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  • #46
    Originally posted by bert428 View Post
    Very nice post sir. While fans of the same team should stick together through adversity, sticking together with a complete change in principles is a different story. I'll give you an analogy. If I were a German pre-wwII, I would love my country. But given the complete regime change to Hitler, could I support Hitler. NO !! Doesn't make me love my country any less, NO!! Now the Bronocos. Fan for over 25 years and I love the Broncos (even though many now tell me to leave because of my opinions). The complete managerial team in place now though, I have zero support for (same amount I support the Patriots). Could Josh have changed my mind? Yes. He could have showed up, said I don't like Jay for this system and I want somebody else. That I could respect. But to do it Billichek style, from I never tried to trade him, to I only listened, to we told Jay about it? He's just plain sneaky, dishonest and deceptive, just like his Mentor. I do not support this kind of system or his (Josh's) kind of ethics. As far as Bowlen is concerned, I have always considered him to be one of the best owners in professional sports. I still do. I honestly believe he never saw all of this coming and just had to make a choice and go left or right. I believe if he knew all this was coming, he would have never hired Josh. I also believe that after all the aggravation this situation has caused, Josh's allowed time for success (from Bowlen) has been greatly shortened. But regardless of whether he wins or loses (Josh), I will not endorse or support him on priniciple (and I believe this to be the opinion of many older fans like myself from what I have read in the last few months).

    Best Regards,

    Bert428
    I am more in tune with this post than the op. I don't think the Nazi comparison was necessary, but I got it as Germany was behind Hitler at first. And while I agree that Bowlen 'was' (my change of tense) one of the best owners in the NFL and still wants to win, I don't think his handling of the situation was very good either. He went from taking back control of the team to staying away in the beginning weeks of the controversy to getting 'involved' again by firing Cutler (who was on his way here). He should have stepped in right at the beginning when it was obvious that his new HC needed some help in the PR department.
    But I wont go as far as saying neither McDaniels nor Bowlen couldn't win me back-I'm just more in a wait and see mode.So, I am not too wild about what is going on, but as a long time season ticket holder (the Phipps were the owners when I got my tickets), I hope for the best and know in my heart that I will be completely happy if the situation works out-I just think it started very wrong, and I have never liked Bellichek's style, so I worry about a new HC with all the secretive and unpersonal approaches to players/team and zero HC experience. They will have to make me believe by winning-which we know, can do wonders for attitude.
    SmilingJack

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm angry, but not at my team.

      This new guy came in here with the idea of making the team fit his scheme, rather than the other way around.

      That can work. Coaches like Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry did exactly that and the results are legend.

      Bill Belichick did that with his first head coaching stint in Cleveland and he was a complete failure. He was headed that same direction in New England before he fluked into Tom Brady. Now he's a genius and we have built an alter to one of his disciples.

      Is Denver the next Cleveland under Bill Belichick or the next Dallas under Tom Landry?

      I won't judge his coaching skills at this point because the man hasn't made a single draft choice or coached a single game, but I'm still angry.

      I'm angry that Josh McDaniels labeling Cutler as unresponsive because he didn't return a freaking text message, or didn't answer a phone call from the owner.

      It's simple really; when you want, or as in this case, must speak with someone, that 'someone' isn't responding, and you have the resources to make that happen, you get on your luxury jet, you fly to that location, you knock on the damned door and you talk, face-to-face.

      Good grief! When did this become the next episode of Dr. Phil?

      McDaniels didn't want Cutler here, he didn't really care if that upset the fan base and he wasn't all that concerned about the truth of the matter surrounding the circumstances.

      Pat Bowlen was insulted his one-every-ten-years franchise QB didn't return a phone call, so naturally, we have to trade him post haste.

      Yeah, I'm angry. I now have two home jerseys that I payed upwards of $60 each for in December with player names that are now somewhere else.

      I won't be buying another in the near future.

      I'm angry the fan voice apparently has absolutely no sway with our front office or Pat Bowlen.

      And I'm angry the man now coaching my life-long favorite sports team is a weasel.

      But, no, I'm not angry at the team. Only this weird, unfamiliar face that's been painted over the one I've always known.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Runner View Post
        I'm angry, but not at my team.

        This new guy came in here with the idea of making the team fit his scheme, rather than the other way around.

        That can work. Coaches like Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry did exactly that and the results are legend.

        Bill Belichick did that with his first head coaching stint in Cleveland and he was a complete failure. He was headed that same direction in New England before he fluked into Tom Brady. Now he's a genius and we have built an alter to one of his disciples.

