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  • Crazy8
    replied
    Originally posted by nea View Post
    Yes I did answer your question a few posts ago. And yes exactly, it is subjective, everyone has different views on what it means, that is why I never mentioned mine superior, ok I probably could have used a different word for those that like to nit-pik these things.And actually An optimist is a person with a positive outlook on life, hence the ones that view these changes with a positive outlook. Me i am neither positive or negative, I am neutral. there you go i am a neutralist!
    Elway was a gunslinger, seen his arm? (well not lately) pure power. Won two Superbowl's. His stats from what I know were lower than Cutlers in his early years, yet he learned and grew. Cutler had TWO full seasons, give me a break with the he couldn't be consistent or reliable, what? his career is what it is and he will never learn? You all talk like he is a vet, career winding down. He has just started, has a lot to learn, with the right teacher, which McDaniels is suppose to be, he will go to the SB probably multiple times. Maybe McDaniels can only work with the weaker ones? Got scared that he couldnt really teach a potentially amazing QB? Brady was good before McDaniels and I think Cassell may be a one trick pony.
    It was when Elway stopped being a gunslinger and started handing the ball off to TD that Elway started winning championships. Elway picked his spots in the passing game, but relied more on his running game to get the job done. What made it great is that Elway did this after carrying his team for so long. He let the team support him.

    When Elway put up his career stats, what was the Broncos record? When Elway averaged 3,256 yards 25 TDs and 12 INTs per season what was the Broncos record? So with the decrease in yards, the increase in TDs and the decrease in INTs, he didn't seem to take nearly as many risks over his last few years. He trusted Shanahan, TD, and the system. That meant championships.

    I'm not saying Cutler can't do the same thing. But, the question is, does Cutler want to do the same thing? At this point? Probably not. Look how long it took Elway to change. Favre never changed.

    You yourself said that McD is supposed to be a "the right teacher". Why? Because McD knows QBs, maybe? But it's easier to think McD doesn't know what he's doing for you. Then you go on to speculate that McD is lesser of a coach because he didn't want Cutler. Well I have a "maybe" for ya. Maybe Cutler isn't smart enough to handle the system. Maybe Cutler doesn't understand what he's supposed to do when he sees zone coverage. Maybe Cutler locks onto his primary receiver and is lazy going to his 2nd and 3rd reads. Maybe Cutler makes too many mistakes.
    Last edited by Crazy8; 06-02-2009, 09:17 AM.

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  • nea
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    So, you don't understand that being a "realist" is subjective? To you, you're a realist. To someone else, you're an idiot. To another guy, you're the smartest person in the world.

    When you talk about the "optimist", it just means someone with a different view. To them, they're the realist, and you're just a pessimist.

    Moving on. Don't confuse an "aggressive QB" with a "QB who can be aggressive". Someone with a gunslinger mentality is aggressive all of the time. When they're on, they can make some of the best throws , but when they're bad, they're really bad. They'll make inexplicable errors because they have that faith and belief that their arm will get them through. I've used Brett Favre as a good example. Great QB. No doubt. But how many championships has he won? One. And that one championship was based on defense and special teams (Desmond Howard ring a bell?). Desmond Howard was the difference in that game as well as defensive turnovers (4 interceptions). Desmond Howard was the MVP of that Superbowl.

    So besides Favre, who is a gunslinger who has won a Superbowl? My point is that you want someone who is more like a Joe Montana or a Tom Brady rather than a Brett Favre. They're more reliable and consistent. They take care of the ball, and rarely force the ball where they shouldn't. Cutler has a tendency to look at his primary receiver and force the football to his primary receiver whether he's open or not.

    BTW, you never answered the question. Do you think Cutler has any flaws? If so, what are they?
    Yes I did answer your question a few posts ago. And yes exactly, it is subjective, everyone has different views on what it means, that is why I never mentioned mine superior, ok I probably could have used a different word for those that like to nit-pik these things.And actually An optimist is a person with a positive outlook on life, hence the ones that view these changes with a positive outlook. Me i am neither positive or negative, I am neutral. there you go i am a neutralist!
    Elway was a gunslinger, seen his arm? (well not lately) pure power. Won two Superbowl's. His stats from what I know were lower than Cutlers in his early years, yet he learned and grew. Cutler had TWO full seasons, give me a break with the he couldn't be consistent or reliable, what? his career is what it is and he will never learn? You all talk like he is a vet, career winding down. He has just started, has a lot to learn, with the right teacher, which McDaniels is suppose to be, he will go to the SB probably multiple times. Maybe McDaniels can only work with the weaker ones? Got scared that he couldnt really teach a potentially amazing QB? Brady was good before McDaniels and I think Cassell may be a one trick pony.
    Last edited by nea; 06-02-2009, 07:19 AM.

