculation at this point - and I'm not at all convinced Cutler actually cared.

                  Beyond that, perhaps that would have happened had Cutler answered his phone. It's hard to say anything to someone that won't answer the phone.

                  None the less, you asserted that the Broncos and McD never tried to reach out, and that's not accurate. They did so - in bold ways - at least two times.

                  Cutler never returned the favor in any way.

                  If Cutler wanted something different and that was the big issue - then I equate that to a girl dumping a guy because she wanted daisies and he brought her roses.

                  "You tried to show me appreciation, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted, not that I bothered to ever try to reach back out to you along the way. But we're breaking up now anyway, and it's all your fault."

                  That's what I get out of this line of reasoning.
                  That's what he asked for. Whether you think it's truthful or not is your call. I choose to believe that lying is not one of Cutler's strong suits. His problem for the three years on this team has been over-honesty, not deceit. It has never been in his nature since we've become acquainted with him to be deceitful, why now? The guy can't lie to save the seat of his pants.

                  I think you are confusing the time frame. Cutler demanded a trade after that meeting, there was no more negotiating, no phone calls, no discussion. That was his stance. There was nothing to be worked out, regardless of what McD said or spun or Cook accused Bowlen of at that point. Jay wanted out. I do think it disrespectful to not return Bowlen's calls if not only to say "I'm not going to reconsider my request for trade."

                  But you're putting so much stock in a time period where there was no longer going to be any repairs to the damage that was done. It was over already. Everyone knew it, even the Broncos. You even stated earlier that anything involving Cook wasn't going to work out well. So they knew where it was going. It was damage control.

                  Thanks for hearing me out. Great debate part deaux!

                  Comment


                  • Who traded Cutler???

                    Who traded Jay Cutler?

                    The Denver Broncos traded Jay Cutler. Geez!


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                    Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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                    • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                      That's what he asked for. Whether you think it's truthful or not is your call. I choose to believe that lying is not one of Cutler's strong suits. His problem for the three years on this team has been over-honesty, not deceit. It has never been in his nature since we've become acquainted with him to be deceitful, why now? The guy can't lie to save the seat of his pants.

                      I think you are confusing the time frame. Cutler demanded a trade after that meeting, there was no more negotiating, no phone calls, no discussion. That was his stance. There was nothing to be worked out, regardless of what McD said or spun or Cook accused Bowlen of at that point. Jay wanted out. I do think it disrespectful to not return Bowlen's calls if not only to say "I'm not going to reconsider my request for trade."

                      But you're putting so much stock in a time period where there was no longer going to be any repairs to the damage that was done. It was over already. Everyone knew it, even the Broncos. You even stated earlier that anything involving Cook wasn't going to work out well. So they knew where it was going. It was damage control.

                      Thanks for hearing me out. Great debate part deaux!

                      Actually Jay was the one who took it public . He knew exactly where JMD was and before making any public comments he couldve simply went and spoke directly to JMD,Xander, and Bowlen . Before he even took the meeting he claimed JMD was covering his tracks and he had already confirmed it but how could he have done that ? Thats Bus Cook pushing this thing from the start.
                      "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

                      "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

                      Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
                        Actually Jay was the one who took it public . He knew exactly where JMD was and before making any public comments he couldve simply went and spoke directly to JMD,Xander, and Bowlen . Before he even took the meeting he claimed JMD was covering his tracks and he had already confirmed it but how could he have done that ? Thats Bus Cook pushing this thing from the start.
                        I'm not sure what you are referring to in my post. Can you clarify?

                        I think that all parties should be accountable for their actions, this includes Jay. Bus Cook is not responsible for this, Jay & McD are the ones who could not meet eye to eye. Jay is responsible for his actions regardless of what Bus Cook did to facilitate it. If Bus did something so wrong, Jay would have fired him. I've never been party to blaming Cook for anything. He's just an agent. Even if he filled Jay's head with hot air, that's Jay's choice to buy into it.

                        I know you think I'm a Cutler apologist, but I'm not. He made a conscious decision when he asked for the trade. For whatever reason, he decided he no longer wanted to be here.

                        I guess I'm just hoping that one of you will hold McD accountable for his actions and stop glossing it over or keep misdirecting it to be all Cutler's fault. Regardless of how ugly it went down, the only thing we can be sure of is that McD and Cutler at some point decided that they did not want each other.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                          Okay. You believe that. I believe differently.

                          If anything, I think the Broncos knew Bus Cook was up to something and how it was going to end. I do believe they wanted Cutler to stay, however - and that includes McDaniels.

                          If he really wanted him gone, he wouldn't have made those gestures. He would have simply said, "He's gone."
                          I'm usually on your side of the discussion and not this other side, so this is strange for me.

