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  • #31
    Originally posted by B4Bronco6 View Post
    The defense needs to improve, or we'll be almost worse than last year.
    Isn't "almost worse" better?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by oldster View Post
      Isn't "almost worse" better?
      I guess if you want to twist a message board post around. Sorry.

      We'll be worse than last year.

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      • #33
        Interesting perspective but I was just reading, sorry.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by McKeough View Post
          Our offense? Well, you're all familiar. We lost one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL (and no, just cause he isn't a Bronco anymore doesn't mean he now sucks) and brought in Orton, who, despite his now Bronco-status, isn't that good. He was in open competition with Rex Grossman and Brian Griese at one point and didn't win. Gives you an idea.
          First off, you're mistaken about the "competition." It was after Griese was traded back to the Bucs and Orton WON.

          As a rookie in 2005 he was relegated to 3rd string behind 2003 1st round pick Grossman and former Cowboys QB Chad Hutchinson. It was Ron Turner's 1st season as the Bears OC, so the entire Offense was learning his scheme. The coaches concentrated on Grossman and Hutchinson (starter & backup), not devoting much time to Kyle as he was a "project" to be worked on when time allowed. However, Rex broke his ankle in the preseason and Hutchinson then proceeded to have the gawd-awfullest meltdown a QB ever had in the preseason. So without any time at all, Orton went from the practice squad to starting for the Bears. He managed a 10-5 record, but it was ugly. With annointed-starter Grossman healing up and Kyle hitting a rookie wall late in the year, Orton was benched in favored of the 1st round pick - who promptly lost the playoff game to a Carolina team that the Bears had beaten easily during the regular season with Orton.

          The Bears not wanting to be without decent depth at the QB position brought in Brian Griese as a vet backup to the annointed-starter Grossman in 2006. Kyle was returned to the practice squad to take the time he missed the prior season to get up to the speed and complexity of the NFL game. The Bears went to the Super Bowl that year with Rex under center.

          So in 2007, the depth chart was still Grossman-Griese-Orton. However, Rex got off to a truly awful start and was benched in favor of Griese. After Griese managed to lose TWICE to the Detroit Lions, Rex became the starter again briefly, but was quickly injured. The Bears were 5-8 at that point and Kyle was given another shot. He led the Bears to finish the season with a 2-1 record (7-9 overall), including the only back-to-back wins of the season.

          On the strength of the 2007 finish, Kyle was finally "allowed" to compete with Rex for the starting spot - Griese had been traded back to the Bucs by then. Kyle was declared the winner of the competition - and if you look at Rex's preseason game against the Seahawks you'll understand why.

          At that point, Kyle started the 2008 season. With the Defense collapsing, Special Teams doing nothing special, a turnstile o-line and garbage WRs he proceeded to complete 143 of 230 passes (62.2%) for 1,669 yds (7.3 avg), 10 TDs (4.4%) and 4 INTs (1.7%) for a passer rating of 91.4 thru the first 7 games. Orton suffered his high-ankle sprain in game 8 and played injured for the rest of the season.

          If you look at Kyle's numbers before he was injured last season I believe that you'll see what kind of a QB you're getting. And if he could do that throwing to the likes of Marty Booker, Brandon Lloyd and Devin Hester just imagine what he might do with some real WRs like Marshall and Royal!
          "That's a crap question."
          - Kyle Orton

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          • #35
            Originally posted by broncofanatik View Post
            Not exactly. As McDaniels said in an interview while back, our offensive production was actually pretty bad. We were something like 29th in scoring after week 3 which is horrible. Our kickoff game and defense is absolute trash. I can see with the additions on defense we are already better, so that's hopeful. New system or not the defense will be better. As for offense, new system can only increase our production. Sure we wont throw for near as much yards, but if that translates rather into scoring more, i'm fine with it.

            Sure we lost our amazing qb, but looking at history of our new coaches it leads to optimism not pessimism.
            I crunched the numbers a while ago, and after week three I believe we scored one less point than the Chefs. Who wants to argue Thigpen (in his first year as a starter) had more weapons and a better line than Jay? I am sorry to see Jay go, but not Shanny and the between the 20s offensive system. We were not nearly as good offensively last year as some like to portray.

