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  • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    McD went out of his way to take Cutler's Jersey to the AFL thing. He also went on TV and said, "Cutler is our starting quarterback."
    According to Bill Williamson, Josh did not bring that jersey. None of the teams had a choice in who they held. Those were handed out directly before the picture was taken. It is the reason McDaniels has the dumb smirk on his face when he held it up. Where is everyone suddenly getting that he brought it? I keep seeing it said on here now....

    Also, as for the second part, what exactly was he going to say? His boy had already been traded to another team. Of course he didn't want to get rid of Cutler at that time. He isn't going to say "Jay isn't out QB, screw that kid".... He wanted Jay back at that time but still didn't want to do what it took to get him back. That would be why a 32 year old shouldn't be in charge of everything. Younger people tend to have much bigger egos. Inexperienced people have egos to big for their own good.

    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    Beyond that, perhaps that would have happened had Cutler answered his phone. It's hard to say anything to someone that won't answer the phone.

    None the less, you asserted that the Broncos and McD never tried to reach out, and that's not accurate. They did so - in bold ways - at least two times.
    Jay did answer his phone. At least for the first month or two of the ordeal. Maybe they should have made it better at one of those times rather than waiting to reach out when Cutler had enough of it... That would only make sense though. Why fix it before it becomes irreparable?

    I don't get how you all credit the organization with trying to repair this. They reached out well after the boiling point had been reached. That is not worthy of praise. That isn't trying to fix the relationship. That is egging it on and then doing damage control.


    Edit: I had time, so I looked up the Williamson article. http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...ill+Williamson

    "Perhaps the best moment of the session was saved for last. All of the coaches from the teams that started in the American Football League showed off the jerseys that their teams will wear twice this season to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the AFL. Coaches had the jersey number of their biggest stars.

    Yes, McDaniels was issued No. 6 with Cutler's name on it. Could you imagine Green Bay Packers coach Mike McCarthy having to hold up a Brett Favre jersey last summer or Philadelphia Eagles coach Andy Reid having to hold up a Terrell Owens jersey three years ago?"


    What I find funny is that even the NFL sees we just traded our best player. That is never a good thing IMO.
    Last edited by jhns; 05-26-2009, 11:10 AM.

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    • Miss Cutler?

      Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
      You're ASSUMING that Cassel would've been brought here to compete with Cutler. The only thing we KNOW for sure is that the only trade that McD heard for sure was involving Tampa and a 3 way trade. Nowhere in there was there a trade that was listened to or otherwise where Cutler remained a Bronco.

      If you have a guy who is "the guy" like Cutler was for Denver, you don't bring guys in to compete. You do that for 2nd tier QBs, but not guys with Cutler's skills.

      For Cassel to come here, Cutler would have to be gone. The Pats franchised Cassel, so just from an economic perspective, you don't tie that much of your salary cap up at one position. That's not a good thing. Then only to cut one of them would've tied a lot of money up in dead cap space. In short, it would've been a waste. You would have to cut them too, because nobody would trade for a QB that they know you have to get rid of anyway. Teams would take the chance on the open market. Why give a draft pick away if you don't have to?

      This scenario doesn't make sense on a lot of levels.
      Many aspects of this story never made sense. And the situation was made worse by some extremely bad reporting and Internet based communications that are essentially gossip mongering.

      Reports of an attempted trade by Tampa Bay quickly morphed into Denver "shopping" Cutler, which McDaniels adamantly denied. [SEE STORY BELOW]

      Though it never materialized, the Bucs on Saturday tried to fashion a three-way trade that would have brought Broncos starter Jay Cutler to Tampa, NFL.com reported.

      The deal may have fallen apart earlier, but it reportedly disintegrated when the Patriots finalized a trade that sent quarterback Matt Cassel to the Chiefs.
      The original report from NFL.com appears to have been Schefter's, see here. Far from the "shopping" angle that the story later assumed, in Cook & Cutler's accounts as well as in some others, Denver didn't have a real interest in trading Cutler. We can assume that Tampa Bay's offer was substantial or worth 'listening to.' McDaniels later explains the difference between 'serious' and 'non-serious' offers in order to explain why he would listen to an offer concerning Cutler, and he goes on to explain that he considers it his duty to listen to serious offers since they could help the team.

