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  • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
    A HC should know his job. All the learning curve should be is to get to know how the organization runs. He has staff to help him with that. He has a GM who is probably less qualified to be a GM than McD is to be a coach. That is a major problem and has shown immensely this off season. This is not a good thing, nor is it acceptable to me.

    There is a big difference between have a management position or middle management position and switching jobs as opposed to running an organization.
    acpell....

    I disagree. No matter who you are and at what level, you do not necessarily have a total grasp on any new job immediately. That's not realistic (shouldn't use that word here). I've been in the mid management / director level workplace for a good part of my 33 year management career (so what some will say), and I don't see it the way you do. You are not groomed for every facet of taking on a major promotion unless you were acting in the position for a decent amount of time. You don't just step in. And in this case, the roles of HC can be different from team to team.

    I would not assume anything in that regard.

    Even the very best of leaders took their time to get comfortable in their jobs....

    So on that front, I do not agree with you.....(we haven't had a good debate for a couple of days!!!!)

    Comment


    • McD judgement highly questionable

      Winning championships means have a championship caliber QB. Look at the past 25 Superbowl winners. What did 80% of them have in common? Their QB's are in the Hall of Fame or will some day be in the hall of fame. Montana, Young, Elway, Favre, Manning, Brady, Aikman, etc.

      By all accounts by the experts such as Aikman, Jaworski, and Simms.....Cutler is on his way to being an elite QB. Despite the homers on here who like to pick apart Cutler's game. Let's face it.....football experts who have seen three years of Cutler say he's reaching the elite status.

      That said, if it's likely you need a championship QB to win a championship why would you trade one away? Apparently, McD thinks elite QB's grow on trees. That's what we are questioning here.....McD's judgement.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
        It is because of the emotional attachment we all have for this team. We love those darn Donks! So everything they do is GIGANTIC (to us). To non-fans, it is just another business.
        I think you've hit the nail on the head there. To many passionate Broncos fans, the Cutler issue rankles because of how good he was for us.

        On a different note, one thing that annoys me (and some others who want to stop talking about Cutler but keep getting dragged back in) is the unnecessary and immature cheap shots that some posters take at him. As a Broncos fan, I always wish players who played for my team well (I still root for Griese in all his position battles; ditto for the likes of Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson, Trevor Pryce etc). I may not like the way Cutler spoke to the media or that he couldn't put his mistrust of McDaniels aside, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a good player for us. Add in the fact that no one knew he was losing 30 pounds over the course of the 2007 season (because he never complained) and the good work he did in the community, I find it very distasteful that people bash him around here the way they do. The strange thing is that Cutler was never among my favorite players on the Broncos, but I find myself defending him because of how others react to him. (Given how much of my time this takes up, I can only hope we never trade Ryan Clady, Chris Kuper or Champ Bailey).
        Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
          acpell....

          I disagree. No matter who you are and at what level, you do not necessarily have a total grasp on any new job immediately. That's not realistic (shouldn't use that word here). I've been in the mid management / director level workplace for a good part of my 33 year management career (so what some will say), and I don't see it the way you do. You are not groomed for every facet of taking on a major promotion unless you were acting in the position for a decent amount of time. You don't just step in. And in this case, the roles of HC can be different from team to team.

          I would not assume anything in that regard.

          Even the very best of leaders took their time to get comfortable in their jobs....

          So on that front, I do not agree with you.....(we haven't had a good debate for a couple of days!!!!)

          I understand what you are saying... I really do. I work for a living, too. But If I'm not qualified for a certain job, than I shouldn't be hired or should have my portfolio reduced. Josh McDaniels was given a HC job with the Denver Broncos. The Goodmans were handling the FO. Even after the Goodmans were let go, Xanders went on camera to feed his ego about his new job. He is supposed to be the GM of this team. I don't think McDaniels is qualified to manage personnel and salary cap (my opinion of Xanders is a whole other story!).


          If he doesn't realize the consequences of taking phone calls regarding a trade for your franchise qb, then he shouldn't be answering the calls, somebody else should be doing it. It all boils down to this, he just didn't want Cutler. Period. Try to justify it all you want, say he was obligated to listen to trade offers, despite how many people have stated that "if you're going to listen to the offer, you'd better pull the trigger." Nobody is obligated to listen to any offers if you are not interested in getting rid of a player. He wanted to get rid of Cutler. Do you honestly think Shanny would have even listened to an offer for Cutler? No way!

