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  • -Rod-
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    In order to be a franchise QB you have to have a certain athletic skill set.
    Sorry, but an "athletic skill set" is the last thing a franchise QB needs. I am sure Vince Young and Michael Vick are pretty athletic. But what about the rest? Character, leadership, pocket presence, accuracy, decision making? Do you consider Tom Brady an athletic guy? Or an awesome pocket passer?

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    Orton a championship caliber QB?

    I'm not saying Orton couldn't be a part of a SB team. Look at Trent Dilfer or Stan Humphries. It can be done.

    But Orton is certainly not an elite QB like a Brady or an Elway. He is a dink and dunk game manager. Not knocking him that's just a fact.

    Who defines what an elite QB? Guys like Jaworski, Aikman, and Phil Simms.
    They have seen three years of Cutler and have said he's on his way to being a franchise QB. In order to be a franchise QB you have to have a certain athletic skill set. Orton doesn't have those skills according to people who are the most knowledgeable about what defines a franchise QB.

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  • -Rod-
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    McD let his ego get in the way in his dealings with Cutler.
    Hmmm... Wasn't the other way around?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mile High Jedi
    replied
    No QB in history has led a team to more Superbowls then John Elway.

    But he couldn't win them all by himself now could he?
    That's why there is no single championship mentioned that was won by an individual.

    If the main component for a Championship team was an elite QB, then the Colts should have a whole lot more trophies then just the one, becuse you don't get much better then Peyton Manning.

    Whose to say Orton (or Simms) cannot become a Championship-calibur QB?
    What if Tom Brady had gone to a team like the Bears rather then Billichek's Patriots? Kyle Orton's draft value was higher then Brady's (not that they were taken the same year, but for what that's worth).
    Chris Simms led a pretty strong College campaign and was progressing well in his pro career until his injury.

    A great team can even make an unproven talent seem pretty good (see Matt Cassell in '08- McDaniels being and insturmental part of that too)

    Cutler is a talented QB, but he also had the luxury of getting picked up by a QB-friendly Broncos Team.
    Supposed 'superstar QB' Jamarcus Russell went to the Raiders a year later at #1 in a very unfriendly QB environment... look what that's doing for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    A total team is important

    Originally posted by McSmashie View Post

    No one person wins Super Bowls. Aikman, great QB but also surrounded by a great team (thank you Herschel Walker trade). It is about the whole team. Your QB may be your focal point, but you have to have the surrounding pieces in order to win.
    That's a great point. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, look at Marino's career.

    But my point is that when you look at the statistics, most of the time you need a franchise QB to win championships. Bradshaw with the Steelers, Montana with the 49ers, Aikman and Dallas, Elway and Denver, Brady and NE, Roethisburger and Pittsburgh. All those teams had surrounded their QB with talent. BUT, the building block to any championship team is the QB. When you have one you do what it takes to keep one. McD let his ego get in the way in his dealings with Cutler. Statistically speaking we won't be a championship level team until we get another franchise QB.

    Leave a comment:


  • McSmashie
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    I would argue that in that meeting where McD was supposed to make nice with Cutler he screwed it up by letting his ego get involved. But that is really Bowlen's fault. Why would Bowlen let a rookie head coach meet his disgruntled QB one-on-one. Clearly, there were egos involved and the owner should have been involved in that meeting. You don't let a rookie head coach determine the fate of your franchise. Cutler was under contract. If Bowlen had put his foot down with McD I guarantee Cutler would be under center for the Broncos.

    But to me, an elite QB is one that has the skills and talent to carry a team. Elway is the perfect example. He willed his team to win and had the talent and skills to do that. How many QB's can do that? A "decent" QB can't do that.