      Tampa approached Denver to try to make a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to the Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler to the Buccaneers. The Broncos entertained the notion and pondered it but ultimately decided against it.

      Also, the Lions approached the Broncos about a trade for Cutler, trying to dangle Cassel as bait. Once again, Denver debated the deal and opted against it apparently. What made it a moot point was that while all Tampa, Detroit and Denver engaged in trade talks with New England, the Patriots went ahead and dealt Cassel to the Chiefs. - Adam Schefter, Feb. 28, 2009, NFL.com
      What started as last minute offers by Tampa Bay and Detroit(accounts vary on this detail) to pry Cutler away from Denver was later transformed into an effort on Denver's part "to move" or "shop" Cutler, in spite of what had originally been reported [SEE HERE].

      Denver Was Shopping Cutler

      [underlining above is mine, for emphasis]

      From Adam Schefter of NFL.com:

      There’s one story behind the trade of Matt Cassel to the Chiefs. There’s a whole other story behind that blockbuster story.

      While New England and Kansas City were agreeing to Saturday’s trade of Cassel to the Chiefs for the draft’s 34th overall pick, there were more teams in the mix. Detroit, Tampa and Denver were involved in trade talks of their own also tied to Cassel, according to sources in the respective NFL cities.

      Tampa approached Denver to try to make a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to the Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler to the Buccaneers. The Broncos entertained the notion and pondered it but ultimately decided against it.

      Also, the Lions approached the Broncos about a trade for Cutler, trying to dangle Cassel as bait. Once again, Denver debated the deal and opted against it apparently. What made it a moot point was that while all Tampa, Detroit and Denver engaged in trade talks with New England, the Patriots went ahead and dealt Cassel to the Chiefs.
      The Broncos firmly maintain that they never intended to trade Cutler, that they were approached to make the trades. But, as of Saturday afternoon, Cutler was angry to hear that his name had been floated in any trade conversations.

      Now the Chiefs have Cassel, the Broncos still have Cutler and the Lions and Buccaneers continue their search for quarterbacks in one of the wilder and more complex behind-the-scene dramas the NFL has seen in any recent offseason.
      What's noticeable about the National Football Post article above is that even though Schefter's name is prominently displayed as the source, the story changed from Schefter's original reporting. The story is subtly changed (or not so subtly) to include "Denver was shopping Cutler" as its headline, which misrepresents the facts as they were originally reported by Schefter.

      Having one's name come up in trade talks is hardly uncommon and some of the best players are probably talked about frequently, although teams are also resistant to trading them so these conversations would be short, but Cutler & Cook's reaction to this unremarkable event is to portray it as deeply offensive. Being a 'hot' property in the eyes of other teams certainly doesn't need to be interpreted as an insult; it means you'll be paid well and have no problem finding another team if you were to become a free agent, and being sought by other teams is also an indication of ability, just as being voted to an all-star team is. So it's clear that Cutler and Cook have an agenda behind their campaign to portray the trade offers the Broncos are receiving as some kind of egregious insult against Cutler.

      One of the poorly understood aspects of NFL trade talks is the concept of bargaining. US citizens are used to seeing price tags ('fixed prices') on items so it sometimes takes a trip abroad and a visit to a foreign marketplace before they get the idea of what it means to 'haggle.' NFL players don't come with price tags so the only way to know what a player is worth is by engaging in trade talk. The intent behind these conversations varies greatly; some teams are actively shopping a player and everyone is aware of that fact, other teams are investigating to 'discover' price, which may be so high that they eventually decide to make a trade that they were disinclined to do initially. Teams may be inclined or disinclined towards trading a player but the real question is -- how much? Moreover, teams may not even have particular players in mind when they talk. A general need may be their overriding consideration and names only come up during the process of talking.