        Is Denver the next Cleveland under Bill Belichick or the next Dallas under Tom Landry?

        I won't judge his coaching skills at this point because the man hasn't made a single draft choice or coached a single game, but I'm still angry.

        I'm angry that Josh McDaniels labeling Cutler as unresponsive because he didn't return a freaking text message, or didn't answer a phone call from the owner.

        It's simple really; when you want, or as in this case, must speak with someone, that 'someone' isn't responding, and you have the resources to make that happen, you get on your luxury jet, you fly to that location, you knock on the damned door and you talk, face-to-face.

        Good grief! When did this become the next episode of Dr. Phil?

        McDaniels didn't want Cutler here, he didn't really care if that upset the fan base and he wasn't all that concerned about the truth of the matter surrounding the circumstances.

        Pat Bowlen was insulted his one-every-ten-years franchise QB didn't return a phone call, so naturally, we have to trade him post haste.

        Yeah, I'm angry. I now have two home jerseys that I payed upwards of $60 each for in December with player names that are now somewhere else.

        I won't be buying another in the near future.

        I'm angry the fan voice apparently has absolutely no sway with our front office or Pat Bowlen.

        And I'm angry the man now coaching my life-long favorite sports team is a weasel.

        But, no, I'm not angry at the team. Only this weird, unfamiliar face that's been painted over the one I've always known.
        Wow, simply wow.......

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Runner View Post
          It's simple really; when you want, or as in this case, must speak with someone, that 'someone' isn't responding, and you have the resources to make that happen, you get on your luxury jet, you fly to that location, you knock on the damned door and you talk, face-to-face.
          Really? So every boss who can't get ahold of an employee has an obligation to drive around looking for said employee? I think not. Like or not (and contrary to what he himself obviously believed), Jay Cutler was not the Denver Broncos franchise. He was a paid employee, and the obligation to attend and be reachable is absolutely his.

          Good grief! When did this become the next episode of Dr. Phil?
          Pretty much when Jay decided that his feelings being hurt was more than he could handle and demanded a trade.

          Pat Bowlen was insulted his one-every-ten-years franchise QB didn't return a phone call, so naturally, we have to trade him post haste.
          Yep, because as I said in my earlier post, anyone who isn't onboard needs to be gone. You can't win with dissenters in the ranks.

          I won't be buying another in the near future.
          I'm sure Pat Bowlen's bank account heard that and is upset.

          I'm angry the fan voice apparently has absolutely no sway with our front office or Pat Bowlen.
          Wrong. If the fan voice wasn't important to Pat Bowlen, he wouldn't have made any changes. He would have let his fans wallow in mediocrity because it was what was comfortable instead of trying to make changes to win.

          Comment


          • #50
            Great Post. Living in New Jersey there are a few Bronco fans but I have recently seen them turn their backs on us. Every team goes through a down period, we will be back up in no time.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by biggzesmallz13 View Post
              Great Post. Living in New Jersey there are a few Bronco fans but I have recently seen them turn their backs on us. Every team goes through a down period, we will be back up in no time.
              south jersey here. the last couple of months was the most i had heard of the broncos in the national media since the super bowl years. Would like to prove all the may sayers wrong but after the sked we got it might not be too easy but i'll wait till the draft to make any early predictions.
              Bronco fan 33 years and counting, GO BRONCOS!

              Comment


              • #52
                I think we should start the Broncos Amnesia Campaign which is dedicated to this stupidity I wrote this last year but this seems to be more of a demand now. We had 2 Qb's who led us to the super bowl in a row (if we dont count deberg) and now we expect them all to do it. That pressure makes it hard to play in Denver which is why we need to forget the past players and look toward the future.

                Lightning only strikes once

                I was watching the Express and at the end of the film the legendary coach says something that hits home and not just because he was talking about Floyd Little. He wont tell Little he could be the next Ernie Davis because there will never be another Ernie Davis. There will never be another John Elway nor Terrell Davis nor Craig Morton so lets stop trying to find them and look for the here and now.
                Last edited by Joshecalpoly; 04-16-2009, 03:09 AM.
                2016 Draft: http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...aft-Watch-list

                Comment


                • #53
                  An Excuse to Fail for A Time

                  Originally posted by Runner View Post
                  I'm angry, but not at my team.

                  This new guy came in here with the idea of making the team fit his scheme, rather than the other way around.

                  That can work. Coaches like Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry did exactly that and the results are legend.