            A lot of people like to think it is a foregone conclusion we got the short end of the trade, but if we draft well, we could be set for years to come. Should be interesting.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
              Why does Orton have to turn into a pro bowl QB for the Broncos to be successful ?

              Orton never was in a open competition with Griese and Grossman and the Bears never really gave him much thought until after Grossman started stinking it up even though the team was winning nearly every game he started.


              I hate to break it to you but besides overall passing yardage Cutler really didnt set that high of a bar .

              Ive never seen one player get so much credit for doing nothing .

              Mia,Ten,Bal all made the playoffs without having a pro bowl QB.

              We didnt lose nearly as much as you think . Where is jays votes for offensive mvp ? league mvp ? Nowhere to be found because his 4000 yards overall were meaningless in the over scope of the nfl especially when you consider the attempts . There are probably 15-20 QBs in the nfl that would throw for 4000 yards if you let them throw 600+ times and didnt care about how many picks they threw . Youve been duped WAKE UP.

              Im sure Pitt fans would trade there SB for a pro bowl appearance or Big Ben .
              You would have been better off just listing Miami to bolster your statement. When you look at Tennessee and Baltimore the one aspect that stands out is DEFENSE. Even if you discount defense (which would be ludicrous) Tenn. had the smash and dash offense that relied heavily on their running game to put points on the board. Even Miami had its "wildcat" offense at the start of the season that caught a lot of teams by surprise while giving them W's to increase their chances of a play-off appearance.

              Denver does NOT have a "proven" rushing attack coming into this year. Sure we accumulated enough yards to be better than average last year, but those yards came because teams were focusing on stopping our passing attack. We certainly don't even come close to matching up to Tenn, or Baltimores defenses. "IF" we want to be competitive this year? (and I'm assuming we would, since thats the goal of any coach or team) Then we "HAVE" to drastically improve on defense AND find a running game that can dominate, not just complement a stellar passing attack.

              Was our passing game alone last year enough to propel us into the playoffs? Nope, it sure wasn't. Regardless of who is behind center you need to be balanced on offense and you need a defense that can hold its ground when the offense does stumble. Having a Cutler behind center though does give you a play-maker who "can" (and I stress can, not will....because the ability is there whether its used correctly or not) make some exceptional throws, and can use his legs as well to keep a drive alive.

              All playmakers have one thing in common at ANY position. If you watch enough game film of them you will see plays where you wonder what they were doing and why they didn't just make the safe play. We see it continually where a playmaking WR catches the ball and all he needs to do is fall forwards for the first down but yet he tries to spin, juke, twist, or reverse his direction and winds up losing yards at times. The same applies to RB's. You look at Barry Sanders stats and you will find MANY rushes that are for negative yards over the course of his career. You would also find MANY plays where he took a play that should have been a loss or no gain and turned it into a touchdown.

              The one thing that seperates the playmakers from the average good steady play of your normal players? Is ability. You can make all the arguments you want about Cutler vs Orton. You can agree to disagree (as I have with many) but the reality is that without a "playmaker" at the QB position you absolutely have to have a stellar rushing attack and/or defense to compensate for the safe playing style a nonplaymaker requires to be succesful. Kerry Collins? Come on , anyone who watched Tennessee play more than 3 games last year knows their rushing attack and their defense combined was the reason for their success.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by B4Bronco6 View Post
                Hopefully we'll be more balanced. Hell, especially on defense I hope.

                It all rides on those draft picks really, and how well some of the guys can transition to the 3-4.

                We better go D-line early in the draft.... And still with those guys selected, it takes a long time for a DL member to actually "get" the NFL game because their is a large learning curve for that position.

                The defense needs to improve, or we'll be almost worse than last year.

                I do not get why we are talking about next year. Before the Cutler fiasco, we were not a threat for next ear. We still are not a threat. I think the point is we actually have a chance to rebuild.

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                • #38
                  I don't think the "system" will turn us around. I think the "system" will be a good fit for our new QB. I think it's the philosophy that will turn us around.
                  "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

                  sigpic

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                  • #39
                    After Griese managed to lose TWICE to the Detroit Lions, Rex became the starter >>>

                    >>>Griese wasn't entirely at fault for those 2 losses. Ron Turner was running the offense, and Griese harmlessly told the media that his head set wasn't working during another game that year...a game that he won for the Bears on the final drive. Shortly thereafter, Griese was demoted and subsequently released after the falling out.