      An interesting aspect of the Cutlergate controversy is how routine trade conversations became misunderstood. This was no accident. Denver never showed an inclination to trade Cutler but did explore options once trade offers were received. While many still cling to the notion that trade offers are like fixed prices that teams either accept or reject, the situation is frequently more complex. Teams don't know 'what' that offer is unless they investigate. Tampa Bay's offer must have included at least a couple 1st round picks, judging by what Denver eventually obtained, but the offer of including Cassel wasn't ever more than tentative since New England never agreed and even denies receiving a "concrete offer," according to their coach.

      The trade talks may have taken as little as part of a Saturday afternoon or as much as part of weekend or more, but they were never more than a minor interlude in the midst of a busy offseason free agent signing period in which Dawkins and other free agents were signed.

      Cook and Cutler appear together in a news conference of sorts immediately after hearing of the trade talks. Apparently organized by Cook, it's sole purpose appears to be to announce Cutler's new found status as an aggrieved victim. Even though Cook later admits he doesn't know if the Broncos were trying to trade Cutler, Cook repeatedly postures about how awful it would be if they did and dwells on this egregious offense despite admitting to not knowing whether it happened.

      What's odd about Cutler's claim to being emotionally injured by the trade talks is how little he seemed to care about remaining a Bronco. He frequently burned bridges and insulted the head coach, calling him a liar and making other derogatory comments about him. Cutler even insults Bowlen, claiming that he failed to live up to his assurances to Cutler to keep the offensive staff intact. Bowlen rebuts the claim. Cutler's behavior could be described as, with only a trace of hyperbole, like that of a jilted teenage girl, claiming to want to reclaim her relationship with her former boyfriend but seeming more intent on revenging the act that estranged her affections.

      It was all that serious, at least it was for him (or her?). And credulous fans bought it. Remarkably.

      I'm sure that there are many people here who now miss him.
      Last edited by colinski; 05-26-2009, 06:02 PM.
      There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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      • Very interesting post, unfortunately the spins will continue.

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        • Originally posted by colinski View Post

          What's odd about Cutler's claim to being emotionally injured by the trade talks is how little he seemed to care about remaining a Bronco. He frequently burned bridges and insulted the head coach, calling him a liar and making other derogatory comments about him. Cutler even insults Bowlen, claiming that he failed to live up to his assurances to Cutler to keep the offensive staff intact. Bowlen rebuts the claim. Cutler's behavior could be described as, with only a trace of hyperbole, like that of a jilted teenage girl, claiming to want to reclaim her relationship with her former boyfriend but seeming more intent on revenging the act that estranged her affections.
          So you showed that they were trying to shop Cutler and that is supposed to be excused because it was only to a team or two? I don't get how that shows they weren't shopping him. EVERY article you just posted says they were shopping him. Not one of them is different. None of them say Jay didn't come up.

          Also, Jay lied to them and called them liars? Bowlen and McDaniels have both lied straight up to everyone including Jay. McDaniels denied that Jay was in trade talks right away. Everything you posted says different. Bowlen called Jay a liar and said he never told him he would keep the offensive staff. He said it in an interview after Shanny was fired, to everyone. Do we all really believe that Jay was lieing about being told that when Bowlen said that to everyone? This organization is doing exactly what you claimed Cutler was doing. It is amazing that you guys can just pull your covers over your heads and act like it was all Jay. No one in this world thinks this organization handled any of this well. No one in the world thinks McDaniels offseason moves have been good. Homer Bronco fans are smarter than the world though...... Rigggght.
          Last edited by jhns; 05-27-2009, 06:34 AM.

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          • Originally posted by jhns View Post
            So you showed that they were trying to shop Cutler and that is supposed to be excused...
            I don't think that's what he said at all. In fact he said that Shefter's original story was changed by other media to indicate the Broncos were shopping Cutler when that wasn't the case at all.

            In fact, what colinski wrote was:

            What's noticeable about the National Football Post article above is that even though Schefter's name is prominently displayed as the source, the story changed from Schefter's original reporting. The story is subtly changed (or not so subtly) to include "Denver was shopping Cutler" as its headline, which misrepresents the facts as they were originally reported by Schefter.