    Past 20 SB winners:
    1989 - SF, Joe Montana
    1990 - SF, Joe Montana
    1991 -
    1992 -
    1993 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1994 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1995 - SF, Steve Young
    1996 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1997 - GB, Brett Favre
    1998 - Denver, John Elway
    1999 - Denver, John Elway
    2000 - St. Louis, Kurt Warner
    2001 - Baltimore
    2002 - NE, Tom Brady
    2003 -
    2004 - NE, Tom Brady
    2005 - NE, Tom Brady
    2006 - Pittsburgh, Ben Roethlisburger
    2007 - Indianapolis, Peyton Manning
    2008 - NY, Eli Manning
    2009 - Pittsuburgh, Ben Roethlisburger
    Im just dont think Eli Manning is an "elite" QB. He had a smoking game against the Pats, yes, but he was also helped with a miracle reception and a major defense.

    Big Ben, love the guy, but he is surrounded by a great organization. I dont think he elevates a team completely on his own. His first SB, he was asked to just not lose it. He has a dominate run game and a dominate defense in support. I think you throw him on Oakland and he isnt a 2 time SB winner. He is benefitted by those around him. That team elevates one another.

    Kurt Warner has had his ups and downs over the years. But one thing is consistent, he has never elevated a mediocre team. This past AZ team had alot of good pieces on it and his tenure in St Louis....well they were just an elite franchise at the time. But he was never able to do anything in NY.

    No one person wins Super Bowls. Aikman, great QB but also surrounded by a great team (thank you Herschel Walker trade). It is about the whole team. Your QB may be your focal point, but you have to have the surrounding pieces in order to win.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    Originally posted by Mile High Jedi View Post
    If 'elite' QBs only surface every 10 years, then most of those games should have been won by only two teams... right?

    Would that also mean that Eli Manning and Ben Rothlesberger surfaced too early? Or since both of them have won Superbowls, does that mean Jay should even be a contender for an 'elite' status because he missed the 'window'?

    :2cents:


    I would argue that in that meeting where McD was supposed to make nice with Cutler he screwed it up by letting his ego get involved. But that is really Bowlen's fault. Why would Bowlen let a rookie head coach meet his disgruntled QB one-on-one. Clearly, there were egos involved and the owner should have been involved in that meeting. You don't let a rookie head coach determine the fate of your franchise. Cutler was under contract. If Bowlen had put his foot down with McD I guarantee Cutler would be under center for the Broncos.

    But to me, an elite QB is one that has the skills and talent to carry a team. Elway is the perfect example. He willed his team to win and had the talent and skills to do that. How many QB's can do that? A "decent" QB can't do that.

    Past 20 SB winners:
    1989 - SF, Joe Montana
    1990 - SF, Joe Montana
    1991 -
    1992 -
    1993 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1994 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1995 - SF, Steve Young
    1996 - Dallas, Troy Aikman
    1997 - GB, Brett Favre
    1998 - Denver, John Elway
    1999 - Denver, John Elway
    2000 - St. Louis, Kurt Warner
    2001 - Baltimore
    2002 - NE, Tom Brady
    2003 -
    2004 - NE, Tom Brady
    2005 - NE, Tom Brady
    2006 - Pittsburgh, Ben Roethlisburger
    2007 - Indianapolis, Peyton Manning
    2008 - NY, Eli Manning
    2009 - Pittsuburgh, Ben Roethlisburger

    Leave a comment:


  • Mile High Jedi
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoinseattle View Post
    Great thread. For me, it's not about Cutler. It's about McD's judgement.
    According to guys like Jaworski and Aikman this guy is on his way to being an elite QB. Elite QB's come along once a decade. You don't trade elite QB's.
    Why? Because they win championships! Look at the last 20 Superbowls. 17 out of 20 of them were won by teams with QB's that are either in the Hall of Fame or will be in the Hall of Fame. I keep hearing that Orton will be a "decent QB". Well, statistically speaking decent QB's don't win Superbowls.
    If 'elite' QBs only surface every 10 years, then most of those games should have been won by only two teams... right?

    Would that also mean that Eli Manning and Ben Rothlesberger surfaced too early? Or since both of them have won Superbowls, does that mean Jay should even be a contender for an 'elite' status because he missed the 'window'?