                    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
                    First off, you're mistaken about the "competition." It was after Griese was traded back to the Bucs and Orton WON.

                    As a rookie in 2005 he was relegated to 3rd string behind 2003 1st round pick Grossman and former Cowboys QB Chad Hutchinson. It was Ron Turner's 1st season as the Bears OC, so the entire Offense was learning his scheme. The coaches concentrated on Grossman and Hutchinson (starter & backup), not devoting much time to Kyle as he was a "project" to be worked on when time allowed. However, Rex broke his ankle in the preseason and Hutchinson then proceeded to have the gawd-awfullest meltdown a QB ever had in the preseason. So without any time at all, Orton went from the practice squad to starting for the Bears. He managed a 10-5 record, but it was ugly. With annointed-starter Grossman healing up and Kyle hitting a rookie wall late in the year, Orton was benched in favored of the 1st round pick - who promptly lost the playoff game to a Carolina team that the Bears had beaten easily during the regular season with Orton.

                    The Bears not wanting to be without decent depth at the QB position brought in Brian Griese as a vet backup to the annointed-starter Grossman in 2006. Kyle was returned to the practice squad to take the time he missed the prior season to get up to the speed and complexity of the NFL game. The Bears went to the Super Bowl that year with Rex under center.

                    So in 2007, the depth chart was still Grossman-Griese-Orton. However, Rex got off to a truly awful start and was benched in favor of Griese. After Griese managed to lose TWICE to the Detroit Lions, Rex became the starter again briefly, but was quickly injured. The Bears were 5-8 at that point and Kyle was given another shot. He led the Bears to finish the season with a 2-1 record (7-9 overall), including the only back-to-back wins of the season.

                    On the strength of the 2007 finish, Kyle was finally "allowed" to compete with Rex for the starting spot - Griese had been traded back to the Bucs by then. Kyle was declared the winner of the competition - and if you look at Rex's preseason game against the Seahawks you'll understand why.

                    At that point, Kyle started the 2008 season. With the Defense collapsing, Special Teams doing nothing special, a turnstile o-line and garbage WRs he proceeded to complete 143 of 230 passes (62.2%) for 1,669 yds (7.3 avg), 10 TDs (4.4%) and 4 INTs (1.7%) for a passer rating of 91.4 thru the first 7 games. Orton suffered his high-ankle sprain in game 8 and played injured for the rest of the season.

                    If you look at Kyle's numbers before he was injured last season I believe that you'll see what kind of a QB you're getting. And if he could do that throwing to the likes of Marty Booker, Brandon Lloyd and Devin Hester just imagine what he might do with some real WRs like Marshall and Royal!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by McKeough View Post
                      While I'm always optimistic about the upcoming season, I'm also a realist...

                      We were terrible last year with the exception of our offense, and we have, arguably, gotten worse.

                      We've brought in a bunch of washed-up defensive players who have never been stand out, with the exception of Dawkins. Even then, he's 36 and clearly lost a step.

                      I wouldn't consider our defense any worse, but I certainly wouldn't consider it any more than marginally better.

                      Our offense? Well, you're all familiar. We lost one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL (and no, just cause he isn't a Bronco anymore doesn't mean he now sucks) and brought in Orton, who, despite his now Bronco-status, isn't that good. He was in open competition with Rex Grossman and Brian Griese at one point and didn't win. Gives you an idea.

                      We downgraded HEAVILY at the QB position and our offense will suffer.

                      We added some much needed depth at RB, however, none of them are standout players. We proved last year that we have some quality players at the position (Hillis) and now we're stocked with average at best backs. We're looking at cutting a few because of roster spot issues, so we won't even be keeping them all.

                      Other than that, our team is pretty much intact from last season.

                      Now, Josh McDaniels doesn't have some 'magical' system that is going to turn Orton and our offense into something unstoppable. No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.

                      If it was as flawless as some of you make it sound with your predicted stats for Orton next season, EVERY team would be doing it.

                      Look at what that style of offense did with Tom Brady in it. Undefeated season and numerous records. A FRANCHISE quarterback.

