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  • Originally posted by Apoc13 View Post
    anybody care to guess where the steelers finished in points scored this past season?

    but roethisberger is a winner, right? oy....you people need to get a grip

    i guess a great defense will make even the most average of qbs look like hall of famers...funny how that works, huh?

    That is called being a TEAM, rothesburger knows that no matter how big he is he is only on the field for 1/2 of the game. During which there are 10 other guys with him. So bing mad that J is the only star on this team, shows you how far shannahan slipped into mediocracy, and that someone needed to come in shake things up and make this back into a team, and weed out the selfish players............now why would you think that is what is happening is bad again? Sorry that he is shaking up a selfish player that everone likes. You just admitted it, winning TEAMS, don't need an all star QB to win, it helps for sure, but isn't a nessicity. They need a team player who will work through adversity, to get better, not have his feelers hurt because his right of entitlement was questioned.

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    • Originally posted by Pratama View Post
      Actually - - Jay is making a TERRIBLE business decision right now. If he were making a good business decision, he would say that he is going to go out and prove to McD what a big mistake it was to try and trade him. He would prove that he is a good teammate and loves his fans. If he were making a good business decision, he would definatively prove that he is more than a one season wonder (I am not saying he is, just that its his first probowl year) and get back to the Pro-Bowl and make McD look like a dumba$$. If he did that, he would rub McD's face in it all year and the talking heads would be saying "this is the guy you tried to trade???". If Jay were making a smart business decision he would remove any seeds of doubt about whether he is a Diva, whether his diabetes is going to catch up with him, whether he can post a winning record as a QB.

      Can you imagine Jay's leverage if he played well and was in the final year of his contract? He would get one of the biggest contracts in NFL history and could pick which team he wants to play for. THAT would be a good business decision.

      But its starting to feel like Jay and Bus may not have confidence in Jay's ability to get back to the Probowl, so they want to strike while the iron is hot. While his stock is at the highest he thinks it will ever be. This is a bad business decision (longevity wise) because he might earn himself a one way ticket to Detroit or Cleveland. And what if he doesnt like it there? Or if they cant win? Demand a trade again? Blame his defense, again?

      CP to ya. Excellent point ans one that is largely overlooked by all of the folks with blinders on, on this board.

      To piggyback on your point, if Jay gets traded to another team and doesn't have huge success, which is more than likely when you look at teams like Detroit and Cleveland, or Tampa, then BOOM. Gone is his credibility and his shot at the big check.

      It really is in Jay's best interest for Jay to succeed in McD's system, and then cash in.
      Individual commitment to a group effort - that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work.

      It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

      Vince Lombardi

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      • Deion Sanders is a princess. I can't take the guy seriously.
        Kenny McKinley: Eleven Forever.
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        • Some Simple facts!

          Pat Bowlen is obviously perfectly willing to back his coach and trade Cutler. McDaniels is getting ready to "move on and get ready for the season." Jay's agent wants more money from another team. Jay expected McDaniels to acknowledge that he did in fact want Matt Cassel instead of him and tell Jay that he's sorry about how he handled things and now they have to move on. Obviously, that is beyond McDaniels' character. He can't admit he's wrong. Ever. And, Jay is obviously not just going to "get over it."

          So, blame who you will, this isn't going to have a happy ending for Bronco fans.

          The question is. What are the Broncos real chances of replacing Jay Cutler with anybody as good and what chance do they ultimately have of winning a SB without him?

          Want to know what Cutler's real value is?
          Which teams would be interested in Cutler? It might be easier to count the teams who already have franchise quarterbacks.

          Teams who figure to have untouchable passers are New England (Tom Brady), Indianapolis (Peyton Manning), New Orleans (Drew Brees), the New York Giants (Eli Manning), San Diego (Philip Rivers), Pittsburgh (Ben Roethlisberger), Cincinnati (Carson Palmer), Green Bay (Aaron Rodgers), Atlanta (Matt Ryan) and Baltimore (Joe Flacco).
          Now, do you think the OTHER 21 teams in the league who DON'T have franchise QBs are all run by idiots?