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  • broncobruj
    replied
    Originally posted by Blitzmaster View Post

    What about the diabetes over the long haul? How does that mix with his known drinking alcohol and partying? That is a BIG question mark, and you have to wonder if not only McDaniels gave that thought, but Bowlen also? I don't bring this up as a slight against ANYBODY that has diabetes. I only think of this in the business sense as a wise long term investment, and how this conversation might have come up behind closed doors at Dove Valley.


    Then the last thing I will throw out there is how his team mates truly felt about HIM throwing THEM under the bus when they made an error or dropped a ball? Most prominent case of that happening on that Sunday night in SD when we got a 52-21 beating at the hands of our rival Chargers for the division championship. Eddie Royal drops the ball and Cutler starts to rip him on national television. Probably not appreciated by Royal. As hard as Cutler throws the ball, it was probably just as much Cutler's fault as Royals. I wonder from McDaniels (and Bowlen's) perspective if they saw this trait as a flaw and decided he has not only the potential to be the catalyst to build a team around, but also the potential to tear the team apart if he rubs too many people the wrong way in the locker room?
    His drinking is all speculation at this point. Yes there was an article by someone at a local TV station that was later removed because it was probably slander...You're just as much of the problem if all your doing is spreading lies and false accusations. As for the diabetes...it is completely manageable. Look at Cutler from last season compared to him the season before that. What a world of difference knowing what is wrong with you makes...

    As for Cutler getting angry at players on the field...he was voted captain of the team by his peers. He proved himself as a leader on that team. As a leader and the QB, I feel he was well within his rights to rip on a rookie WR who either dropped a pass or ran the wrong route. Does anyone ever question Manning or Brady when they do that?

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  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    I'll give you Manning
    But Plunkett is from the 1970's.
    You've given me 5 "bums" (aka mediocre). That means teams with an average QB win the Superbowl 20% of the time over that period. I prefer boosting those odds to 80% by having a franchise QB (that we just traded).
    Hey, you asked for them and I gave them to you!

    Listen, I have a simple statement here. Joe Montana. Was not the most athletic. Did not have the strongest arm. Was not the fastest.

    But he was the smartest guy on the field. He did make good decisions. He did have good accuracy in the mid passing range.

    He had a coach that knew how to play to his strengths. He had a GM that knew how to draft guys to compliment him.

    Joe Montana was not the most physically gifted QB out there. BUT, with the right TEAM surrounding him and him knowing what his strengths were, he was able to elevate himself and those around him.

    It isnt always about physical gifts. This is why we dont talk about Ryan Leaf or Jeff George anymore.

    It is about a team and a system that fits what your QB can do.

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  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
    Eli Manning (sorry dude, Im in NY, he is a scrub)

    Trent Dilfer

    Brad Johnson

    Mark Rypien

    Jeff Hostetler

    Doug Williams

    Jim Plunkett (he was a wash out most of his career)
    I'll give you Manning
    But Plunkett is from the 1970's.
    You've given me 5 "bums" (aka mediocre). That means teams with an average QB win the Superbowl 20% of the time over that period. I prefer boosting those odds to 80% by having a franchise QB (that we just traded).

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  • DenverGators94
    replied
    I like what McDaniels has done, besides getting rid of Cutler. Even that doesn't seem as bad when you think about the way Cutler acted. Football is about winning and McDaniels was doing what he thought was best for the team. I remember last year about this time I was wondering what the Dolphins were doing getting rid of Jason Talyor and Zach Thomas, two years ago everyone was wondering why they choose Ted Ginn Jr. over Brady Quinn when the cearly needed a QB. This year they made the playoffs.

    The point is that we don't know how something is going to workout without the actual results on the feild. Sure the Dolphins look better on paper with Jason and Zach, they are both great leaders, and they are both great players. The Tuna knew what he was doing, and I believe that McDaniels knows what he is doing.