                      Look what that virtually identical offense did with Cassell at the helm? Stats that were far from jaw-dropping, missed the playoffs, and weren't spectacular.

                      Sure, Cassell had a decent year - statically though, Tarvaris Jackson of the Vikings was on track for a better year, and I don't think ANYONE here would consider him a good quarterback.

                      Sorry for the rant, it's just been a long offseason, and all the people banking on this 'system' to turn Orton into a Pro-Bowl quarterback, and lead us to the playoffs are getting annoying.

                      We're worse than we were last year. And last year, we were bad.

                      is it any worse than people who were assuming a qb who has never been able to lead a team to the playoffs since HS, was all of the sudden going to figure it out?
                      sigpic

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                      • #41
                        I have a great idea stop assuming it won't.

                        Look Jay is gone....get over it already. Last time I checked he didn't throw the ball and hurry up and run to try to catch his own pass. Or did he block all the defenders coming at him to avoid sacks while he threw the ball to himself. It was and always will be a team. Get it!!! We still have the team mostly intact and with quite a few impressive additions to the defense. So let us see a season with all this in place and then come back see if optimism was such a bad idea. Go Broncos All The Way!!!
                        Always in support of my team. No matter what!:go:

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by #1broncofan4evr View Post
                          Look Jay is gone....get over it already. Last time I checked he didn't throw the ball and hurry up and run to try to catch his own pass. Or did he block all the defenders coming at him to avoid sacks while he threw the ball to himself. It was and always will be a team. Get it!!! We still have the team mostly intact and with quite a few impressive additions to the defense. So let us see a season with all this in place and then come back see if optimism was such a bad idea. Go Broncos All The Way!!!
                          If you notice, this thread isn't much about Jay. You can say "get over it" but the only one turning this into a Jay thread is you. Sorry.

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                          • #43
                            Sorry about bring up You know Who....

                            The point wasn't about him. It is just every since he has left it seems everyone assumes we cant play the game anymore. So I believe we will be just fine without you know who? I have always been a Bronco fan before that "player"" And will always be. I believe we are going be a lot better than people think. Wait and see. Go Broncos All the Way!!!
                            Always in support of my team. No matter what!:go:

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                            • #44
                              As soon as someone uses the term "realist" to describe themselves I pretty much stop reading. If someone as truely being a realist they would say they cannot predict the future instead of claiming they know what's going to happen. According to the OP we are all doomed to a season of failure. I'm not saying we will, or will not have a winning season, but to claim we are going in either direction when we are not even through the draft yet is rather lofty in the assumption department. If we are truly being "realists" then let's agree that no one here has any real, fact based clue how we will perform this season.

                              Another thing: This is only one of several dozen threads on a topic that has been beaten into the ground repeatedly over the last month. It's done. Nothing is going to change that fact. All the complaining in the world isn't going to fix anything. It's Ok to be pissed about it. I think everyone here gets that. Instead of dwelling on things that are finished we should be trying to look forward to how we can improve from here. At least that would be constructive.
                              Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by #1broncofan4evr View Post
                                The point wasn't about him. It is just every since he has left it seems everyone assumes we cant play the game anymore. So I believe we will be just fine without you know who? I have always been a Bronco fan before that "player"" And will always be. I believe we are going be a lot better than people think. Wait and see. Go Broncos All the Way!!!
                                Regardless of the circumstances, some people have the perspective that McD has a lot more to prove than anyone else in this situation, including myself. I'm not saying that I think it's all gloom and doom, but this year, it's a little difficult to be thinking that we are going to have a winning season. I am not one to set myself up for disappointment and prefer to stay the course of "expect the worst, hope for the best." This doesn't make me a pessimist.

                                I have reservations about his qualifications as a coach and apparently seems to be, short of a title, GM also. We were led to believe, by Pat Bowlen himself, that there would be checks and balances. Now, McD tells us that all football decisions start and stop with him. I have concerns that the team I love is being run SOLELY by an inexperienced HC. I thought the reason we did all this was for Bowlen to take back control of the organization. It seems as if he just gave it to somebody else. I don't like being misled and I don't trust McD or Xanders. Until we start winning games and looking like a good football team, I will watch and hope. My feelings don't come from being a Cutler lover, like some will peg me to be, but from my concern about the team that I love.

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