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  • #91
    OMG Paaaalese!

    Originally posted by broncofanatik View Post
    It's as realistic to think we will do better than it is to think we will do worse. You can make arguments for both. Why not just wait to see what we do in the draft and pre-season before yelling the sky is falling and doom and gloom all over the board.
    You can NOT seriously think this team will be better this coming season.

    There's a method rational humans use to determine such things. Its called emperical evidence, proof as it were. We saw Proof last year we stink! And you sir have zero evidence that we will be better.

    We know the team has down graded at the QB position, there is no question about it, the FA who were cut from their teams and rookies from the draft arent going to turn this team around next year.

    I bet Broncofanatik is mad as hell about game 7.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by DieHard View Post
      You can NOT seriously think this team will be better this coming season.

      There's a method rational humans use to determine such things. Its called emperical evidence, proof as it were. We saw Proof last year we stink! And you sir have zero evidence that we will be better.

      We know the team has down graded at the QB position, there is no question about it, the FA who were cut from their teams and rookies from the draft arent going to turn this team around next year.

      I bet Broncofanatik is mad as hell about game 7.
      Do you not think that we upgraded at defense? I know we didn't get tons of big named, expensive guys. But I really think that many of the guys we dumped were awful. Engleberger, Niko, Manuel, McCree, Winborn? Clearly, the fact that other teams aren't falling over themselves to sign them sort of illustrates the point. Just replacing them with average talent dramatically improves the defense. With our signings and the upcoming draft, we stand a chance to do at least that.

      I guess you feel like they were pretty good. Perhaps that's your empirical observation skills at work.
      "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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      • #93
        Originally posted by DieHard View Post
        You can NOT seriously think this team will be better this coming season.

        There's a method rational humans use to determine such things. Its called emperical evidence, proof as it were. We saw Proof last year we stink! And you sir have zero evidence that we will be better.

        We know the team has down graded at the QB position, there is no question about it, the FA who were cut from their teams and rookies from the draft arent going to turn this team around next year.

        I bet Broncofanatik is mad as hell about game 7.
        Ah yes.

        Because teams never go from last to first in single season, right?

        Wait...that can't be it.

        Because first year coaches never make it to the playoffs with rookie QB's?

        Wait...that can't be it.

        Because QB's that are traded to different systems have never made the playoffs or produced winning records?

        Wait...that can't be it.

        Because rookies never start and make impacts on teams?

        Wait...that can't be it.

        I'm stumped.

        We're doomed!
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        Adopted by: Peanut

        "You find ways to win and certainly you can find ways to lose...it's not just dumb luck."
        -Sean Payton

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        • #94
          Originally posted by jhns View Post
          I did say 90%. I thought I said the majority. He still had by far the majority of his mistakes outside of the red zone and didn't throw picks nearly as often as people make it seem. LIke I said. Now look at the number of trips to the red zone. I bet it shows he threw INT's on a pretty small percentage of the time he made it to the red zone.

          That claim was to counter this claim by dragster earlier in the thread: "He did cost us games via INT's in the redzone and end zone. That you can't argue against..." Which is something I see constantly. Well, if those were all in different games, with the game on the line, he could have cost us 5 games that way with what you showed. I doubt that was the case, so lets say he cost us about 2 games that way. The claim that he constantly throws picks in the red zone is not supported by what you showed.

          As for Ortons numbers. Not likely. Those just show that he was 5 TD's less productive. That means he wasn't asked to do as much, or couldn't get as much done. He also had a run game that worked in the red zone. Something we only had with Pittman and Hillis.
          You have an interesting way of interpreting things but let's go with your assumption. We win 2 more games and we are in the playoffs.

          Jay's TD vs INT ratio in the red zone is less than stellar, Kyle's numbers were better, nothing more, nothing less. Chicago also rated higher on overall scoring efficiency in the red zone with Denver being ranked 16th and Chicago 12th. Coincidently Chicago was only in the red zone 5 less times than Denver all season.

          In fairness the majority of Jay's picks (13) were on our side of the field, 6 of which or 33% of total picks were inside our own 20. Not a good position to be putting a pitiful defense in, ya think?

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          • #95
            I am really hoping that Orton can do well this year. I am also hoping that McDaniels moves beyond this controversy and can put together a team that wins ballgames. Why wouldn't I hope these things? After all I am a Broncos fan just as everyone else is on these boards (other than a few fans of other teams that enjoy talking with us, and a plethora of Trolls that enjoy trying to stir up controversy).

