Orton / Cutler trade

[BarkdogRX7]

What I dont get is Chad Ocho Cinco has asked for a trade the last 2-3 seasons or so, doesn't make it a secret he wants to go play for a better team, and yet the Bengals keep him every year, listen to rumors and then ultimately week 1 he is out wearing his orange & black and playing. Why did we just not do that?

I guess Cutler took it too far by playing the silent card and putting his house up for sale, but I think everything would have been better had we kept him and just waited til week 1 to play football

[BroncoKazuki]

i read about a paragraph, it honestly looks like the worst post to come on this message board in awhile.

What are you the grammar police? Seriously say something to rebuttal my argument or say nothing at all. Since you cannot come up with anything or lack the ability to think for yourself all you do is stoop to attacking my post. Seriously everything has to be what college level writing to be read by your eyes that's BS. What would it 'please' you for me to put my stuff on word so it could ease your little tiny mind.

Is this for your 8th grade English class? If so, it needs some work.

As said to tsiguy, whats with the attacks? If you got something to say, say it but since you don't have anything to say. You result to attacking me. Sorry but I'm not writing a dissertation on the Bronco's Franchise nor this trade in particular. Hopefully my big words don't blow your brain cells.

ha ha ha, my thoughts exactly

Oh witty comeback from someone who has nothing to say at all.

yeah Id rather read the korean guy who writes about the great soldier orton is as if tko the enemy, smite all with his missiles. that's infinitely more entertaining.

Wow Sequence, so you have nothing to say I guess... what can I say that wont get me flagged then again I don't care. Add to the thread or don't say anything...

I nominate this for the best reply.

I nominate your reply for being nothing then clutter in my thread. Please add to the topic or say nothing at all.

Maybe that's why he is on my ignore list.

Wow I wonder why maybe because your too much of a 'coaching first' 'team second' and 'player third' person.

You know what management is not always correct, and for someone to be an advocate of free speech you seem to censor mine because you don't like what I say. Please don't reply in a thread where you have nothing to say. Like that old addage, "If you don''t like whats being told on the radio turn it off."

There you go grammar teachers, I'm sure your grammar is top notch. Remember what goes around comes around

[JakeNbake]

This isn't a smack thread, if you don't like the post just leave, no need to insult the guy.

[BroncoKazuki]

Sorry BroncoKazuki... that argument has a lot of holes in it. I think that if there were feelings that Cutler can produce at a high level, then Bowlen would have no problem paying him what he's worth.

But that's the problem right there. Cutler has physical talents but there were clearly some doubts about his ability to translate talent into wins. Otherwise McDaniels would not even entertain the thought of getting rid of Cutler.

What I think happened is this. McDaniels was hired because Bowlen thinks he's a smart coach, even if he has no head coaching experience. And even if he appears to be more offensive minded. What it boils down to was that McDaniels told Bowlen what he wanted to hear, which was to evaluate the entire team, not just the defense like a bunch of whiners that have been rehashing that here.

McDaniels did what he promised and came away with a lot of doubt. We know he looked at everything just like him looking at all the tape of Orton before deciding Chicago was the trading partner (per Peter King's article). The doubt was brought to Bowlen's attention.

I strongly believe that McDaniels and Bowlen then had a big discussion about McDaniels' doubts, because who would want to have a head coach not trusting your starting QB to get the job done? McDaniels made his case to Bowlen and essentially sold him on the arguments. It was convincing enough for Bowlen to take McDaniels' side. Bowlen gave him permission to look at all the options, including getting rid of Cutler at the most value for the Broncos. I personally don't think McDaniels would have the guts to even talk about trading Cutler without the support of Bowlen.

So let's see what McDaniels could have possibly seen to make him nervous about Cutler. Everyone has been making a big fuss about the Broncos being the #2 offense last year (in yards) but forgot that they stunk in scoring. That's a HUGE problem. #2 in yards is nothing if you're middle of the pack in scoring (or as some Cutler defenders have pointed out, #11 in offensive scoring). Still, when you have such a big discrepancy between yards and points, you have a problem, whether you ranked scoring #16 (overall) or #11 (offensive only).

Cutler defenders have pointed out that it was because Denver lacked a running game (I mean, 7 RB's in IR!) and the defense was bad so Cutler often had to play catch up and was forced to pass more and take more chances. We'll see shortly that this wasn't entirely the whole story.

First, even with all of the RB's on IR, Denver still ranked #12 in rushing as a team with 1,862 yards. Some may say some of those yards are Cutler scrambling. True, but those only account for 200 yards. Even if you take out scrambling yards by the QB, Denver would still ranked in the top third in terms of team rushing.