                  Bill Belichick did that with his first head coaching stint in Cleveland and he was a complete failure. He was headed that same direction in New England before he fluked into Tom Brady. Now he's a genius and we have built an alter to one of his disciples.

                  Is Denver the next Cleveland under Bill Belichick or the next Dallas under Tom Landry?

                  I won't judge his coaching skills at this point because the man hasn't made a single draft choice or coached a single game, but I'm still angry.

                  I'm angry that Josh McDaniels labeling Cutler as unresponsive because he didn't return a freaking text message, or didn't answer a phone call from the owner.

                  It's simple really; when you want, or as in this case, must speak with someone, that 'someone' isn't responding, and you have the resources to make that happen, you get on your luxury jet, you fly to that location, you knock on the damned door and you talk, face-to-face.

                  Good grief! When did this become the next episode of Dr. Phil?

                  McDaniels didn't want Cutler here, he didn't really care if that upset the fan base and he wasn't all that concerned about the truth of the matter surrounding the circumstances.

                  Pat Bowlen was insulted his one-every-ten-years franchise QB didn't return a phone call, so naturally, we have to trade him post haste.

                  Yeah, I'm angry. I now have two home jerseys that I payed upwards of $60 each for in December with player names that are now somewhere else.

                  I won't be buying another in the near future.

                  I'm angry the fan voice apparently has absolutely no sway with our front office or Pat Bowlen.

                  And I'm angry the man now coaching my life-long favorite sports team is a weasel.

                  But, no, I'm not angry at the team. Only this weird, unfamiliar face that's been painted over the one I've always known.
                  Your post summed up my feelings pretty well. I am more of a procrastinator than you, so I didn't have a Cutler jersey, and was probably going to buy a throwback one this year in the 50th Anniversary of the team. For this year, I will stick with my current wardrobe of aging Bronco clothing.

                  My current view on the change is that putting in a new guy gives the ownership an excuse and time to go through a rebuilding year. Mike Shanahan always has to retool without failing, and that is why he had such a tough time getting back talent from the draft, because of his draft location.

                  Face it, the new trophy coach will probably get a two year honeymoon from Bowlen. He will have a mediocre team this year and will pray that the Chicago Bears do so as well. That gives him lots of leverage in the 2010 draft. With lots of high draft choices in both years, and the vaunted new NE system in the West, the team is counting on 2011 to be a breakthrough year as players reach their prime under new management.

                  Mike Shanahan really never had the luxury of a rebuilding era. Denver fans expect a winner, with Elway and after him. Look at your hockey team and how you have not tolerated less than the Stanley Cup.

                  It will be an interesting year in 2009. I am not as pessimistic as some, but also not as optimistic as others. Call this year getting to know the blended family. Should be interesting to see if the retained assistants are with the team in 2010.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post
                    Your post summed up my feelings pretty well. I am more of a procrastinator than you, so I didn't have a Cutler jersey, and was probably going to buy a throwback one this year in the 50th Anniversary of the team. For this year, I will stick with my current wardrobe of aging Bronco clothing.

                    My current view on the change is that putting in a new guy gives the ownership an excuse and time to go through a rebuilding year. Mike Shanahan always has to retool without failing, and that is why he had such a tough time getting back talent from the draft, because of his draft location.

                    Face it, the new trophy coach will probably get a two year honeymoon from Bowlen. He will have a mediocre team this year and will pray that the Chicago Bears do so as well. That gives him lots of leverage in the 2010 draft. With lots of high draft choices in both years, and the vaunted new NE system in the West, the team is counting on 2011 to be a breakthrough year as players reach their prime under new management.

                    Mike Shanahan really never had the luxury of a rebuilding era. Denver fans expect a winner, with Elway and after him. Look at your hockey team and how you have not tolerated less than the Stanley Cup.

                    It will be an interesting year in 2009. I am not as pessimistic as some, but also not as optimistic as others. Call this year getting to know the blended family. Should be interesting to see if the retained assistants are with the team in 2010.
                    wow I almost forgot this was are 50th year well we are starting it off with all eyes on us that is good I guess. This will most likely be a rebuilding year, but it could be a rare suprise comeback year. I am hoping for the later on the anniversary year.
                    2016 Draft: http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...aft-Watch-list

