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  • #46
    This is an angry thread.
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    • #47
      Originally posted by Atwnbroncfan View Post
      This is an angry thread.
      It is. I believe it's the main issue that we are faced with now and explains why everyone is getting heated about it. I've said before that the Cutler trade is the byproduct of what's really going on here (and was shortly thereafter called disgusting by a fellow Bronco fan). We the fans, are the ones left to deal with the mess. Most of us aren't going anywhere, so we are either happy or upset about it and there's not much in between.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by tsiguy96 View Post
        one question: how many times this season did cutler chuck it to marshall long with scheffler sitting wide open 20 yards down field with NO ONE around him?

        that wont happen anymore, and it was arguably the most frustrating thing about watching football. the defense CANT really get worse, it would be near impossible, and under mike nolan i expect them to get better atleast. having a coach who understands the importance of defense is huge.

        we could have a better year than last year for sure.
        yeah that's the same thing I said last year, how did that turn out?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Road_Apples View Post
          My opinion is Cutler was not worth having considering his needs, and his performance. Yes he broke Elways records, but it took decimating the Defense and ST to accomplish that.
          So your point is I guess that you cant have both a franchise QB and a good defense. One will suffer for the other? Hmmm, doesnt seem to be the case in Indianapolis... or Pittsburgh... Wasnt the case when a dude named Elway was here or some guy named Favre played in Green Bay. The two dont have to be mutuallt exclusive.
          It "took" decimating the defense? I dont think thats what it took. That is on the other hand, what happened but I certainly dont think it was a conscious choice by the outsted regime.
          He (Shanahan) obviously didnt have the eye for defensive talent like he did for offensive and therefore missed on a lot of players he thougt would improve the defense.
          But your asserting that the defense has been totally ignored (Ill assume you mean through the draft and free agency) and thats just not accurate.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by McKeough View Post
            While I'm always optimistic about the upcoming season, I'm also a realist...

            We were terrible last year with the exception of our offense, and we have, arguably, gotten worse.

            We've brought in a bunch of washed-up defensive players who have never been stand out, with the exception of Dawkins. Even then, he's 36 and clearly lost a step.

            I wouldn't consider our defense any worse, but I certainly wouldn't consider it any more than marginally better.

            Our offense? Well, you're all familiar. We lost one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL (and no, just cause he isn't a Bronco anymore doesn't mean he now sucks) and brought in Orton, who, despite his now Bronco-status, isn't that good. He was in open competition with Rex Grossman and Brian Griese at one point and didn't win. Gives you an idea.

            We downgraded HEAVILY at the QB position and our offense will suffer.

            We added some much needed depth at RB, however, none of them are standout players. We proved last year that we have some quality players at the position (Hillis) and now we're stocked with average at best backs. We're looking at cutting a few because of roster spot issues, so we won't even be keeping them all.

            Other than that, our team is pretty much intact from last season.

            Now, Josh McDaniels doesn't have some 'magical' system that is going to turn Orton and our offense into something unstoppable. No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.

            If it was as flawless as some of you make it sound with your predicted stats for Orton next season, EVERY team would be doing it.

            Look at what that style of offense did with Tom Brady in it. Undefeated season and numerous records. A FRANCHISE quarterback.

            Look what that virtually identical offense did with Cassell at the helm? Stats that were far from jaw-dropping, missed the playoffs, and weren't spectacular.

            Sure, Cassell had a decent year - statically though, Tarvaris Jackson of the Vikings was on track for a better year, and I don't think ANYONE here would consider him a good quarterback.

            Sorry for the rant, it's just been a long offseason, and all the people banking on this 'system' to turn Orton into a Pro-Bowl quarterback, and lead us to the playoffs are getting annoying.

            We're worse than we were last year. And last year, we were bad.

            OK, where to start? First up, Andre Goodman and Renaldo Hill are not washed up. Most of last year, Goodman supplied pro bowl coverage. Hill is a very solid starter.

            Of course McD's system worked because of all the talent. The same type of talent we have here. We have the best pass blocking O-Line in the league, a great reciever and other very good recievers. If I remember correctly Orton was extremely productive in a Purdue spread offense.

            Cutler has an unbelievable amount of potential, but im curious to see what happens to him in Chicago without weapons or a line to protect him.