Second, the offense and by extension Cutler, got worse the latter part of the season while attempting less passes per game. So much for the theory that Cutler was forced to pass more and take more riskier chances down the stretch to play catch up due to a bad defense. Yes, the defense was horrid but the offense had major issues of its own. When you consider that Scheffler, Royal, and Marshall are excellent receivers and tight end, it baffles the mind even more why the scoring is so low. Here's the breakdown in stats if you'd like to see it for the first 1/4 of the season and last 3/4 of the season:

First 1/4: Win/Loss percentage of 75%, 33.25 points per game, 39.25 pass attempts per game, 65% completion, 8.12 yards average per pass and QB rating of 88.6.

Last 3/4: Win/Loss percentage of 42%, 19.75 points per game, 38.25 pass attempts per game, 61.4% completion, 7.08 yards average per pass and QB rating of 80.9.

Everything went down significantly down the stretch, especially scoring which just killed things. Whatever it was that caused this problem, who knows but it had to worry the heck out of McDaniels.

Bottom line is that I don't think it was all about the money. (Unless you're saying that Jay thinks he's worth $100 million but McDaniels only thinks he's worth $50 million based what he saw... but I didn't see that in your analysis)

Well good post and your right take in the whole and you get a different perspective. The thing is McDaniels was hired for the soul purpose of fixing the Defense, Fixing the anemic run game and Special Teams. He was also in charge of elevating Jay Cutler's game.

Someone has Orton's stats in their sig. even though the Bears average 21.6ppg they also had a good Defense (16th in the nfl) and a potent special teams and a up start run game in Forte. Orton did not have to go it alone with the Bears he had a whole team to back him up... The results 9-7 but how many games did Orton actually win the game for them? 2...3 ... 5? I mean its literally the same Bears team that took Int Prone Rex to the Super Bowl a few years back. So to say that Orton is better then Jay is stupid.


Jay did give some games away, but the argument that was lost during the debacle is, this trade should have not happen. We brought in Josh in hopes that he would fix the D by addressing the coaching position. We hired Nolan then he went about and took a sledge hammer to the Offense. To any reasonable man that's pretty stupid. Is it worth alienating your QB the same QB that you need to survive in Denver for 2 years in order for what? To get a QB who you barely missed out on?

That says right there that, McD is bad at handling personnel and egos. He has to be the top dog on everything. To a point that's good but like any franchise that is under harsh conditions it leads to stagnation of the team because said Coach cannot grow. Something that Mangini, Cornell and Charlie have not learned. Look what happen to their coaching careers. Mangini is on his final run, if he fails in Cle. He's gone, the ND fans want Charlie out of the program because he literally killed that team, and Cornell he's now a desk jockey.

That's what makes this trade a head turning event for the analysis. How does one go from being excited to trading away your QB. How does one go from wanting to work with a new coach to seclusion. Now more is being leaked about Jay not wanting to be here after Bates was fired, that was denied earlier way before this happen. Its being hashed back because it points the finger back at Jay.

If you had your boss that hired you and your manager canned within a span of 2 weeks you are going to say things. To the new incoming management your granted to vent a little about it then go back to work. That's what happen Jay vented and went back to work looking past the firings. The 'I want a trade because you let Bates go' is kinda stupid... its something that most normal people would say when a friend gets fired. Shouldn't be taken at value. To be using it this late after everything is done is stupid. Why not come out before the trade at least get public opinion on your side. Something the FO didn't want as it would just be easier to sling mud when the former QB leaves. As the former QB just wants to move on, makes more sense if I was a PR person to get opinion back to my boss's side.

Look in the end the more you take ego out, the more its the money. In this economy maybe having a super star QB was not worth it to Bowlen. He bought the Patriots system and the Patriots way. Probably because it got them 3 rings. To that point if McDaniels sold Bowlen that any ordinary QB could run his system whats the point of keeping Cutler when he will eventually command top dollar? There's none so the best value would be to trade him in 2 years to get compensation value in draft pics. All the while Josh would be cozy in his new contract because he rode Cutlers arm to 2 good seasons which allowed him to stay the Broncos HC longer. Now that's all gone and he has to hope beyond everything that his master plan comes into play faster then he predicted.

Do I expect the Broncos to do well? Yes they are my team. At the same point I do not put any stock in the FO and I do hope that McDaniels gets exposed as a con artist in this season or next. He sold himself to have the magical cure and in the end if the Broncos do not fare well with the picks all we bought was a expensive bottle of water.

[LarryDean]

This isn't a smack thread, if you don't like the post just leave, no need to insult the guy.

thank you JBNC ..... I was thinking the same thing ....Kazuki put a good deal of effort into this thread and if others would do the same the boards would be better off ten fold .....I wonder why people come here if this is the best they have to offer .....They would rather act like dingleberries.... Instead of having a discussion on the written topic..

