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  • #76
    Originally posted by Tackle Me Elmo View Post
    I'm sorry, so what is your point? Are you implying that an Orton led offense is an upgrade from last year? What "flaws" did the Broncos offense have that are now fixed??? If you are implying that Cutler was the flaw and Orton is the answer, then you are the one who needs a reality check.

    Watch what Orton does with the horrible field position our ST and D will put us in. And then watch what Cutler does with a short field in Chicago.

    I can't believe the Broncos organization (McDaniels) is bring up stats about a 16th ranked scoring offense when the most telling stat is that our defense only accomplished 11 turnovers ALL year. Imagine that...a team that goes 8-8 with one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.
    He actually said we were 16th in scoring, not offensive scoring. There's a big difference that most will ignore here.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by jhns View Post
      I said show me the red zone INT's that he kept throwing. We all know his total turnover numbers. I want someone to verify this claim that he always messed up in the red zone. To me, it seemed like he messed up on his own side of the field 90% of the time. So what are the red zone stats.

      Also, some of those 20 are not to him. Like the couple times the receivers ran the wrong routes and cut the wrong way. If you want to make excuses on why he should have had more, why can't you do it the other way?
      Sorry, specifically within the red zone Jay had 26 TDs and 5 ints. For comparison Kyle was 21-2.

      Opponents 19-1 yard lines, QB rating Jay 74.1, Kyle 96
      Opponents 9-Goal Line, QB rating Jay 73, Kyle 75.9
      Last edited by oldster; 04-14-2009, 12:01 PM. Reason: More interesting stats

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      • #78
        End of Season

        I find it bizarre that people complain about last year's offense when at the end of the year there was no healthy running back on the roster who was there at the start of the year. Just how many RB's were on the injured reserve list? It puts a terrible burden on a quarterback when you have no running game.

        Did anyone watch the first Oakland game? Shanahan's game plan was outrageously good. I will miss that first scripted offensive drive by Shanahan. It was usually a work of art, by a HOF coach. How he keep the offense together with all of the backfield injuries I guess is a tribute to Rick D and Bobby T as well as Shanahan. Thank goodness they are still here.

        Why anyone wants to tinker with a healthy Mike Shanahan offense is beyond my ability to comprehend. Oh, unless you are a young new coach and you want to set yourself up ....

        Oh, never mind.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post

          Why anyone wants to tinker with a healthy Mike Shanahan offense is beyond my ability to comprehend. Oh, unless you are a young new coach and you want to set yourself up ....

          Oh, never mind.

          We won one playoff game it ten years, and we were lucky at that. Shanny is gone. Why is that so hard to understand. Are you seriously expecting a new coach to keep the old system?

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post

            Why anyone wants to tinker with a healthy Mike Shanahan offense is beyond my ability to comprehend. Oh, unless you are a young new coach and you want to set yourself up ....
            There may have have been but I can't think of any new head coach who did not bring in his own system or at least major tweaks to the existing one. It is also obvious (we'll just have to wait and see) that McD did not consider the offense all that healthy.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Tackle Me Elmo View Post
              I'm sorry, so what is your point? Are you implying that an Orton led offense is an upgrade from last year? What "flaws" did the Broncos offense have that are now fixed??? If you are implying that Cutler was the flaw and Orton is the answer, then you are the one who needs a reality check.

              Watch what Orton does with the horrible field position our ST and D will put us in. And then watch what Cutler does with a short field in Chicago.

              I can't believe the Broncos organization (McDaniels) is bring up stats about a 16th ranked scoring offense when the most telling stat is that our defense only accomplished 11 turnovers ALL year. Imagine that...a team that goes 8-8 with one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.

              I dont know how many times this needs to be said but the Bears average starting position was not nearly as good as it had been in the past . Hester didnt return not one kick for a td and his PR average was like 6 yards .

              Right now people keep using 2006 scouting reports for the bears instead of dealing with the facts.

              The field position wasnt that good due to penalties and a poor coverage team as the bears lost their special teams leader Brendon Ayanbadejo
              Hester returned no kicks for tds and the bears defense which was usually great with a lead blew leads and were 30th in the lead in passing.

              Jay is not joining the same team that went to the SB even though Bears fans like to talk like it is the numbers and the record says it is not.
              "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

              "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

              Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

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              • #82
                Originally posted by jhns View Post
                He only had 2 good games but got 4550 yards and 25 TD's? Those must have been two of the best games to ever be played by a QB. Especially considering that yardage is something like 18th all time.
                Vinny Testaverde threw for over 40,000 yards in his career....was he a 'great' QB?

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Tackle Me Elmo View Post
                  I'm sorry, so what is your point? Are you implying that an Orton led offense is an upgrade from last year? What "flaws" did the Broncos offense have that are now fixed??? If you are implying that Cutler was the flaw and Orton is the answer, then you are the one who needs a reality check.

                  Watch what Orton does with the horrible field position our ST and D will put us in. And then watch what Cutler does with a short field in Chicago.

                  I can't believe the Broncos organization (McDaniels) is bring up stats about a 16th ranked scoring offense when the most telling stat is that our defense only accomplished 11 turnovers ALL year. Imagine that...a team that goes 8-8 with one of the worst defenses in the history of the league.
                  I am implying that the Broncos have not played a game yet under McDaniels, so unlike you and others around here, I am not going to cry about it until they do. They have not made their selections in the draft, so anything regarding the Broncos and next season is speculation, period.

                  McDaniels comes from a winning background, and has made some moves that I believe in. I like the emphasis on getting bigger and more physical on defense, because God knows that was not going to happen under Mike Shanahan, so the reality is, the Broncos weren't going anywhere with Cutler anyway.