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by bert428 View Post
                      Very nice post sir. While fans of the same team should stick together through adversity, sticking together with a complete change in principles is a different story. I'll give you an analogy. If I were a German pre-wwII, I would love my country. But given the complete regime change to Hitler, could I support Hitler. NO !! Doesn't make me love my country any less, NO!!
                      Excuse me, but that's a really bad comparison. It's easy to say TODAY that you would have not followed Hitler if you lived in Germany before 1933. I mean, that situation was quite complicated and people had many different reasons to follow him... conservatives wishing to restore a huge german Reich, militarists that couldn't accept the loss in WW1, monarchists who yelled for a 'strong leadership', people from the working class that were unemployed and extremely poor and put all hopes in him. You need to look at the political chaos in the Republic of Weimar (1919-1932) to understand why Hitler was able to get the support from a huge part of the people.
                      As one can imagine, we discuss our past very often here in Germany and of course we ask ourselves "How would we have acted if we were in the situation in 1932/33?" Of course we all love to say that we would've resisted against Hitler, against the Nazis... but that's easy to say when you're not in that time in that certain situation.
                      Whatever... all I want to say is that it's not a good idea to compare the complex situation in which Hitler was able to gain power to a few changes in a NFL organization.

                      Btw: The first post is really a good one. A lot of people are way too negative here on the boards and I guess some aren't happy if there isn't anything to complain about. I mean, I think some people would even complain if we'd win the Superbowl just by a score of 14-7 and not 21-7. As mentioned before, it's ok to criticize actions made by the coach, the FO, etc... but are bad decisions by some people in this organization a reason to turn your back on the whole team? I'm sorry, but if one decides to turn his back on a team because he can't agree with a certain decision made by individuals on this team, then you can never be a fan of ANY team because there will always be decisions that people won't like.
                      sigpic

                      BRING BACK ORANGE!!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shardar View Post
                        Excuse me, but that's a really bad comparison. It's easy to say TODAY that you would have not followed Hitler if you lived in Germany before 1933. I mean, that situation was quite complicated and people had many different reasons to follow him... conservatives wishing to restore a huge german Reich, militarists that couldn't accept the loss in WW1, monarchists who yelled for a 'strong leadership', people from the working class that were unemployed and extremely poor and put all hopes in him. You need to look at the political chaos in the Republic of Weimar (1919-1932) to understand why Hitler was able to get the support from a huge part of the people.

                        As one can imagine, we discuss our past very often here in Germany and of course we ask ourselves "How would we have acted if we were in the situation in 1932/33?" Of course we all love to say that we would've resisted against Hitler, against the Nazis... but that's easy to say when you're not in that time in that certain situation.
                        Whatever... all I want to say is that it's not a good idea to compare the complex situation in which Hitler was able to gain power to a few changes in a NFL organization.
                        I agree that it is not wise to compare personnel changes on a football team after a coaching change to alleged collective responsibility of the German Nation for crimes of genocide initiated by a country as a result of the immoral, evil, and grossly criminal behavior of a charismatic leader.

                        What is fair is to state that you can be a fan of a football team without endorsing the moves of a new coaching regime. Many of us dislike many things about the actions of the new coach and don't think he represents a positive change for the Bronco Nation. Some of us find it really immature for the new coach not to admit that he messed up at some point in his dealings with Jay Cutler, to call him "the player" in press conferences when he was talking about him, and to antagonize people who are uncomfortable with being a copycat franchise of New England by adopting the slovenly clothing choices for dealing with the public used by the New England coach.

                        Many people here have urged Jay Cutler to grow up. I hope that our new coach can do the same.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post
                          My current view on the change is that putting in a new guy gives the ownership an excuse and time to go through a rebuilding year. Mike Shanahan always has to retool without failing, and that is why he had such a tough time getting back talent from the draft, because of his draft location.
                          I understand that we should technically be patient in rebuilding mode. Most here seem to have forgotten that both Bowlen & McD have been pitching to us and players that we are building to win now. If we don't have a winning season, then it is a failure, not by my standards, but the standards at which our genius head coach has set himself. Why do we have to be patient? They set the guidelines, not us. I was content with overachieving last year. I wasn't in a hurry to win last year or this year if it meant building a team with longevity. Now that I have been led to believe that we will win now, I'm expecting it.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            As a fan who's been critical of the front office moves (namely, the coach), I can appreciate this post.

                            I'm still a little irked at how quickly the fans turned on Cutler--sure he acted out of line, and sure he even admits he would have done things differently--but this is a guy who went in and worked his butt off for Denver ever since he got here. Unless you have some personal vendetta against him for not signing a jersey or something, I just don't get how you don't question a rookie outsider coach, and then turn on a player who's been with the team for 3 years. To me, it's about loyalty, and I'm not going to blindly accept Bowlen or the coach's decisions when I think they are BAD decisions. I'm also not going to jump ship, but I will voice my opinion.