                          I think the one person standing in the way of McD saying "He's gone" was Pat Bowlen. Pat had a relationship with Jay and I don't think he ever would've gone for letting Jay go unless it was absolutely necessary. A situation could have been created by McD where it was absolutely necessary to move Cutler.

                          Football is like that. While in college, I was talking to my head coach just shooting the breeze. We were talking NFL, and he told me that a particular successful NFL coach would be fired and another particular coach brought in. I looked at him like he was crazy. The coach who was rumored to be fired had just come off of one of the better seasons by that franchise in years. I told him he was crazy, and he just gave me one of those knowing smiles, and shrugged. The very next season that successful NFL coach had been fired after an 8-8 season, and another coach brought in. It wasn't the coach my coach said it would be, but that was because that other coach got another job somewhere else before the GM could bring him in. This guy wasn't the GM's guy, and even though he was somewhat successful, he was fired.
                          Last edited by Crazy8; 05-26-2009, 10:52 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
                            Exactly but here is the rub .When you are trying to install a new offense and the most important person is only gonna to show up for the mandatory stuff you cant wait .

                            From a couple of statements quoted in the articles posted it seems jay already had his mind made up about what happened before he even met with JMD the first time . So if you are the coach and you meet with the player and he shows up acting as though they got all the facts then why are we having this meeting ?jay at one poiint even says that JMD is trying to cover his tracks .

                            Well it was because jay and Cook expected major butt kissing and guarantees to be made and as someone said a while ago the only way to show an nfl player your love is to with a new contract.
                            I agree with most of what you say in this post.

                            The one thing I will say is that if it's me, I take my chances with Jay, even if he only shows up for the mandatory stuff. I think Jay Cutler only showing up for a mandatory mini camp and training camp is better than going with Kyle Orton, Chris Simms, or a rookie, even if you're installing a new offense. That being said, I fully agree that the Broncos were in the right to do it the way they did it. Even though I think Cutler is better than Orton or Simms, I think the Broncos can still win with Orton or Simms. Like the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

                            The Broncos chose not to wait for Cutler to pull his head out of his third point of contact. As I indicated in an earlier post, I think that has a lot to with Pat Bowlen not liking the idea of his head coach and franchise quarterback butting heads. I don't think Cutler had any intentions of resolving the matter. I don't know if Bus Cook was pulling the strings or if Cutler just has that big of an ego. If Cutler expected the organization to kiss his posterior, Bus Cook should have been wise enough to know that it wasn't going to happen and should have counseled his client appropriately. Given the fact that McDaniels comes from the New England branch of the Parcels tree, everyone knew there wasn't going to be any butt kissing by the head coach or anyone in the Broncos' organization.
                            Last edited by broncolee; 05-26-2009, 10:05 AM.
                            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
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                            • Is there any fresh information or perspectives on the trade in the previous 16 pages that would make it worth my time to read it?

                              If not, I'm not wasting my time reading re-hashes of what's been discussed ad nauseum for the last 2 months.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                                I'm usually on your side of the discussion and not this other side, so this is strange for me.

                                I think the one person standing in the way of McD saying "He's gone" was Pat Bowlen. Pat had a relationship with Jay and I don't think he ever would've gone for letting Jay go unless it was absolutely necessary. A situation could have been created where it was absolutely necessary.

                                Football is like that. While in college, I was talking to my head coach just shooting the breeze. We were talking NFL, and he told me that a particular successful NFL coach would be fired and another particular coach brought in. I looked at him like he was crazy. The coach who was rumored to be fired had just come off of one of the better seasons by that franchise in years. I told him he was crazy, and he just gave me one of those knowing smiles, and shrugged. The very next season that successful NFL coach had been fired after an 8-8 season, and another coach brought in. It wasn't the coach my coach said it would be, but that was because that other coach got another job somewhere else before the GM could bring him in. This guy wasn't the GM's guy, and even though he was somewhat successful, he was fired.
                                I actually agree with you 100% on this. I started typing something about it on a previous post, but I opted to delete it.

                                I have a lot of respect for Pat Bowlen. He is coming off a period where he had one qb for so long, somebody he believed in. He's an owner who loves his flashy, exciting qb.

                                I have held the opinion that Pat Bowlen is in support of McD as he should be, but behind closed doors McD cut his rope short. Bowlen can not be pleased with how this has brought such a negative light to the organization. Yes, Cutler is responsible for his share in this, however, as an owner, Pat Bowlen will hold his top people accountable, just like in any business. If I screw up in my job, my boss will take the heat from his boss. It's the chain of command and what is expected of the leaders of any organization. He's come out and admitted to McD making mistakes. No matter how much you suppport your guy, admitting his mistakes to the public is a voice of some kind of displeasure.

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