            Having one's name come up in trade talks is hardly uncommon and some of the best players are probably talked about frequently, although teams are also resistant to trading them so these conversations would be short, but Cutler & Cook's reaction to this unremarkable event is to portray it as deeply offensive.
            I'm not sure if you misunderstood his statement or are taking it out of context and portraying it to mean the opposite of what he said on purpose - but this is exactly how arguments get started.

            It's also how irresponsible media contributed to the Cutler fiasco in the first place (if it wasn't already decided before their involvement).

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            • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
              I don't think that's what he said at all. In fact he said that Shefter's original story was changed by other media to indicate the Broncos were shopping Cutler when that wasn't the case at all.

              In fact, what colinski wrote was:

              I'm not sure if you misunderstood his statement or are taking it out of context and portraying it to mean the opposite of what he said on purpose - but this is exactly how arguments get started.

              It's also how irresponsible media contributed to the Cutler fiasco in the first place (if it wasn't already decided before their involvement).
              The original story is saying they shopped Cutler though.

              From the original story:

              "Tampa approached Denver to try to make a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to the Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler to the Buccaneers. The Broncos entertained the notion and pondered it but ultimately decided against it.

              Also, the Lions approached the Broncos about a trade for Cutler, trying to dangle Cassel as bait. Once again, Denver debated the deal and opted against it apparently. What made it a moot point was that while all Tampa, Detroit and Denver engaged in trade talks with New England, the Patriots went ahead and dealt Cassel to the Chiefs. - Adam Schefter, Feb. 28, 2009, NFL.com "

              In other words, trades were discussed, Cutler was in those discussions. What exactly was I wrong about? By all reports, the only thing stopping the trade talks was Cassel actually getting shipped to KC.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jhns View Post
                The original story is saying they shopped Cutler though.
                You have a very different definition of "shopping" someone than most folks, then.

                Shopping someone in my mind means that the team that has the player in question is actively looking to trade them to one (but usually more) other teams.

                In this case, Tampa approached the Broncos - not the other way around. And it was one call, not several.

                Presuming that everything else in this article is accurate, even this is not what constitutes "shopping a player around" by almost anyone's definition.

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                • Originally posted by jhns View Post
                  In other words, trades were discussed, Cutler was in those discussions. What exactly was I wrong about? By all reports, the only thing stopping the trade talks was Cassel actually getting shipped to KC.
                  Because when a team shops a player, the original team (in this case Denver) would put out the word that the player is available with a price for him (ie cardinals with boldin before the draft).

                  What happened with the lions and bucs were the other teams approached denver with offers for Cutler without the Broncos starting the talks.

                  The difference in shopping a player is who started the talks for the player.

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                  • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                    You have a very different definition of "shopping" someone than most folks, then.

                    Shopping someone in my mind means that the team that has the player in question is actively looking to trade them to one (but usually more) other teams.

                    In this case, Tampa approached the Broncos - not the other way around. And it was one call, not several.

                    Presuming that everything else in this article is accurate, even this is not what constitutes "shopping a player around" by almost anyone's definition.
                    The Lions as well.

                    They allowed Cutler to be talked about. That is shopping him. Otherwise why was his name mentioned? Why didn't they offer something else for Cassel? They were shopping Jay. It doesn't matter who called who first.

                    ANyways, I am not one that believes people just call about your 25 year old pro bowl QB. Teams are not randomly calling about trading for Rivers, Big Ben, Manning, Brady, or any other player that a franchise is built around. It doesn't happen. Ex-GMs and ex-coaches have confirmed that. Go re-watch the second day of the draft. They had a lot of people go over it including ex-coaches and ex-GMs.

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                    • Originally posted by jhns View Post
                      They allowed Cutler to be talked about.
                      The Broncos have the authority to stop other teams from talking about Cutler?

                      Other teams are allowed to make their proposals. The Broncos are obligated to listen to the offers (though granted they then need to weed out the good from the bad).

                      Were the Lions part of the three-way deal that the Patriots started, or was this after the "fiasco" started? I'm asking because I don't really remember who came in when.