                            From a fan's perspective, the whole "it's a business" logic is flawed. I think it's laughable when fan's use that line, since if we followed that statement to it's logical conclusion, then we should be dumping the Broncos like a failed company. When a company makes bad decisions, as perceived in the eyes of its shareholders, you dump the S out of that stock. You sell and you invest in a company that makes sound decisions....hey, "it's a business." Who still owns shares of GM? Nobody.

                            So as a fan, if you are going to use that line to justify everything that went down this offseason, then don't lash out against other fans who call out the front office. If it's really a business, then you should be the first to acknowledge that bad decisions (in the eyes of some fans) made by the company (the broncos) legitimates dropping that company like it's hot.

                            The beauty of being a Broncos fan (and a fan in general) is that for us, it's not a business! It's about loyalty, continuity, and winning with class. In other words, I don't want to see the Broncos "just win." I want to see the Broncos that have dedicated themselves to the city, to the community, to this team (Mike Leach comes to mind) to win.

                            If we had won the superbowl without Elway, it would have been sweet. But how much sweeter was it to win with John, after all those years of falling short?

                            The point is, we will all come back around to being chubby when the identity of the Broncos returns...part of the problem right now is I don't even know who this team is anymore. So it's gonna take some getting used to...

                            But don't fault us for being critical. And don't buy into the whole "it's a business" line....at least not from our perspective.
                            http://timtebowtime.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Everyone seems to be very upset about the Nazi comparison, but I think they're missing the point of the comparison, which is NOT saying that Bowlen and McDaniels are facist, racist, murders, or that the Nazi crimes are on a similar level of historical importance to the offseason moves of a football team.

                              The point being made is that your loyalties to anything shouldn't be blind. If the thing you are loyal to changes principles, are you still required to stay loyal just because it keeps the same name? For a less offensive example, how about fiction?

                              Hamlet is a very loyal man. He loves his family, he loves the kingdom. Hamlet's mom conspires to kill Hamlet's father, and then marry Hamlet's uncle, who then becomes king. Is Hamlet being disloyal to his family and his kingdom for wanting to take revenge? Or is he showing the depths of his loyalty, by refusing to allow his family and the kingdom to be dragged through the mud, even if it means facing up to his own mother and uncle?

                              As a Broncos fan, who loves the team and cares about loyalty, I personally feel like Bowlen just pulled a Gertrude. (which makes McDaniels into Claudius, the visible enemy who's easy to hate, but ultimately is less vile than Gertrude)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by ChicagoBronco View Post
                                Everyone seems to be very upset about the Nazi comparison, but I think they're missing the point of the comparison, which is NOT saying that Bowlen and McDaniels are facist, racist, murders, or that the Nazi crimes are on a similar level of historical importance to the offseason moves of a football team.

                                The point being made is that your loyalties to anything shouldn't be blind. If the thing you are loyal to changes principles, are you still required to stay loyal just because it keeps the same name? For a less offensive example, how about fiction?

                                Hamlet is a very loyal man. He loves his family, he loves the kingdom. Hamlet's mom conspires to kill Hamlet's father, and then marry Hamlet's uncle, who then becomes king. Is Hamlet being disloyal to his family and his kingdom for wanting to take revenge? Or is he showing the depths of his loyalty, by refusing to allow his family and the kingdom to be dragged through the mud, even if it means facing up to his own mother and uncle?

                                As a Broncos fan, who loves the team and cares about loyalty, I personally feel like Bowlen just pulled a Gertrude. (which makes McDaniels into Claudius, the visible enemy who's easy to hate, but ultimately is less vile than Gertrude)
                                the comparison still sucks because the german people loyalty to hitler in 1932/33 wasn't blind loyalty. he gave the country self worth and boosted up the country spirits because Germany was made to take the brunt of the blame for WW1. Germany was made to pay for most of the cost for WW1 by the allied countries in europe. their self esteem was crap and along came hitler an excellent motivator who made the german people feel good about being german, NATIONALISM.

                                that has nothing to do with what Bowlen and McDaniels have done here.
                                Most of the broncos fans that are sticking by McDaniels is not about blind faith.
                                It's about that we have moved on from being bitter and angry and are looking towards the future. there is nothing that can be done with cutler and it's over. why waste all this energy with holding grudges when we all should be looking forward to the draft.

                                Some of you get to carried away with the bitterness and the extreme comparisons get out of hand.
                                Blind loyalty has nothing to do with how the positive bronco fans think here.
                                Bronco fan 33 years and counting, GO BRONCOS!

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