    And of the last 20 Superbowls that were won, how good were the Defenses on those teams? My point is, it takes a lot more then an elite QB to win a Championship, and any of the 'Elites' would tell you so.

    ....

    I would agree that logic suggests you don't trade away a QB with Jay's talent and potential, but what if he doesn't want to play for your team anymore?

    Would you pay him to sit? And if so, how does that put your team in better contention to win a Superbowl? Mainly becuse you have a ProBowl QB on your roster who'd rather be elsewhere then playing for you?

    That is certainly not a formula for success, any more then it is allowing a single player to dictate the conditions in which he will play. (a lesson T.O. well likely never learn) Regardless of who's side of the Cutler debacle you choose, the TEAM as a whole is paramount to a Head Coach's concerns. A QB (on the other hand) has the luxury of deciding wether that concern is his as well. But when the two don't match up... well we all know too well what happens then.

    :2cents:
    Last edited by Mile High Jedi; 05-30-2009, 04:28 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoinseattle
    replied
    Championships are won with a Cutler not an Orton

    Great thread. For me, it's not about Cutler. It's about McD's judgement.
    According to guys like Jaworski and Aikman this guy is on his way to being an elite QB. Elite QB's come along once a decade. You don't trade elite QB's.
    Why? Because they win championships! Look at the last 20 Superbowls. 17 out of 20 of them were won by teams with QB's that are either in the Hall of Fame or will be in the Hall of Fame. I keep hearing that Orton will be a "decent QB". Well, statistically speaking decent QB's don't win Superbowls.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldster
    replied
    Originally posted by Lvegasbronco78 View Post
    lortab works great, sensitivity to light, 3rd grade a little rough? come on man! Is that all you can say? waste of a huge ass poster of a awsome lineman for a weak, weak comment!! try hooked on phonics/chronics, shoot might hepl with the headache's huh!
    Wow, my headache just shot down to having a pain in the butt.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lvegasbronco78
    replied
    Originally posted by Brody Epic View Post
    Fair enough, but I will take my Lonny Paxton, 43 RBs on the Roster, unprotected 1st round Draft Pick, potshots as per usual. Here's to a 10 win 09.
    Its a tough schedule but that would great to get 10 n 09' shoot beat the afc west at least once, especially the chargers and I will give mcdaniels a slight break! can't wait to see knowshon tear it up, especially after losing j.j.arrington.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lvegasbronco78
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post
    I'm sorry, but reading this post just gave me a headache.

    (And I'm one of the Cutler supporters)
    lortab works great, sensitivity to light, 3rd grade a little rough? come on man! Is that all you can say? waste of a huge ass poster of a awsome lineman for a weak, weak comment!! try hooked on phonics/chronics, shoot might hepl with the headache's huh!

    Leave a comment:


  • AC1
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    Well, I'm not so sure about that. Look how BB handled Deion Branch. Deion holds out for more money, and what happens? Next thing you know, Branch is wearing Seattle colors.

    They ask Lawyer Milloy (a Pro Bowl caliber safety btw) to take a 1.5 million dollar pay cut. He doesn't. Next thing you know, Milloy is in a Bills uniform. Then you have Tom Jackson from ESPN saying "The Patriots players hate Bill Belichick".

    This was over money. Nobody made a stink for the team that Cutler did. I have to imagine if Belichick were the coach, Cutler would be gone just the same. I think Belichick would've been a lot more decisive about it instead of letting the situation drag out.

    Here's the difference when it comes to Bill Belichick. Belichick is right more times than not. We don't know if McD is right or wrong yet. There really isn't a choice except to see what happens.
    The Cutler situation wasn't about money, it was about communication. Belichick wouldn't have been bothered about trying to show Cutler who the boss was. Good leaders know how to give respect and command respect at the same time. Belichick wouldn't have gotten along with divas like Lawrence Taylor, Randy Moss, Corey Dillon and Tom Brady if he didn't. He is able to soothe their ego, while commanding respect from them.