    Many of you guys and guys on footballsfuture.com are not giving McDaniels and chance at all. I love the Broncos, I will always love the broncos. There is no room in Bronconation for bandwagoners. Stop rooting for McDaniels to lose and start rooting for the Broncos to win.

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  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    Please do tell, what were the number of mediocre QB's that won a Superbowl over the last 25 years? All great QB's have statistically off years. Championships are one by elite QB's MOST of the time. Please tell us a stat the shows mediocre QB's win most of the Superbowls.
    Eli Manning (sorry dude, Im in NY, he is a scrub)

    Trent Dilfer

    Brad Johnson

    Mark Rypien

    Jeff Hostetler

    Doug Williams

    Jim Plunkett (he was a wash out most of his career)

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    SB's

    Originally posted by The Big D View Post
    It means that QB pryotechnics are not needed, or even the most common way, to get a SB win. What wins superbowls is a good team. Sometimes that team also has a good quarterback, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have a good QB coming off a mediocre year or a guy losing a step at the end of his career. Don't forget that's how we won our two SBs.

    Excessive focus on the QB position is not the road to playoff success.
    Please do tell, what were the number of mediocre QB's that won a Superbowl over the last 25 years? All great QB's have statistically off years. Championships are one by elite QB's MOST of the time. Please tell us a stat the shows mediocre QB's win most of the Superbowls.

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  • Crazy8
    replied
    Wow...

    Originally posted by nea View Post
    It makes them optimists, or pessimists, or just plain crazy. Realist just means I see the negative and positives ( if we think there is any) doesnt mean the optimists way is less superior, just more sunny!!
    And in certain situations and against certain teams an aggressive QB is exactly what you need, I want someone with both abilities. Cutler was not giving a chance to succeed or fail, it was just assumed ( I think) that he would not fit. How the he double hockey sticks would anyone know that, the kid only had what two full seasons!!!!!!!! People compare the two which is not fair really as far as team manager, methodical goes, Orton has had more time, just like comparing stats, Orton has had more time and from what I know a better team at times to work with. Cutler has had crap (defense wise, and a season where he was sick without knowing what it was. he needed a chance.
    So, you don't understand that being a "realist" is subjective? To you, you're a realist. To someone else, you're an idiot. To another guy, you're the smartest person in the world.

    When you talk about the "optimist", it just means someone with a different view. To them, they're the realist, and you're just a pessimist.

    Moving on. Don't confuse an "aggressive QB" with a "QB who can be aggressive". Someone with a gunslinger mentality is aggressive all of the time. When they're on, they can make some of the best throws , but when they're bad, they're really bad. They'll make inexplicable errors because they have that faith and belief that their arm will get them through. I've used Brett Favre as a good example. Great QB. No doubt. But how many championships has he won? One. And that one championship was based on defense and special teams (Desmond Howard ring a bell?). Desmond Howard was the difference in that game as well as defensive turnovers (4 interceptions). Desmond Howard was the MVP of that Superbowl.

    So besides Favre, who is a gunslinger who has won a Superbowl? My point is that you want someone who is more like a Joe Montana or a Tom Brady rather than a Brett Favre. They're more reliable and consistent. They take care of the ball, and rarely force the ball where they shouldn't. Cutler has a tendency to look at his primary receiver and force the football to his primary receiver whether he's open or not.

    BTW, you never answered the question. Do you think Cutler has any flaws? If so, what are they?
    Last edited by Crazy8; 06-01-2009, 07:07 PM.

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  • nea
    replied
    Originally posted by Blitzmaster View Post
    Yes I do. And in different ways than you might expect to hear. Cutler IS a great talent at quarterback. Nobody questions that. However...

    What about the diabetes over the long haul? How does that mix with his known drinking alcohol and partying? That is a BIG question mark, and you have to wonder if not only McDaniels gave that thought, but Bowlen also? I don't bring this up as a slight against ANYBODY that has diabetes. I only think of this in the business sense as a wise long term investment, and how this conversation might have come up behind closed doors at Dove Valley.

    I read an article not long ago about Cutler's mechanics in the throwing motion. It was brought up that Cutler does not have a perfect throwing motion holding the ball so low as the starting point through the throw. It was brought up in, and elaborated on, that because of the motion that Cutler has he might injure his arm or shoulder within the next couple years throwing at the pace he has been so far in his career, with the torque he can generate when he slings the football. Is it possible that McDaniels might have recognized this, or at least given it some thought? They asked the same question in the article given McDaniels' knowledge of QB's having coached them at NE.