Oh my ****ing god.

i read about a paragraph, it honestly looks like the worst post to come on this message board in awhile.

Kazuki.....

I thought from day 1.....This was all to do about money from both sides..at first from the FO and then by Cutler's agent..Cutler's role was more of being betrayed and the steps that follow..I dont believe not once was Jay off the trding block..I think McD and Xander being new to the other side of the game got caught up in it and did a poor job back peddeling there after ...I think they made more to do with the cant contact Jay part of it ..I think they was going to trd him Jay knew it and did not want to talk them.....

I have been really happy so far with all the offseason moves during Free Agency outside of losing Cutler but thats behind me now and look forward to the draft as a key part of the opinion....

I will give McD some more time before I compare his roster moves to the ones made under Shanahan at the tail end of his career here in Denver....I didnt like the amount of players the Broncos was having to bring in during coarse of the season "on the fly" the last two years.....I also think on "paper" the roster is shaping up pretty good thus far and it gives me hope of a better team ....

[BroncoKazuki]

I thought from day 1.....This was all to do about money from both sides..at first from the FO and then by Cutler's agent..Cutler's role was more of being betrayed and the steps that follow..I dont believe not once was Jay off the trding block..I think McD and Xander being new to the other side of the game got caught up in it and did a poor job back peddeling there after ...I think they made more to do with the cant contact Jay part of it ..I think they was going to trd him Jay knew it and did not want to talk them.....

I have been really happy so far with all the offseason moves during Free Agency outside of losing Cutler but thats behind me now and look forward to the draft as a key part of the opinion....

I will give McD some more time before I compare his roster moves to the ones made under Shanahan at the tail end of his career here in Denver....I didnt like the amount of players the Broncos was having to bring in during coarse of the season "on the fly" the last two years.....I also think on "paper" the roster is shaping up pretty good thus far and it gives me hope of a better team ....

There is always two sides, one side is Buss thinking of "what can I get for Jay and mainly my 10% cut." I mean he did make a nice pretty penny from the biggest QB contracts of all time, the Brett Farve Contract. If Brett commanded that money at his age. Imagine what Cutler would fetch? I'm talking MLB type of Money. With the upgrades on Defense, Run and special teams improve the team? Yes that is the main reason why we hired Josh. The thing that tipped me off and made me go "uh oh" was when we fired the Goldmans and hired a salary cap guy in Xanders.

The first thing that popped in my head was "were either gonna lose Champ, DJ, Cutler or Marshall." Those four, two of them still in their rookie contracts would eat up the bulk of the Cap for this team. Since McDaniels is more of a system guy, having a system QB is the right move. Jay could never been that system QB, he's an improviser. That's telling MacGyver not to build a pic lock out of a pin and a straw. That right there to take a play when it breaks down and make something out of it, that''s un-coach-able you either have it or not.

To McDaniels to see Jay improvise would make him go gray early. Its color within the lines or don't color at all. That's one of the reasons I don't get why many people on these boards call him an Offensive Genius when he forces his QB to draw within the lines instead of "if the play breaks down and you can do something, make sure it pays off." All of Last year was just that, there was no run game, the Defense could barely hold a team to 10 points a quarter and all the pressure was on the passing game to go out and score points as fast as you can. In football you just cant do that, football is about field position and controlling the clock. We couldn't control the clock because we had no run game, with that we had to score and the Defense could barely be counted as a Defense.

To me if the Trade talks didn't come now, they would have surfaced in 2010 despite Jay doing well. All the poor leadership and bad press that has been surfacing as examples why McD did what he did is nothing more then people trying to justify a bad trade. If you say it long enough and frequently the real truth gets drowned out.

The team always looks good on paper thus I coin the Defense as a paper tiger. My fear is neither Xanders or McD have drafted at all in their careers being in the hot seat. They watched others do it, so their ability to draft should be questioned. There's more of a gamble now then there was 3 months ago.

McDaniels needs this trade to pay off, and for Cutler to fail to make himself look good. Cutler does well and he fails, he makes the Broncos the new Lions and Raiders and we become the most pitied team at the end of the 2009 season.