          Were SB winning coaches - Jon Gruden and Brian Billick morons? They got fired because they couldn't find or create a reliable franchise QB. It's just incredibly difficult to find one.

          They tried. Billick tied his hopes to Kyle Boller who was a first round draft pick. Gruden tried every FA QB on the market. None of them worked. Boller tanked. They were both fired.

          There are LOTs of "also-rans" in the NFL. Guys like Kerry Collins or Brian Griese. They might have a good season or two and help your team but you can't just plug them into the lineup for the next ten seasons and forget about the QB position. It's always a question of WHEN they are going to screw up and ruin your playoff chances NOT IF -- and then there are just the guys like Kyle Boller or Rex Grossman whose "potential" never pans out.

          Fans in Denver better get used to HOPING for Jake Plummer level talent -- a guy nearing the end of his career, who has failed in some other city and then hope that in the right scheme the team can get by. Maybe for a couple of years.

          Mike Shanahan realized the limitations of that: "I just felt we were about as good as we were going to get offensively" he said after the 2005 season. And it just hadn't been good enough with Jake, so he went out and brilliantly drafted for Jay. And he got incredibly lucky.

          That year there were THREE potential franchise QBs available in Vince Young, Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler. The Titans screwed up and took Young #1. The Raiders at #7 passed on Cutler and took and took S Michael Huff. In 2007, Davis decided to draft his QB #1 overall in JaMarcus Russell.

          Then Arizona took Leinart, who is relegated to the bench after floundering so far in AZ. Vince Young also lost his job to ever-wandering journeyman Kerry Collins.

          If Denver gets lucky: get used to waiting another 3 or 4 years until some rookie QB Denver drafts in 2009 is ready to lead the team to a SB -- sometime in 2012 or 2013 perhaps.

          Until then it's FA.

          Know how often a team has been able to "get by" with a QB and win the SB in the last 17 years? TWICE!

          TWO TIMES the SB Champion had QBs named Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. The rest of the time?


          1993 - Troy Aikman
          1994 - Troy Aikman
          1995 - Steve Young
          1996 - Troy Aikman
          1997 - Brett Farve
          1998 - John Elway
          1999 - John Elway
          2000 - Kurt Warner
          2001 - Trent Dilfer
          2002 - Tom Brady
          2003 - Brad Johnson
          2004 - Tom Brady
          2005 - Tom Brady
          2006 - Ben Roethlisberger
          2007 - Peyton Manning
          2008 - Eli Manning
          2009 - Ben Roethlisberger


          Out of that list, how many QBs would NOT be classified as career franchise QBs with multiple playoff appearances? Just Dilfer and Johnson.

          And those teams won by having the best two defensive teams of the last decade, the Ravens by having probably the best overall defense in NFL history (they certainly set all the records that year).

          So, realistically, unless Denver somehow finds ANOTHER franchise QB with equal skill to Cutler they are simply screwed -- unless somehow Nolan and Brian Xanders and McDaniels get the 2000 Ravens' defense. Me either.

          Pat Bowlen will just sit back and do what 21 owners around the league with NO franchise QB do.

          They take the fans' money knowing that the team realistically has NO chance of winning the SB in the near future. And then they go on that long lonely search for a guy who can fill those shoes. Sometimes you get lucky, and sometimes not.

          So, if you want to believe that lightning will strike twice in the same place or kid yourself that Cutler really isn't all that great, go ahead.

          TWENTY ONE NFL GMs disagree with you! They all want Cutler for their team, because they realize how difficult it is to find anyone that talented.

          Elway Weighs In: Speaking at a fundraising event in Pueblo, Elway said, “I’m disappointed for both sides, I look at the Denver Broncos organization as the best in the NFL, as well as Jay Cutler as (one of) the top five quarterbacks in the league.”
          But, what the hell would Elway know? Top 5 QB? Hell no! Jay's just a "whiner!" Get rid of him! "He hasn't won a single playoff game!" Etc.

          But, get used to a LONG time in the wilderness without him. As for me, if this team falls apart after they trade Jay, I'm just not going to buy any Broncos tickets for a few years.