                  Unlike others, I don't think Jay Cutler was a sure-fire, no brainer Pro Bowl QB, in fact, far from it.
                  He never engineered a winning record or a playoff win, and in fact played poorly in two games where the Broncos could have clinched one. No, it was not all his fault, but he did not hold up his end of the bargain, either.

                  ...and yes, I also think the Broncos can win games without him.
                  Last edited by MindField; 04-14-2009, 01:08 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by MindField View Post
                    Vinny Testaverde threw for over 40,000 yards in his career....was he a 'great' QB?
                    I fail to see the comparison. When was the last time Vinny threw for 4500 yards in a single season? His career was like 55 years. Of course he threw for a ton of yards. To answer your question, I do think Vinny had a great career. I'm not saying he is great, but I also have never made that claim about Cutler.

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                    • #85
                      Revisionist History

                      Football fans have short memories, fair enough, and want to root for their team, no matter what silly moves new people make in the off-season, but what is pretty amusing is that the same people who were rooting for Jay Cutler as a bright spot in last year's successes are now trying to rip him apart and minimize him. Commentators are avoiding the injuries and lack of a running game like it didn't happen....

                      and, although some are now fair weather fans, dumping on Mike Shanahan, who was the only coach who got us the only Bronco Super Bowl trophies in any of our lifetimes, let's chat next Fall and see if the new coach's potent offense can drive down the ball on the opening kickoff for a touchdown.

                      We are all just speculating now, we just have differing opinions on how to construe the past. I come to praise Mike Shanahan and Jay Cutler, not to bury them, as some now are want to do. Give some credit for some good moments the last few years; we will see how this next year goes.

                      Mike and the Goodmans picked some good players for the team and it will be interesting to see if they grow under the new regime.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by MindField View Post
                        I am implying that the Broncos have not played a game yet under McDaniels, so unlike you and others around here, I am not going to cry about it until they do. They have not made their selections in the draft, so anything regarding the Broncos and next season is speculation, period.
                        You're funny...and irrational. Since when did questioning management decisions equate to "crying"? Should we also accuse you of crying for questioning Shanny's moves?

                        And thank you for being a master of the obvious: "anything regarding the Broncos and next season is speculation, period." Who isn't "speculating" around here? You speculate yourself when you say the Broncos weren't going anywhere with Cutler. Dismissing our criticism of McDaniel's moves because they are "speculative" is pointless. We should all dismiss your support for McDaniel's because it's "speculative".

                        Unlike others, I don't think Jay Cutler was a sure-fire, no brainer Pro Bowl QB, in fact, far from it.
                        He never engineered a winning record or a playoff win, and in fact played poorly in two games where the Broncos could have clinched one. No, it was not all his fault, but he did not hold up his end of the bargain, either.
                        Playing poorly in two games is true, but it's fans like you who need a reality check when you think this offense is remedied by substituting Orton in for Cutler. Your blind optimism is ridiculous, in fact, it's laughable that fans who blindly support the front office moves think they're "better" fans who don't "cry" about business decisions. What do you want, a sticker that says "#1 Fan"???

                        Get off your self-righteous horse.
                        http://timtebowtime.blogspot.com/

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                        • #87
                          JHNS, I gave you the red zone stats, what are your comments now?

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by oldster View Post
                            JHNS, I gave you the red zone stats, what are your comments now?
                            I would say those show that people are wrong about this offense when they say we always turned it over in the red zone. How many red zone trips did we have? Cutler threw 5 picks in 16 games and all those trips and that = him always throwing INT's in the red zone? I think that shows that he had int's on a very small percentage of his red zone visits.

                            As for the comparison to Orton. I don't really have a comment unless you are trying to say he is better than Cutler. If that is the case, I have a lot of comments and I'm sure noone wants to get into that.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jhns View Post
                              I would say those show that people are wrong about this offense when they say we always turned it over in the red zone. How many red zone trips did we have? Cutler threw 5 picks in 16 games and all those trips and that = him always throwing INT's in the red zone? I think that shows that he had int's on a very small percentage of his red zone visits.

                              As for the comparison to Orton. I don't really have a comment unless you are trying to say he is better than Cutler. If that is the case, I have a lot of comments and I'm sure noone wants to get into that.
                              You specifically asked for red zone interceptions and I gave you same. You had stated before that you thought most of his interceptions were in his own end, well 28% or knocking on a third were in the red zone. As for Kyle, you have stated or agreed categorically that Jay was the superior QB. Perhaps overall but not passing in the red zone.
                              Last edited by oldster; 04-14-2009, 01:55 PM. Reason: insertion

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by oldster View Post
                                You specifically asked for red zone interceptions and I gave you same. You had stated before that you thought most of his interceptions were in his own end, well 28% or knocking on a third were in the red zone. As for Kyle, you have stated or agreed categorically that Jay was the superior QB. Perhaps overall but not passing in the red zone.
                                I did say 90%. I thought I said the majority. He still had by far the majority of his mistakes outside of the red zone and didn't throw picks nearly as often as people make it seem. LIke I said. Now look at the number of trips to the red zone. I bet it shows he threw INT's on a pretty small percentage of the time he made it to the red zone.

                                That claim was to counter this claim by dragster earlier in the thread: "He did cost us games via INT's in the redzone and end zone. That you can't argue against..." Which is something I see constantly. Well, if those were all in different games, with the game on the line, he could have cost us 5 games that way with what you showed. I doubt that was the case, so lets say he cost us about 2 games that way. The claim that he constantly throws picks in the red zone is not supported by what you showed.

                                As for Ortons numbers. Not likely. Those just show that he was 5 TD's less productive. That means he wasn't asked to do as much, or couldn't get as much done. He also had a run game that worked in the red zone. Something we only had with Pittman and Hillis.
                                Last edited by jhns; 04-14-2009, 02:25 PM.

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