            I would like to make one point that is undeniable and imo can not be argued with. Many on here want to complain about turnovers in the redzone by Cutler. I think the actual stats were 5 that had him to blame directly. Others want to complain about our redzone scoring %. Still others say that Cutler was no good and the team is better off without him. There are even those who honestly feel that we will certainly be a better team offensively because he is gone. I'm not here to argue whether we will play well this year. I'm not here to argue whether Orton is better than Cutler. I'm not even here to argue about whether McDaniels is a good coach.

            The one point I do want to make? Take any Qb past or present in the NFL, put them in a situation where they have virtually no consistent rushing attack in the redzone, and then compare their stats to Cutler. While your at it? Only use QB's that passed over 600 times in one season. Also since we are going to dig into the records over the past however many years? Lets only use QB's whose defense was in the bottom dwellers of the league at that time. I don't know for sure what stats you might come up with. I would however be willing to bet that under all those circumstances? Cutlers numbers, whether your talking wins, redzone scoring, turnovers, or whatever else you like? Aren't too shabby in comparison.

            For those who will immediately mention Hillis and Pittman as power runners who could put points on the board? Fine, lets go there as well. Compare all of Cutlers stats last year when either of those two were being used consistently against the rest of the season. Keep in mind that Hillis didn't get over 10-12 rushes in any games at all until the Jets game. If you think we had other RB's on the roster who were playmakers in the redzone? Think again. Hillis tied Marshall for the lead in TD's with 6. Eddie Royal had 5 TD's and Pittman had 4. Those were the leading scorers from 08.

            Can Orton do as well this year? Sure he can if our defense is improved and McDaniels system really is as QB friendly as we keep hearing. Do I hope that he WILL be successful? Sure I do, as stated earlier I am a Broncos fan. Do I believe that he is as talented as Jay Cutler? Not even in my craziest dreams. If that were the case why would ANY team trade him AND two #1 drafts picks for Cutler? and thats leaving aside the 3rd round pick that we moved up for by giving them a 5th rounder as part of the package.

            Cutler was and will be a good QB in the NFL. ANY QB is only as good as the team surrounding him though. Even our very own John Elway had a very good defense in his early years, and a great running back and receivers in his later years. Take away that defense from the 80's and early 90's or take away TD from our team in the superbowl years and we would NOT have won the games we did. To debate whether Cutler is better or worse than Orton is foolish. They both bring different things to the table. Orton may very well be a better locker room presence and be able to handle the media much better than Jay ever did. I don't see him "WOWING" any of us with his physical skills on the field however. He may make all the throws we ask of him to make, but when the play is busted, and we need that crucial 1st down? I don't see him creating or improvising and taking risks to give it to us. I see him as one who would take the safe option and throw the ball away to conserve field position and wait till our next drive to try again. While this is smart football, and WILL win ballgames? It's not the kind of football the Broncos have been known for since 1983.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by oldster View Post
              You have an interesting way of interpreting things but let's go with your assumption. We win 2 more games and we are in the playoffs.
              Well, like I said, that doesn't prove he even lost a single game. BUT, if you are going to try that, I will just say this: With a better defense and run game we could have won 8 more games and been undefeated last year because we had one of the best passing games in the league.

              Originally posted by oldster View Post
              Jay's TD vs INT ratio in the red zone is less than stellar, Kyle's numbers were better, nothing more, nothing less. Chicago also rated higher on overall scoring efficiency in the red zone with Denver being ranked 16th and Chicago 12th. Coincidently Chicago was only in the red zone 5 less times than Denver all season.
              How does Chicago have a better efficiency if they were only there 5 less times but scored a ton less? I don't get it. What rating are you going off of for that?

              Originally posted by oldster View Post
              In fairness the majority of Jay's picks (13) were on our side of the field, 6 of which or 33% of total picks were inside our own 20. Not a good position to be putting a pitiful defense in, ya think?
              I would agree that it isn't a good position. In reality though, all turnovers are bad position. The only thing I was trying to say is he doesn't go down to the red zone and throw picks all the time like people are trying to say.

              Also, you are trying to compare Orton and Culter. Which is laughable. CHicago didn't ask Orton to do half of what Cutler was asked to do here. The only proof you need is in the pass attempts. Look at those and you have your answer to everything. If Orton was in Cutlers position last year and threw 600+ times from the worst field position in the league, I can almost guarantee he has 25+ interceptions, as would most QB's in this league. The 25+ number is being nice.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by jhns View Post
                How does Chicago have a better efficiency if they were only there 5 less times but scored a ton less? I don't get it. What rating are you going off of for that?