          There are major consequences for those actions, Can. Listen to any HC out there who has commented on the subject, they all say the same thing. There is no reason to risk upsetting the balance of the team just to check out what the going rate for a player is. If you were interested enough to find out what the going rate for a player is, than you are interested in getting rid of the player. Whether you get what you want or not is another matter altogether.

          I would have been more accepting if it was handled properly. This thing was botched since the minute he spoke on the phone. He spoke to people that weren't trustworthy, it leaked out and now we are the ones suffering for that mistake. I'm sorry, but that is not a minor mistake and is not acceptable to me. That is just flat out a mistake. The only time something should leak is if it's intentional. This should have never gotten to Jay unless they wanted it to.
          Last edited by acpell671; 05-27-2009, 12:12 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
            Please dont assume my feelings towards Jay. I liked what Jay was growing into. But he is gone. And I dont like what he did when he left.

            I do like where McD is going. Those are my feelings and, yes, I am entitled to them. I have looked at it subjectively and this is how I feel. These are my opinions and they are no more valid or worse than yours.



            It isnt unprecendented. It was done with Jeff George as well. As far as being a Pro Bowl QB, he wouldnt have been if the voting was done after the season. Chad Pennington or (god help me) Philip Rivers would have gone in his place.
            Sorry if I assumed too much, but when you constantly try to discredit an honor that goes to one our players, it sounds like you don't like the guy. The popularity contest argument is reserved for fans whose player didn't get voted in. If Eddie Royal made the Pro Bowl, would you be saying the same thing? Probably not, but there were a lot of other receivers that deserved to go over him. Why take something that our team did good last year and try to take pot shots at it? We were 8-8, not that great, but we did have some good things last year, like 3 of our guys making it to the Pro Bowl. Good for them, good for us!

            Yes, Jeff George... but that was it. "Almost unprecedented" is not "unprecedented." Maybe a better selection of words on my part would have been better.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
              Have you started a job that you were already perfect at?

              I dont know about you, but I havent. Ive very very good at what I do, but if I changed jobs, there would be a learning curve.

              Every single person that has started a new job has had to learn and grow. This includes head coaches.
              The problem is Head Coaches/GMs make BIG decisions that affects the organization for years to come. Cutler making a bad decision on the field... may cost the team a game or two.

              Losing a franchise QB could set the team back for 5-10 years!

              Sure I make mistakes at my job. But if I make a huge mistake like crashing the DB and losing the backup files... guess what? They wouldnt just chauk that up to a rookie mistake.... I would have been escorted out the door.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                Sorry if I assumed too much, but when you constantly try to discredit an honor that goes to one our players, it sounds like you don't like the guy. The popularity contest argument is reserved for fans whose player didn't get voted in. If Eddie Royal made the Pro Bowl, would you be saying the same thing? Probably not, but there were a lot of other receivers that deserved to go over him. Why take something that our team did good last year and try to take pot shots at it? We were 8-8, not that great, but we did have some good things last year, like 3 of our guys making it to the Pro Bowl. Good for them, good for us!

                Yes, Jeff George... but that was it. "Almost unprecedented" is not "unprecedented." Maybe a better selection of words on my part would have been better.
                Excellent post. I have to spread CP around before giving it to you again.
                Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by the-shuffler View Post
                  The problem is Head Coaches/GMs make BIG decisions that affects the organization for years to come. Cutler making a bad decision on the field... may cost the team a game or two.

                  Losing a franchise QB could set the team back for 5-10 years!

                  Sure I make mistakes at my job. But if I make a huge mistake like crashing the DB and losing the backup files... guess what? They wouldnt just chauk that up to a rookie mistake.... I would have been escorted out the door.
                  You talk as if the Broncos are lost for a decade. We dont know if they are or arent. Is Orton as physicality talented? No. Is he smarter and more of a leader? Yes. Is he a better fit for "the system" yes. And name one other position that we dont have better players in?