          Do what you want. I refuse to reward management failure with my hard earned money. That doesn't mean I'm not a Broncos fan. I've been a fan of this team since 1977. But, they broke it. And now it's up to them to fix it.
          Last edited by Cugel; 03-20-2009, 07:55 AM.
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          • As much as i HATE to do it I will. I agree with the charger fans, they are closer to unconditional central thinking than some of my fellow bronco fans who have man crushes on cutler and think he can do no wrong. The orange glasses are fogging the reality that if cutler wanted to stay with the team, he would have never let Bowlen's calls even make it to voice mail, he would of been on it ASAP, if not back in denver seeing what was up and what need work. Instead he made sure that his agent (acting lawyer to some point) could get him out of town with out risking insubordination and contract language.

            If cutler WANTED to be here he would be working out. He wouldn't refuse to meet unless his agent was present. He would have addressed the team on the first day and been a leader. He wouldn't of put his house for sale BEFORE the make up meeting. He wouldn't be making comments to the Media, before returning callse to the Bronco's front office.

            When McDaniels was asked "did you try to trade me" and McDaniels said NO that isn't a lie. Trying to trade someone is calling, making offers, and being ACTIVE. Recieving a phone call, maybee even telling what it would take to trade isn't trying to trade.

            Think of it this way, a telemarketer calls you at home, and wants to sell you some "girls gone wild videos" and you are in the recliner watching the tube, and you say No i don't want them, and they start sweetening the deal, then you say no, and they say what do you want before you'll buy these videos, and you say it would have to be hand delivered by pam anderson in a G string. They say well i can't make that happen, you say alright and hang up the phone. your wife walks over and says "were you trying to buy Girls gone wild videos" you say No, they called me, I just listened and said No. She says you are lying, and you say watch i bet they never show up in the mail.

            Mean while the producer really wants to sell the videos so he calls and talks to Pam, then her publicist leaks that she was offered a lot of money to deliver the video's to YOUR house.

            Are you a lier, for listening on the phone, and entertaining the offer?

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            • You can tell who's got the most pride here. Jay wasn't the one lying.
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              • Originally posted by stargazer View Post
                John Elway thinks Jay Cutler is a top 5 QB. He's stupid.

                How dare you?
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                • Originally posted by Momentum View Post
                  Cutler trade demand 1 - The offensive coordinator is fired

                  Cutler trade demand 2 - His name came up in trade talks (weird how he gets mad after he demands a trade?)

                  Cutler trade demand 3 - After he and Bus meet "one on one" with McDaniels.

                  But we'll ignore this.

                  Ok, once again. Please provide a link proving that Cutler demanded a trade after Bates left? One other than Peter "Moron" King's assertion of this "fact". The same one, mind you, that he has yet to provide a credible source for.


                  "He's not a respectable guy right now, because you talk too much trash and do this and that, but you're really not a great player in this league right now.

                  "You're surrounded by great players, but you're not a great player. I think he needs to understand where he stands in this league — where he stands on his team first and foremost."
                  - Champ Bailey re Philip Rivers

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                  • Many people if not most people would rather die than admit publicly that they were wrong. And ESPECIALLY People in authority.

                    How many people actually chose to die in life or death situations rather than look bad or admit fault? It's really amazingly sad sometimes.

                    Take a look at Bush for instance. Or anyone in public life really. How often do you see people man up and say "I screwed up! I handled this badly and I'm sorry!"

                    As for McDaniels, he feels he was right. So why should he apologize? That would "undermine my authority." That real authority comes from respect that is earned, not from simple power "because I'm the boss and I say so!" is not a concept that enters his head.

                    That he might have done something differently does not occur to him. He made his decision! It's up to others to deal with it. He's the boss after all!

                    That he might communicate better or be honest even where that might mean admitting failure? Alien concepts.

                    It doesn't look like McDaniels is going to have a long career in Denver though, just like Wade Phillips who could NEVER accept blame for ANYTHING and famously said "Pat Bowlen understands" why things were all screwed up and the team had 2 consecutive losing seasons.

                    Wade refused to accept any blame. Pat Fired him.