    Not being able to command a player's respect was one of the biggest concern everyone had when McDaniels was hired. The same concern was expressed about Raheem Morris as well. The latter didn't react to it, but it seems that the former has gone out of his way to show that he is the boss of his team, and validated the concern indirectly.

    Leave a comment:


  • the-shuffler
    replied
    Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    I have to believe extending Bledsoe wasn't Belichick's call. He started coaching the team in 2000. I'm not sure Belichick had control enough to say yes or no to front office decisions at that time. It's pretty well documented that Bledsoe drove Belichick insane. My source is a Charlie Weis actually. I'm sure he was in the meetings somewhere considering he coached them.

    Brady got hurt against Pittsburgh, and Bledsoe came back in. According to the stat sheet, Bledsoe did good, but he made some of his trademark errors that Pittsburgh didn't capitalize on. So Belichick had that comparison and thought it best to stick with Brady.

    To be honest, it was Brady not screwing up that kept him in the game. Brady in 15 games threw for 2,843 yards 18 TDs and 12 Ints in 2001. Those are very Kyle Orton like numbers wouldn't you say?

    So, why replace a record-setting Pro Bowl caliber QB with someone who puts up numbers like Kyle Orton?

    My point is that we've seen this before. It's not unprecedented. A strong-armed, record-setting, Pro Bowl QB replaced by a guy who can't even pass for 3,000 yards in a season. I'm sure there was a Patriots fan just like you pointing at the numbers calling Belichick a fool for getting rid of Drew Bledsoe.

    Also, keep in mind that Belichick also got rid of Bernie Kosar while in Cleveland and went with Vinnie Testeverde.

    For some reason, it doesn't matter who you are as a QB. If you're not their type of QB, you're going to be gone.
    1) The point is that putting in Brady was not Bellichicks decision. Brady was in, because Bledsoe got injured
    2) Bledsoe was signed to 100 million the months before he got injured. That is not an indication of the team planning on dumping him.
    3) Bledsoe was still on the team... if Brady did poorly.
    4) Bellichick had proven that the Pats could win with Brady... BEFORE he got rid of Bledsoe

    1) In this scenario, McDaniels had a hand in Cutler leaving.
    2) Cutler did not receive such a commitment from McDaniels/Broncos
    3) If Kyle doesnt pan out... well... too bad. You cant go back to your Probowl QB.
    4) It has not been proven, nor is it given that you guys can win without Cutler.

    The Scenarios are completely different... which is why it Doesnt make sense to compare the two situations.
    Last edited by the-shuffler; 05-29-2009, 01:18 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crazy8
    replied
    Originally posted by AC1 View Post
    I think it is extremely naive to think that belichick would have handled Cutler even remotely the way McDaniels did. Comparing the benching of an above-average starter in the second half of his career, with the alienating and trading away of a 25-year-old QB, widely regarded as one of the best young QBs in the game is quite erroneous IMO. Shanahan's benching of Plummer might be a better parallel for the Bledsoe benching.

    Belichick is a man with a huge ego. But he doesn't let it get in the way of putting the best possible team on the field. Mangini and McDaniels come across as guys mimicing the first part, without bothering to understand the second.
    Well, I'm not so sure about that. Look how BB handled Deion Branch. Deion holds out for more money, and what happens? Next thing you know, Branch is wearing Seattle colors.

    They ask Lawyer Milloy (a Pro Bowl caliber safety btw) to take a 1.5 million dollar pay cut. He doesn't. Next thing you know, Milloy is in a Bills uniform. Then you have Tom Jackson from ESPN saying "The Patriots players hate Bill Belichick".

    This was over money. Nobody made a stink for the team that Cutler did. I have to imagine if Belichick were the coach, Cutler would be gone just the same. I think Belichick would've been a lot more decisive about it instead of letting the situation drag out.

    Here's the difference when it comes to Bill Belichick. Belichick is right more times than not. We don't know if McD is right or wrong yet. There really isn't a choice except to see what happens.

    Leave a comment:

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