                  Dont predict they will sink and call it fact. No one knows until into next season what is going to happen.
                  sigpic

                  I adopt andrewmlb.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                    You talk as if the Broncos are lost for a decade. We dont know if they are or arent. Is Orton as physicality talented? No. Is he smarter and more of a leader? Yes. Is he a better fit for "the system" yes. And name one other position that we dont have better players in?

                    Dont predict they will sink and call it fact. No one knows until into next season what is going to happen.
                    Small yard Smash?

                    Can't get enough Bronco talk, eh? Me, too!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                      You talk as if the Broncos are lost for a decade. We dont know if they are or arent. Is Orton as physicality talented? No. Is he smarter and more of a leader? Yes. Is he a better fit for "the system" yes. And name one other position that we dont have better players in?

                      Dont predict they will sink and call it fact. No one knows until into next season what is going to happen.
                      I see the part in bold getting thrown around a lot. Cutler, despite dressing, looking and carrying himself like a bum, is an extemely bright guy. Apart from his Vandy credentials, two extremely respected coaches (Fisher and Shanahan) have spoken highly about his ability to quickly grasp new systems and playbooks. Bear in mind also that Cutler was voted team captain as a second-year player. His teammates have raved about his leadership skills. And as for fitting the system, we ran a lot of the spread last year, and Cutler ran it as well as anyone in the NFL.

                      I think Orton can be a decent option for us at QB, but I don't see why everyone assumes he is smarter than Cutler because he is less talented. If anything, there doesn't appear to be any one asset he has the Cutler doesn't (maybe some forced humility, but I don't know if that's really an asset). However, it is unfair to Orton to compare him to a guy who is in a different class altogether. Like comparing Selvin Young to Adrian Peterson.

                      The replacement for Cutler isn't really Orton (even though they play the same position). The true replacement for Cutler is Moreno, as the spearhead of the offense. The 2009 offense will revolve around Moreno, just as the offense of the past two years revolved around Cutler. I think Moreno has the chance to be as good a RB as Cutler is a QB, which will keep our offense running at a fairly high level this year as well.

                      Orton is going to be to the offense what the running game was for the last couple of years and what Plummer and Griese were before that - a stable foil, but not the focus.
                      Hoping for a defensive-minded head coach and a return to the ZBS on offense. At the very least, no more cheaters for head coach.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                        Sorry if I assumed too much, but when you constantly try to discredit an honor that goes to one our players, it sounds like you don't like the guy. The popularity contest argument is reserved for fans whose player didn't get voted in. If Eddie Royal made the Pro Bowl, would you be saying the same thing? Probably not, but there were a lot of other receivers that deserved to go over him. Why take something that our team did good last year and try to take pot shots at it? We were 8-8, not that great, but we did have some good things last year, like 3 of our guys making it to the Pro Bowl. Good for them, good for us!

                        Yes, Jeff George... but that was it. "Almost unprecedented" is not "unprecedented." Maybe a better selection of words on my part would have been better.
                        I think you have misgauged Smash.......many of us feel the same way about Jay. We loved him, we put up with some of his immaturity in past and we didn't want to lose him. But there are two sides to this story, and to be honest (not that what I say matters here......I don't really lose sleep at a site where people come and go....but I do have feelings for those who I believe are here for the right reasons).....since the episode started, I have lost respect for Jay Cutler as a person. It uncovered some things about him that I thought might be true, but became clear as day once the heat got turned on a bit.

                        So again acpell......I disagree with you. Smash said what a lot of us would say. And in my opinion, there are times when folks here seem to be pushing another button.....and when that starts, it's no longer a good discussion. In this case, I do not believe this is about disliking anyone, so much as we got tired of the immaturity.

                        Intruth, I like almost everyone, and I forgive very easily. But there are times when you lose some interest in folks.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                          I think you have misgauged Smash.......many of us feel the same way about Jay. We loved him, we put up with some of his immaturity in past and we didn't want to lose him. But there are two sides to this story, and to be honest (not that what I say matters here......I don't really lose sleep at a site where people come and go....but I do have feelings for those who I believe are here for the right reasons).....since the episode started, I have lost respect for Jay Cutler as a person. It uncovered some things about him that I thought might be true, but became clear as day once the heat got turned on a bit.