                    Right now, Bowlen is angry and blaming Cutler. He's backing his brand-new coach, because to admit McDaniels screwed up would be to admit that HE, Pat Bowlen, screwed up by hiring someone so inexperienced and arrogant. Someone who can sit down with Cutler and lecture him for 20 minutes about how he was right, and never do what Jay was looking for -- simply say "I want you to be my starting QB for as long as possible."


                    Would that really have been that hard? Like iJerry says, it's always subject to later revision -- like Mike Shanahan's "lifetime contract" that actually was for 4 years.

                    But, don't expect Bowlen's siding with his rookie head coach NOW to save McDaniels' butt after two losing seasons. At that point McDaniels will be expendable. And Pat can just fire him and say "he didn't win. Bottom line, this business is about winning."

                    So, no matter how arrogant McDaniels may be, he has to realize that getting rid of Jay is not a really great career move.

                    Because the chances of finding anybody as good as Jay in the next few years aren't all that red-hot, and NOBODY in the NFL cares about "explanations" and "whose fault it is." If you don't win because you traded your franchise QB and couldn't find another one right away because that's almost impossible, well that's life. Don't come crying to us. This is a business.


                    As a person, I can understand. As a fan though, I don't care. I just want the team to win and that means having Cutler as the starting QB. Period. Because history proves they are almost certainly NOT going to find anybody as good.

                    And history shows that coaches are expendable. Elite QBs with the talent to win SBs are not. And without that talent, promising coaches fail (just ask Eric Mangini or Romeo Crennel, the last two Belichek disciples to fail as head-coaches and be fired.
                    Last edited by Cugel; 03-20-2009, 08:15 AM.
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                    • Originally posted by jhns View Post
                      You just used the business line again. Well, Cutler is treating it as a business right now. He is doing what is best for him. If you all want to keep using this business line, realize that Culters best business move is to go to another team. That other team will give him his guarantees AND pay him a lot more money. Sounds like a smart business decision to me.

                      This is how I think Cutler feels right now. Show some loyalty, he will give you all kinds of loyalty in return. Make it a business, he is treating it like one.
                      rAmen! I think your last line nailed it on the head.
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                      • Originally posted by japfaff View Post
                        I gotta agree with this. Jay is just angry. It would all just blow over if the entire football world wasnt revolving around this insident. But Jay got his feathers ruffled, and he cant just get away from it unless he moves to the moon. Eventually it will die down, he can slip into Dove Valley. Then they hash out thier differences. Because Josh needs Jay to get this thing off on the right foot, and with the QB friendly offense, Jay's career will explode
                        That is what makes this whole thing so frustrating! This team could be unstoppable with Cutler/McD. Pride and ego just need to take a backseat to winning!
                        http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...uff/hillis.gif

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                        • Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                          Pat Bowlen is obviously perfectly willing to back his coach and trade Cutler. McDaniels is getting ready to "move on and get ready for the season." Jay's agent wants more money from another team. Jay expected McDaniels to acknowledge that he did in fact want Matt Cassel instead of him and tell Jay that he's sorry about how he handled things and now they have to move on. Obviously, that is beyond McDaniels' character. He can't admit he's wrong. Ever. And, Jay is obviously not just going to "get over it."

                          So, blame who you will, this isn't going to have a happy ending for Bronco fans.

                          The question is. What are the Broncos real chances of replacing Jay Cutler with anybody as good and what chance do they ultimately have of winning a SB without him?

                          Want to know what Cutler's real value is?


                          Now, do you think the OTHER 21 teams in the league who DON'T have franchise QBs are all run by idiots?

                          Were SB winning coaches - Jon Gruden and Brian Billick morons? They got fired because they couldn't find or create a reliable franchise QB. It's just incredibly difficult to find one.

                          They tried. Billick tied his hopes to Kyle Boller who was a first round draft pick. Gruden tried every FA QB on the market. None of them worked. Boller tanked. They were both fired.