[broncobuss]

"the coach" is not smart enough to come up with that sceme of getting rid of cutler over money. I think it had to do with something else you said about him being afraid of adjusting his offense to fit cutler. This only proves that the coach doesnt know what he is doing. You look at any successful coach in the league and they adjust there coaching to best use the talent on hand not the other way around. Examples, Tomlin, when he got to pittsburg he was a tampa 2 defensive coach, read and react. He seen that the defense they already had was very successful and changed his thinking to a 3-4 to fit the strengh of the team. Dungy when he went to the colts, didnt mess with an offense that was already successful and went straight to work on the defense to fix that. Shanny changed his offense many times to fit the talent he had. He never looked at a guy and said wow that guy has a tone of talent but doesnt fit my system, so i wont go get him, no he took the talent and changed his offense a little to fit what talent he had. Mcdaniels has no buisness being a coach in this league, it was a mistake of a hire by bowlen and the goodmans, who now that I look back on it probably got fired because when "the coach" came in with the idea of getting cassell was probaly laughed at by the goodmans. so he got rid of them, the only guys in the building that did know about talent.. sorry for the long post

[LarryDean]

Good stuff .... :go:

There is always two sides, one side is Buss thinking of "what can I get for Jay and mainly my 10% cut." I mean he did make a nice pretty penny from the biggest QB contracts of all time, the Brett Farve Contract. If Brett commanded that money at his age. Imagine what Cutler would fetch? I'm talking MLB type of Money. With the upgrades on Defense, Run and special teams improve the team? Yes that is the main reason why we hired Josh. The thing that tipped me off and made me go "uh oh" was when we fired the Goldmans and hired a salary cap guy in Xanders.

"if" the Broncos would have not done well this season .... I agree in 2010 Jay would have been trded but many more fans would have made him a scapegoat then wht we alrdy seen and it would have gotten even uglier for him....But i agree with you and think you bring light to the subject...

devils advo on the salary cap it has been so long since the Broncos have had any real team building room under the cap...In comes a person believe to be able to keep it that way and still produce a winning product .... this remains to be seen though....I would like to have my 20/20 here and would love to see how the Broncos would look right now with Shanahan...It will be hard to break away from that being his will be for a long time and maybe till death my favorite head coach ....Either way I dont think anyone would say the Broncos would be in worse shape with him and at best its now just an opinion....

The team always looks good on paper thus I coin the Defense as a paper tiger. My fear is neither Xanders or McD have drafted at all in their careers being in the hot seat. They watched others do it, so their ability to draft should be questioned. There's more of a gamble now then there was 3 months ago.

The mental state of the LR and the unseen things that can happen in a football season can wreck even the best teams on paper....At my own fault I use this a little much on here ... But the roster was chalk full of players that even though they was Broncos I hated them.....Not to name any names but the replacements have surely have got to be much better .....

I mean we had players on the team that I think would get owned on Pros Vs Joes...It was so bad ....

I think we all can agree ....One thing that has killed the Broncos the last few years has been chemistry and how this team buckles down is the key to the season imo it wont take much from them to collapse.....

I have faith the draft will be money but I also see it as a major test ....It will be really hard at this point for McD and Xander's not to get bashed here regardless..... unless they hit wht appears to be a grandslam....

McDaniels needs this trade to pay off, and for Cutler to fail to make himself look good. Cutler does well and he fails, he makes the Broncos the new Lions and Raiders and we become the most pitied team at the end of the 2009 season

The pressure is own now for both and no thanks to McD I'm not worried at all about the pressure Jay is under.....

The media market is so much different in Denver and appears more forgiven but after all this I dont think Bowlen will stand for anything less then a outstanding product and think the leash is tighter then what it appears and I dont think for a second Bowlen will stay Tammy Wynette with McD....

[karnage]

so Bowlen called jay to tell him he's possibly not worth the money in 2 years?.....and just b/c a contract is 100+(million) does not mean it is going to hit the cap hard every year......it would have some guaranteed and would either be reworked in a few seasons or cut/trade......the NFL is a business...winning makes the most money.....so if u think u can win more....and thus get more home playoff games etc....u do what it takes to make the team better......if it's all about the money why saddle ur team with 4 1st round picks over 2 years....that cost $$$ for players that haven't seen an NFL playing field......i've never heard of a team giving away two firsts to drop further back in the draft.....if Denver does something to move up....then they still would be paying JC $$ to a rookie......regardless....it doest matter if they traded Cutler....cuz they h8 his haircut.....Jay is bye-bye......I couldn't care less who plays for Denver.....just put a winning team on0the damn field

[DrunkPanda]

haha. looks like jack elway has quit football. so much for him being our next great quarterback just because his last name is elway... maybe we should draft janet, her last name is elway too

[CMack]

Check this out

Thats okay i could not see an Elway in anything but #7

[griffinmyers]

I was in Jack's high school graduating class. He was our quarterback and can I tell you he was horrible? The only reason he started was because Papa payed for a new track and turf in our stadium and became a coach. We had another guy who was much better than Jack who should have been playing QB. Honest to god he has no talent.... It's really funny to read these kind of threads.