            I doubt we'll be a serious contender this year, but in my eyes the future is only looking bright.
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            • #51
              Originally posted by broncolee View Post
              This is where your rant loses all credibility. The Patsies went 11-5. How often is it that an 11-5 team misses the playoffs? I'll give you a hint, it's not very often. The fact that the Patsies went 11-5 and missed the playoffs only illustrates how good the AFC was last year, outside of the AFC West. The fact is, the Patsies were a winning team last year, with a career back up starting at quarterback. The fact that they were not as productive as the year before is completely irrelevant. It is unlikely that they would have been much better if Brady hadn't gotten hurt. Even if they would have been, the bottom line is, they were still a winning team without Brady.
              The real fact is, that Cassel had a solid supporting cast around him and wasn't put into a position where he had win games for them. The other real fact is that while the Patriots went 11-5 they couldn't beat teams that were their equal in talent.
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              • #52
                Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
                First of all, you can't compare Jay Cutler with Tom Brady. Brady is a multi-time Pro Bowl QB who threw 50 TDs against 6 INTs in 2007. Cutler is closer to Cassel. We are still searching for a franchise QB to lead us to the playoffs since Jake Plummer was benched and traded. Byron Leftwich could be considered as much of a franchise QB to Jacksonville as Jay Cutler to Denver. Leftwich played 4 seasons for the Jaguars, being the starter for 3 years. Cutler only played as the undisputed starter for 2 seasons and failed to win when it mattered. I doubt he will put the same stats playing for the Bears. They like to run a lot (Forte ran for 1200+ yards averaging only 3.9 ypc), the system is not QB-friendly, their OL is average at best and their WRs are still learning how to run routes and catch the ball. Maybe we will not see rocket throws anymore but if we see less mistakes and better decision making we can even win more games. McDaniels did a great job in New England. In Denver, the OL is better and maybe younger, we have plenty of capable WRs and two good TEs. Why would he fail? I don't want to know how many yards Cutler and Cassel piled up, because yards mean nothing if you don't score. In the end, Cutler threw only 4 more TDs than Cassel and 7 more picks. Cassel had better QB rating and completion %. They had the same 7.3 passing avg. We still have a lot of ammo in the Draft, these picks will be key to our success. With these four 1st round picks, we can build our 3-4 defense much faster than expected. Our chances are good.
                Rod, those people are still pissed-off we traded Cutler. They're a Cutler fan first, and then a Broncos fan second, ONLY if we're winning
                They need to become bears' fans and get over it
                They're trying to analyze stuff they don't have a clue how it works
                We have one of the best offensive talent in the league and just because we lost Cutler we're now worse?


                This statement shows how ignorant this guy is:
                Now, Josh McDaniels doesn't have some 'magical' system that is going to turn Orton and our offense into something unstoppable. No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.

                If it was as flawless as some of you make it sound with your predicted stats for Orton next season, EVERY team would be doing it.
                Hmm? Last time I've heard, NE system has been copied partially by a lot of teams in the NFL including the Broncos. Their formula for success has also been imitated
                And to say or imply that NE has better talent than we do on offense, is crazy.
                So you can't argue that the McD system is an effective system, it's QB friendly, it's not that difficult, you've got to have the right players around to make it work. I said the right players, NOT the best talented players
                New England failed to make the play0offs at 11-5 on a tie-breaker. How many times has it happened in the NFL a team with an 11-5 record misses the play-offs. That just tells me how competitive their division was last year, and not that NE was terrible...
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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Lilrush View Post
                  I crunched the numbers a while ago, and after week three I believe we scored one less point than the Chefs. Who wants to argue Thigpen (in his first year as a starter) had more weapons and a better line than Jay? I am sorry to see Jay go, but not Shanny and the between the 20s offensive system. We were not nearly as good offensively last year as some like to portray.

                  A lot of people like to think it is a foregone conclusion we got the short end of the trade, but if we draft well, we could be set for years to come. Should be interesting.
                  This is exactly right.

                  Shanahan was all about his offensive rankings and numbers, except where it counted, on the scoreboard.

                  For all of Jay's ability and so-called accomplishments on offense, it did not translate to wins.

                  Jake Plummer was 40-19 during his tenure, so there is no reason to assume the Broncos can't win games with Orton.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by MindField View Post
                    For all of Jay's ability and so-called accomplishments on offense, it did not translate to wins.
                    Are you guys kidding with this argument? How exactly do you think Orton would have done on this team? You know, when he was asked to carry the team? One without a defense and with 7 injured backs? So what exactly is your point? Are you guys trying to say Orton is better? Are you trying to say this team is better building around Orton? THat a defense and an Orton led offense is better than a team with a defense and Cutler led offense?

                    You people make no sense. Otherwise you don't watch football.