    Then the last thing I will throw out there is how his team mates truly felt about HIM throwing THEM under the bus when they made an error or dropped a ball? Most prominent case of that happening on that Sunday night in SD when we got a 52-21 beating at the hands of our rival Chargers for the division championship. Eddie Royal drops the ball and Cutler starts to rip him on national television. Probably not appreciated by Royal. As hard as Cutler throws the ball, it was probably just as much Cutler's fault as Royals. I wonder from McDaniels (and Bowlen's) perspective if they saw this trait as a flaw and decided he has not only the potential to be the catalyst to build a team around, but also the potential to tear the team apart if he rubs too many people the wrong way in the locker room?

    These are all fair questions. There would be no RIGHT answer since none of this played out. Unknowns. But since you asked the question, these are my thoughts.
    The drinking I was told is purely speculation as far as to how much. A few are ok from what my mom has said.And considering some other teammates issues that are clearly affecting the team (Marshall for one) it seems it isnt fair to speculate without hard proof.

    The rest, well being that he was only a starter two years, all the above can be worked on. As far as his treatment of the team, he knows they are the best and expected the best, he has relationships with Royal and Marshall and a few others and from what I know still does. That to me isn't a character flaw but a concern for what's going on, no he shouldn't be ripping them on TV but again, more time to learn. Again if he was 6-10 year vet I could see the wondering, but he to me ,is still a newbee that needs work, he was not given that opportunity.

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  • Blitzmaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    I have a question though. I don't know if it's fair, but I'd like to know if you thought Cutler had any weaknesses. If so, what were they?
    Yes I do. And in different ways than you might expect to hear. Cutler IS a great talent at quarterback. Nobody questions that. However...

    What about the diabetes over the long haul? How does that mix with his known drinking alcohol and partying? That is a BIG question mark, and you have to wonder if not only McDaniels gave that thought, but Bowlen also? I don't bring this up as a slight against ANYBODY that has diabetes. I only think of this in the business sense as a wise long term investment, and how this conversation might have come up behind closed doors at Dove Valley.

    I read an article not long ago about Cutler's mechanics in the throwing motion. It was brought up that Cutler does not have a perfect throwing motion holding the ball so low as the starting point through the throw. It was brought up in, and elaborated on, that because of the motion that Cutler has he might injure his arm or shoulder within the next couple years throwing at the pace he has been so far in his career, with the torque he can generate when he slings the football. Is it possible that McDaniels might have recognized this, or at least given it some thought? They asked the same question in the article given McDaniels' knowledge of QB's having coached them at NE.

    Then the last thing I will throw out there is how his team mates truly felt about HIM throwing THEM under the bus when they made an error or dropped a ball? Most prominent case of that happening on that Sunday night in SD when we got a 52-21 beating at the hands of our rival Chargers for the division championship. Eddie Royal drops the ball and Cutler starts to rip him on national television. Probably not appreciated by Royal. As hard as Cutler throws the ball, it was probably just as much Cutler's fault as Royals. I wonder from McDaniels (and Bowlen's) perspective if they saw this trait as a flaw and decided he has not only the potential to be the catalyst to build a team around, but also the potential to tear the team apart if he rubs too many people the wrong way in the locker room?

    These are all fair questions. There would be no RIGHT answer since none of this played out. Unknowns. But since you asked the question, these are my thoughts.

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  • nea
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    Well, calling yourself a "realist" and suggesting other people are not is suggesting that your opinion is superior. Because, if you're the "realist", what does that make someone who doesn't share your opinion?

    Orton is not better than Cutler from a physical, or a skills perspective. I agree with you. But Orton is probably better than Cutler in a few ways. Cutler's a very aggressive QB. Orton's more patient and methodical. I think that suits the system better.

    More of a methodical, grind-it-out offense mixed with our thin-air will mean some tired defenses.
    It makes them optimists, or pessimists, or just plain crazy. Realist just means I see the negative and positives ( if we think there is any) doesnt mean the optimists way is less superior, just more sunny!!
    And in certain situations and against certain teams an aggressive QB is exactly what you need, I want someone with both abilities. Cutler was not giving a chance to succeed or fail, it was just assumed ( I think) that he would not fit. How the he double hockey sticks would anyone know that, the kid only had what two full seasons!!!!!!!! People compare the two which is not fair really as far as team manager, methodical goes, Orton has had more time, just like comparing stats, Orton has had more time and from what I know a better team at times to work with. Cutler has had crap (defense wise, and a season where he was sick without knowing what it was. he needed a chance.