                          So again acpell......I disagree with you. Smash said what a lot of us would say. And in my opinion, there are times when folks here seem to be pushing another button.....and when that starts, it's no longer a good discussion. In this case, I do not believe this is about disliking anyone, so much as we got tired of the immaturity.

                          Intruth, I like almost everyone, and I forgive very easily. But there are times when you lose some interest in folks.
                          I apologized for assuming too much. If I was out of line, I shouldn't have been.

                          However, I'm not sure of what you are disagreeing with. You quoted my post about honors going to our players, so I'll ask you... why is it okay to take something away from somebody just because they screwed up after the fact which had nothing do with their on field performance? I know that you pride yourself on positivity, but how is discrediting our teams past accomplishments so positive?

                          I like Smash, we've had good debate before. It wasn't meant to be personal. It just seems as if he really feels upset about Cutler's actions. I think that's okay and it's okay to own up to it. A lot of people are upset. I am, too. I wish he had grown up a little faster to have been able to handle that situation better.
                          Last edited by acpell671; 05-27-2009, 01:13 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AC1 View Post
                            I think you've hit the nail on the head there. To many passionate Broncos fans, the Cutler issue rankles because of how good he was for us.

                            On a different note, one thing that annoys me (and some others who want to stop talking about Cutler but keep getting dragged back in) is the unnecessary and immature cheap shots that some posters take at him. As a Broncos fan, I always wish players who played for my team well (I still root for Griese in all his position battles; ditto for the likes of Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson, Trevor Pryce etc). I may not like the way Cutler spoke to the media or that he couldn't put his mistrust of McDaniels aside, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a good player for us. Add in the fact that no one knew he was losing 30 pounds over the course of the 2007 season (because he never complained) and the good work he did in the community, I find it very distasteful that people bash him around here the way they do. The strange thing is that Cutler was never among my favorite players on the Broncos, but I find myself defending him because of how others react to him. (Given how much of my time this takes up, I can only hope we never trade Ryan Clady, Chris Kuper or Champ Bailey).
                            I agree with you completely, AC1. Some parts of Cutler's behavior annoyed me, but when people now make comments dismissive of him, I wonder where they were in December. None of us will know what went on between McDaniels and Cutler and it is irrelevant now. We can say that we are sorry he is gone without being so dismissive of him now, after the fact. Cutler may be arrogant, be moody and have a temper, but many leaders share those characteristics. I thought he left a lot of his body on the turf at our new Mile High Stadium.

                            Have been able to cheer for Mike Anderson, Sterling Sharpe and Trevor Price here in Baltimore and expect to cheer for Cutler when he comes to town this Fall. Should be fun to compare the performances of Denver and Chicago against Baltimore.

                            Divorces are tough, even football ones.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post
                              I agree with you completely, AC1. Some parts of Cutler's behavior annoyed me, but when people now make comments dismissive of him, I wonder where they were in December. None of us will know what went on between McDaniels and Cutler and it is irrelevant now. We can say that we are sorry he is gone without being so dismissive of him now, after the fact. Cutler may be arrogant, be moody and have a temper, but many leaders share those characteristics. I thought he left a lot of his body on the turf at our new Mile High Stadium.

                              Have been able to cheer for Mike Anderson, Sterling Sharpe and Trevor Price here in Baltimore and expect to cheer for Cutler when he comes to town this Fall. Should be fun to compare the performances of Denver and Chicago against Baltimore.

                              Divorces are tough, even football ones.
                              Do you mean Shannon Sharpe sir???
                              sigpic
                              Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                                since the episode started, I have lost respect for Jay Cutler as a person. It uncovered some things about him that I thought might be true, but became clear as day once the heat got turned on a bit.
                                See, the opposite is true for quite a few of us out there. Ever since this whole thing started and it was uncovered that McDaniels was straight faced lying to our stud QB, I lost a lot of respect for him. Then the media storm ensued and began to feel like I couldn't trust our new coach. Then the draft came and I lost any of the little respect I had left for the guy. I always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but once the suspect draft picks kept coming I lost hope. I'll say this one last time...it isn't everyday the owner of the team comes out and questions the draft and proclaims that the shiny new coach is making rookie mistakes.

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