                    Also, you guys try bashing our offense for the defense and special teams being bad. That is the only reason we are in the middle of the pack in scoring. We are top 1/3rd of the league in OFFENSIVE scoring.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TXBRONC View Post
                      The real fact is, that Cassel had a solid supporting cast around him and wasn't put into a position where he had win games for them. The other real fact is that while the Patriots went 11-5 they couldn't beat teams that were their equal in talent.
                      This whole Matt Cassel thing is crazy already. Not only did he take a SB team and led them out of contention, but they had one of the most cushy schedules in the league, something I don't see anybody bringing up. Let's see... they played: SF, Us, STL, OAK, KC, BUF & SEA. That's 7 teams with a .500 record or worse. C'mon people. They should have made the playoffs with that caliber of team and the schedule they had.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Buenacolt11 View Post
                        So your point is I guess that you cant have both a franchise QB and a good defense. One will suffer for the other? Hmmm, doesnt seem to be the case in Indianapolis... or Pittsburgh... Wasnt the case when a dude named Elway was here or some guy named Favre played in Green Bay. The two dont have to be mutuallt exclusive.
                        It "took" decimating the defense? I dont think thats what it took. That is on the other hand, what happened but I certainly dont think it was a conscious choice by the outsted regime.
                        He (Shanahan) obviously didnt have the eye for defensive talent like he did for offensive and therefore missed on a lot of players he thougt would improve the defense.
                        But your asserting that the defense has been totally ignored (Ill assume you mean through the draft and free agency) and thats just not accurate.
                        The point being made is that Shanahan was horrible @ finding defensive players and it rests on nobody, but him since he was the GM. If we had a better scouting team giving him a real gm personel decision our defensive would've been a lot better off. I'm optimistic to see what McHoodie n CO do with you draft picks its not often you get 2 1st round picks in consecutive years.
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by McKeough View Post
                          While I'm always optimistic about the upcoming season, I'm also a realist...

                          We were terrible last year with the exception of our offense, and we have, arguably, gotten worse.
                          Pure speculation, and we have arguably gotten better.

                          We've brought in a bunch of washed-up defensive players who have never been stand out, with the exception of Dawkins. Even then, he's 36 and clearly lost a step.
                          Washed up, andre, fields, renaldo hill, i don't think they fit the bill of "washed up", they are situational players that are an improvement over the tallent that we fielded last year. Dawkins may have lost a step, but durring the playoffs how many sports reporters couldn't quit slobering all over how dominant he was, i was so tired of hearing those talkes that i tuned out the philly games. He still has incredable playmaking ability, and if anything is the LEADER that this new defense is going to need so that they can become a unit with so many new faces.

                          I wouldn't consider our defense any worse, but I certainly wouldn't consider it any more than marginally better.
                          New PROVEN DC, installing an actual deffensive scheme.
                          3 to 4 New Starters, that out performed the 2007 starters.
                          2009 draft loaded with D tallent, the posibility of 2-3 imediate impact players.

                          Marginally doesn't even come close to showing what this team has prepared to do defensively.


                          Our offense? Well, you're all familiar. We lost one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL (and no, just cause he isn't a Bronco anymore doesn't mean he now sucks) and brought in Orton, who, despite his now Bronco-status, isn't that good. He was in open competition with Rex Grossman and Brian Griese at one point and didn't win. Gives you an idea. We downgraded HEAVILY at the QB position and our offense will suffer.
                          The best QB in the league...........was that in interceptions, home losses, or pouting comments in the news paper?

                          Jay has a lot of tallent, and a big arm, but there is no Denying that he had a luxury offensive line, an incredible group of recievers, and a wizard of an offensive mastermind in shannahan.

                          Orton, surpased Drew brees's numbers at purdue, was considered a much better tallent with a bigger arm, and went to chicago. A ball control offense, with a deffensive coach and marginal tallent at Offensive Coordinator, not to mention the patchwork offensive line, and "b" rate recievers.

                          Orton may not have NEAR the tallent that Jay does, but to assume he can't win given the tale of two COMPLETELY differnt offensive teams, is 100% unfounded.

                          The Pro bowl is a popularity contest, last year 3 of the 6 Prow bowl QB's didn't make the playoff's, out of the 12 TEAMS that made the playoffs, only 3 of them had a "pro Bowl" QB.

                          Indy....Peyton enough said, but was knocked out of the Wild Card Round
                          NYG.....Eli....he was getting ready to be ran out of town, his team put togeather an incredible rin to win the SB, and he got voted in dispite marginal QBnumbers.. Giants #1 NFC seed, but beat in the 1St round of the Playoff's
                          AZ - Kurt Warner, had an incredible year, pro bowl QB, great numbers and made the SB nothing to take away from him, but lots of people were mad that Arizona sat there high powered young tallent for a "washed up" QB.