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  • Crazy8
    replied
    Originally posted by nea View Post
    Again where did I say it is superior? You know what they say about assuming!
    I see it for what it is, it can go either way. But I am sorry saying Orton is better than Cutler is way off. I have never said Orton is bad, just ok and boring. I don't want them to be just decent, I want them dangerous and I dont think it is there yet, certainly not with Orton. Someday we will find "the" guy again. And they cant put it all on Orton or we will fail, we have to have the D to stop the other team from scoring. I am not sure how Marshall and Royal will do with Orton, I am not sure they will get the yards they are used to. From what I have heard Orton's deep ball sucks.
    Well, calling yourself a "realist" and suggesting other people are not is suggesting that your opinion is superior. Because, if you're the "realist", what does that make someone who doesn't share your opinion?

    Orton is not better than Cutler from a physical, or a skills perspective. I agree with you. But Orton is probably better than Cutler in a few ways. Cutler's a very aggressive QB. Orton's more patient and methodical. I think that suits the system better.

    More of a methodical, grind-it-out offense mixed with our thin-air will mean some tired defenses.

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  • nea
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    I agree with that. You don't have to like what's happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you think we had a great thing (especially on offense) last year. You would've been happy for McD to come in, don't touch the offensive side of the ball and build the defense. I completely understand. I don't agree, but I understand.

    I simply think that for whatever the reason, last year we were 8 and 8.

    I have a question though. I don't know if it's fair, but I'd like to know if you thought Cutler had any weaknesses. If so, what were they?
    I think he miscalculated the others team defense too often, maybe over trusting what Marshall and others can do or what he could do in certain situations. I don't blame him for all the interceptions, some were on the mark the receivers just didn't deliver. I think sometimes he needed better control of the arm, and how hard he threw it. I will say I loved watching him, that strength, and how good he is out of the pocket. I didn't like that sometimes he would risk himself by running the ball, like Elway did, but I guess sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands. I think with more work (yes some on offense, but that does not include giving up our QB) we would have gone all the way. But it wasn't givin a chance, not even a season.

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  • nea
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    I get that, but I don't see why your self-proclaimed "realist" outlook is superior above someone who thinks we'll be good this year? Nobody knows.

    My particular opinion is that I don't think it's unrealistic for us to be a 7 to 9 win team this year. I'm basing this on a few things such as our O-line, our receivers, and our secondary. I don't think Kyle Orton is great by any means. But, I also don't think we need Kyle Orton to be great. It's my opinion that all we need from Kyle Orton is for him to be efficient. We simply need him to be patient, move the chains, and avoid making mistakes. I believe he's capable of that.

    As far as our defense. Scheme can only take you so far, but it helps. We have some unrealized potential in the front 7. I don't think we're going to be stellar in the front 7, but I don't think we need to be. I think we simply need to be adequate and don't give up big plays. I believe we have potential to generate a few more turnovers based on our secondary alone

    I honestly don't know what we'll be this season, but I see potential for the Broncos to be decent. Not great, but decent. I don't see it as a huge step back.

    The only way I see it as a huge step back is if we try to win like we won last year. If we put everything on Orton's shoulders, then I agree that we'll be very disappointed. But, if things are called right, and we have a good offensive balance that leans a little more to the run. If we focus on time of possession, and we don't make stupid mistakes, I think we'll be alright. I think Orton can make some plays and help us win, but we can't put it all on Orton.
    Again where did I say it is superior? You know what they say about assuming!
    I see it for what it is, it can go either way. But I am sorry saying Orton is better than Cutler is way off. I have never said Orton is bad, just ok and boring. I don't want them to be just decent, I want them dangerous and I dont think it is there yet, certainly not with Orton. Someday we will find "the" guy again. And they cant put it all on Orton or we will fail, we have to have the D to stop the other team from scoring. I am not sure how Marshall and Royal will do with Orton, I am not sure they will get the yards they are used to. From what I have heard Orton's deep ball sucks.

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