                          There are LOTs of "also-rans" in the NFL. Guys like Kerry Collins or Brian Griese. They might have a good season or two and help your team but you can't just plug them into the lineup for the next ten seasons and forget about the QB position. It's always a question of WHEN they are going to screw up and ruin your playoff chances NOT IF -- and then there are just the guys like Kyle Boller or Rex Grossman whose "potential" never pans out.

                          Fans in Denver better get used to HOPING for Jake Plummer level talent -- a guy nearing the end of his career, who has failed in some other city and then hope that in the right scheme the team can get by. Maybe for a couple of years.

                          Mike Shanahan realized the limitations of that: "I just felt we were about as good as we were going to get offensively" he said after the 2005 season. And it just hadn't been good enough with Jake, so he went out and brilliantly drafted for Jay. And he got incredibly lucky.

                          That year there were THREE potential franchise QBs available in Vince Young, Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler. The Titans screwed up and took Young #1. The Raiders at #7 passed on Cutler and took and took S Michael Huff. In 2007, Davis decided to draft his QB #1 overall in JaMarcus Russell.

                          Then Arizona took Leinart, who is relegated to the bench after floundering so far in AZ. Vince Young also lost his job to ever-wandering journeyman Kerry Collins.

                          If Denver gets lucky: get used to waiting another 3 or 4 years until some rookie QB Denver drafts in 2009 is ready to lead the team to a SB -- sometime in 2012 or 2013 perhaps.

                          Until then it's FA.

                          Know how often a team has been able to "get by" with a QB and win the SB in the last 17 years? TWICE!

                          TWO TIMES the SB Champion had QBs named Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. The rest of the time?


                          1993 - Troy Aikman
                          1994 - Troy Aikman
                          1995 - Steve Young
                          1996 - Troy Aikman
                          1997 - Brett Farve
                          1998 - John Elway
                          1999 - John Elway
                          2000 - Kurt Warner
                          2001 - Trent Dilfer
                          2002 - Tom Brady
                          2003 - Brad Johnson
                          2004 - Tom Brady
                          2005 - Tom Brady
                          2006 - Ben Roethlisberger
                          2007 - Peyton Manning
                          2008 - Eli Manning
                          2009 - Ben Roethlisberger


                          Out of that list, how many QBs would NOT be classified as career franchise QBs with multiple playoff appearances? Just Dilfer and Johnson.

                          And those teams won by having the best two defensive teams of the last decade, the Ravens by having probably the best overall defense in NFL history (they certainly set all the records that year).

                          So, realistically, unless Denver somehow finds ANOTHER franchise QB with equal skill to Cutler they are simply screwed -- unless somehow Nolan and Brian Xanders and McDaniels get the 2000 Ravens' defense. Me either.

                          Pat Bowlen will just sit back and do what 21 owners around the league with NO franchise QB do.

                          They take the fans' money knowing that the team realistically has NO chance of winning the SB in the near future. And then they go on that long lonely search for a guy who can fill those shoes. Sometimes you get lucky, and sometimes not.

                          So, if you want to believe that lightning will strike twice in the same place or kid yourself that Cutler really isn't all that great, go ahead.

                          TWENTY ONE NFL GMs disagree with you! They all want Cutler for their team, because they realize how difficult it is to find anyone that talented.


                          But, what the hell would Elway know? Top 5 QB? Hell no! Jay's just a "whiner!" Get rid of him! "He hasn't won a single playoff game!" Etc.

                          But, get used to a LONG time in the wilderness without him. As for me, if this team falls apart after they trade Jay, I'm just not going to buy any Broncos tickets for a few years.

                          Do what you want. I refuse to reward management failure with my hard earned money. That doesn't mean I'm not a Broncos fan. I've been a fan of this team since 1977. But, they broke it. And now it's up to them to fix it.
                          qft definatly qft

                          Im seconding this
                          think its sad we could start 6 - 0 then end 2-8 in our last 10.
                          Fire McDaniels



                          Bronco Fan Since '82

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                          • man, woody has been hitting them out of the park lately! Another great column.
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                            • The bigger question, is why is an apology even necessary?
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                              • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                                John Elway finally has something to say.

                                http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/?p=130
                                Elway and I see alike here. I see jay ending up here for 2009.

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