                          Football is a TEAM sport, and you don't need a pro bowl QB to make the playoff's, and sure don't need a Pro Bowl QB to win the SB, although Big Ben will make it next year as almost always the defending champ QB goes to the PB, regardless of their sometimes pedestrian numbers.



                          We added some much needed depth at RB, however, none of them are standout players. We proved last year that we have some quality players at the position (Hillis) and now we're stocked with average at best backs. We're looking at cutting a few because of roster spot issues, so we won't even be keeping them all.
                          Situational RB's to use RB by committy, and at a VERY minimum create a solid compition for the starting position, and have a deep stable in the event of last years mass pilings of injury.


                          Other than that, our team is pretty much intact from last season.

                          Now, Josh McDaniels doesn't have some 'magical' system that is going to turn Orton and our offense into something unstoppable. No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.

                          If it was as flawless as some of you make it sound with your predicted stats for Orton next season, EVERY team would be doing it.

                          Look at what that style of offense did with Tom Brady in it. Undefeated season and numerous records. A FRANCHISE quarterback.

                          Look what that virtually identical offense did with Cassell at the helm? Stats that were far from jaw-dropping, missed the playoffs, and weren't spectacular.

                          Sure, Cassell had a decent year - statically though, Tarvaris Jackson of the Vikings was on track for a better year, and I don't think ANYONE here would consider him a good quarterback.

                          Sorry for the rant, it's just been a long offseason, and all the people banking on this 'system' to turn Orton into a Pro-Bowl quarterback, and lead us to the playoffs are getting annoying.

                          We're worse than we were last year. And last year, we were bad.

                          The rest is just an emotion filled rant, brady WAS a 6th round nobody, until he shocked the "greatest show on Turf" in 2001. He has had solid seasons, good stats, and SB wins, but didn't break records or scorch the turf....until McDaniels season and broke all sorts of records. Cassle 7th round career back up, racked up above average stats, and contined to progress through the season, was HORRID in the preseason, and evolved into a descent QB, with limited tallent, if anything reaks of "the system" it is that, either Cassle sucks and it was the system, or cassle is an above average QB, you pick you can't have it both ways. Cassle can't suck, and the system sucks, that doesn't pan out with the evidence.

                          I think cassle is below average, and the scheme made him look good, that only leaves great things to come.

                          Orton is not better than cutler, but orton + 2 players makes the BRONCOS better than the broncos with Cutler.

                          The bronco's have made some INCREDIBLE strides this offseason to get back to a winning team, Great Coaches, Great Assistants and are workng hard.

                          I for one am excited and will love to see the additions coming throught the draft to this already improved team.
                          Last edited by owninit; 04-14-2009, 08:21 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jhns View Post
                            Are you guys kidding with this argument? How exactly do you think Orton would have done on this team? You know, when he was asked to carry the team? One without a defense and with 7 injured backs? So what exactly is your point? Are you guys trying to say Orton is better? Are you trying to say this team is better building around Orton? THat a defense and an Orton led offense is better than a team with a defense and Cutler led offense?

                            You people make no sense. Otherwise you don't watch football.

                            Also, you guys try bashing our offense for the defense and special teams being bad. That is the only reason we are in the middle of the pack in scoring. We are top 1/3rd of the league in OFFENSIVE scoring.
                            Then how do you explain the Miami and Buffalo losses last season?

                            The defense certainly played well enough to win those games.

                            This idea from the Jay crackheads that it was all defense is simply a myth.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Lilrush View Post
                              I crunched the numbers a while ago, and after week three I believe we scored one less point than the Chefs.
                              Why do we make stuff up to bash the Broncos?

                              The Broncos were 11th in OFFENSIVE scoring.

                              The Chiefs were 25th.......

                              How exactly did they score one point more?

                              Edit: Here is what I am going off of, you can check the math if you like: http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...6&postcount=26
                              Last edited by jhns; 04-14-2009, 08:22 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by MindField View Post
                                Then how do you explain the Miami and Buffalo losses last season?

                                The defense certainly played well enough to win those games.

                                This idea from the Jay crackheads that it was all defense is simply a myth.
                                Because Brady and everyone else that is a good QB doesn't lose any games at all. A third year QB should never have a bad game. The fact that he had no run game and the youth around him was making mistakes is not a factor either. You are right mind. It was all Jay. So you are saying we are going to the playoffs this season now that we have a winner like Orton?

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