                      But no, that is not "shopping" a player. Not in my mind at least, and I'd be surprised if most people disagreed with that stance.

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                      • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                        The Broncos have the authority to stop other teams from talking about Cutler?

                        Other teams are allowed to make their proposals. The Broncos are obligated to listen to the offers (though granted they then need to weed out the good from the bad).

                        Were the Lions part of the three-way deal that the Patriots started, or was this after the "fiasco" started? I'm asking because I don't really remember who came in when.

                        But no, that is not "shopping" a player. Not in my mind at least, and I'd be surprised if most people disagreed with that stance.
                        I agree. My perception to Shopping for instance "Honey I am going to go to ****'s Sporting Goods to shop for some shoes."

                        I guess in JHNS's little world ****s Sporting Goods would come to my house so I could shop for shoes?

                        The other teams initiated the calls therefore they were shopping, And I don't know who this reporter is who said they even pondered the notion when none of the reporters can honestly tell you or me to our face what was said in those conversations.

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                        • Originally posted by elecshoc View Post
                          Because when a team shops a player, the original team (in this case Denver) would put out the word that the player is available with a price for him (ie cardinals with boldin before the draft).

                          What happened with the lions and bucs were the other teams approached denver with offers for Cutler without the Broncos starting the talks.

                          The difference in shopping a player is who started the talks for the player.
                          That is correct!

                          Originally posted by jhns View Post
                          The Lions as well.

                          They allowed Cutler to be talked about. That is shopping him. Otherwise why was his name mentioned? Why didn't they offer something else for Cassel? They were shopping Jay. It doesn't matter who called who first.

                          ANyways, I am not one that believes people just call about your 25 year old pro bowl QB. Teams are not randomly calling about trading for Rivers, Big Ben, Manning, Brady, or any other player that a franchise is built around. It doesn't happen. Ex-GMs and ex-coaches have confirmed that. Go re-watch the second day of the draft. They had a lot of people go over it including ex-coaches and ex-GMs.
                          Ok, they dont and we did not either. McDaniels listened. Thats his fault, but just because other GMS ect say they dont or did not, does not mean McDaniels did. Your useing the fact that Peyton, Brady ect do not get shoped as your fact that Josh did. ???????? Come on man, what kind of fact is that?:go:
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                          • Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                            Is there any fresh information or perspectives on the trade in the previous 16 pages that would make it worth my time to read it?

                            If not, I'm not wasting my time reading re-hashes of what's been discussed ad nauseum for the last 2 months.
                            Hey Powder.....did you know that Jay Cutler was traded???????????

                            I think it's time we had a good discussion on why he was traded, who was to blame, and what happened behind closed doors (you know, things we know nothing about). It's time we got to the bottom of this thing.

                            And I can see it now.......Denver Broncos "Super Bowl Champions".......but who cares, we need to know what was the deal with Jay Cutler!!!!!!! followed by......."how can those homers get over this thing?????"

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                            • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                              The Broncos have the authority to stop other teams from talking about Cutler?
                              They sure do. Maybe not from talking about it amongst themselves. They can surely stop them from talking about it to them.

                              As for the rest, it looks like it is opinion and we aren't going to share the rest. The Broncos were talking trade with Cutler involved. To me, that is shopping him. If they aren't shopping him, why is he in trade talks? Again though, we are going to have to agree to disagree because there is no typed out definition for this.

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                              • Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                                The Broncos have the authority to stop other teams from talking about Cutler?

                                Other teams are allowed to make their proposals. The Broncos are obligated to listen to the offers (though granted they then need to weed out the good from the bad).

                                Were the Lions part of the three-way deal that the Patriots started, or was this after the "fiasco" started? I'm asking because I don't really remember who came in when.

                                But no, that is not "shopping" a player. Not in my mind at least, and I'd be surprised if most people disagreed with that stance.
                                Exactly Ive always took the initial accusations as a rumor in which Jay bought into totally before even talking to the team and by the time he showed up for the meeting . If it was so easy for something someone says outside of the organization to have so much influence over you before you even speak to us then there is a serious problem there.
                                "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

                                "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

                                Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

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