                Also, you are trying to compare Orton and Culter. Which is laughable. CHicago didn't ask Orton to do half of what Cutler was asked to do here. The only proof you need is in the pass attempts. Look at those and you have your answer to everything. If Orton was in Cutlers position last year and threw 600+ times from the worst field position in the league, I can almost guarantee he has 25+ interceptions, as would most QB's in this league. The 25+ number is being nice.
                Be glad I used the TD efficiency and not the scoring in the red zone. http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...finalredzn.htm

                Please provide a link documenting that Jay threw from the worst field position in the league. You cant guarantee anything since you have no idea what Kyle would have been capable of in last years Denver offense. You also seem to believe that Jay's number of attempts excuse him from everything. Guess what, regardless of attempts his percentage should be better than the "lesser" quarterbacks.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by oldster View Post
                  Be glad I used the TD efficiency and not the scoring in the red zone. http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...finalredzn.htm

                  Please provide a link documenting that Jay threw from the worst field position in the league. You cant guarantee anything since you have no idea what Kyle would have been capable of in last years Denver offense. You also seem to believe that Jay's number of attempts excuse him from everything. Guess what, regardless of attempts his percentage should be better than the "lesser" quarterbacks.
                  His INT percent is better than most QB's. I will show you some numbers, just give me about an hour to get home. I am finishing up some work now and don't have time.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by McKeough View Post

                    Now, Josh McDaniels doesn't have some 'magical' system that is going to turn Orton and our offense into something unstoppable. No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.

                    If it was as flawless as some of you make it sound with your predicted stats for Orton next season, EVERY team would be doing it.

                    Look at what that style of offense did with Tom Brady in it. Undefeated season and numerous records. A FRANCHISE quarterback.
                    People on the forum are brilliant, that's why they are so optimistic. In their minds McDaniels does have some secret, magical system that is unstoppable. McDaniels also has magical drafting powers and will pick amazing players in the draft. In their minds Orton will be awesome. In their minds Dawkins singlehandedly fixes the defense.

                    The reality, of course, is that McDaniels is in over his head. The reality is that the team is worse than it was 4 months ago.

                    The reality is that the Chargers will be great with LT and Meriman both healthy. The realty is that the Raiders are moving in the right direction under Cable. The reality is that its only a matter of time until Pioli builds a contender in KC. Meanwhile Denver has no defense and has to rebuild its offense. Good luck with that.

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                    • Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                      Still don't see the stat. Just a guess.
                      Then go crunch the numbers. It does not take a rocket scientist to glance at the scores and see we dropped off a lot. The first three games we averaged 38.0 points a game. After that we averaged 19.7. Under 20 points a game is a bad offense.

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                      • Originally posted by Stiffy View Post
                        People on the forum are brilliant, that's why they are so optimistic. In their minds McDaniels does have some secret, magical system that is unstoppable. McDaniels also has magical drafting powers and will pick amazing players in the draft. In their minds Orton will be awesome. In their minds Dawkins singlehandedly fixes the defense.

                        The reality, of course, is that McDaniels is in over his head. The reality is that the team is worse than it was 4 months ago.

                        The reality is that the Chargers will be great with LT and Meriman both healthy. The realty is that the Raiders are moving in the right direction under Cable. The reality is that its only a matter of time until Pioli builds a contender in KC. Meanwhile Denver has no defense and has to rebuild its offense. Good luck with that.
                        Wait...I know the D needs work, but why do we have to rebuild the offense?
                        "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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                        • Originally posted by Stiffy View Post
                          The reality is that the Chargers will be great with LT and Meriman both healthy. The realty is that the Raiders are moving in the right direction under Cable. The reality is that its only a matter of time until Pioli builds a contender in KC. Meanwhile Denver has no defense and has to rebuild its offense. Good luck with that.
                          LT is healthy? For how long? Many people think that he is done.

                          You have faith in the Chef organization, but not the Broncos? The reality is no new coach is a guaranteed success. Denver does have some offensive pieces in place, and a lot of draft picks. If things work out, we are a couple of years away from a good team.

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                          • <<
                            Look what that virtually identical offense did with Cassell at the helm? Stats that were far from jaw-dropping, missed the playoffs, and weren't spectacular.
                            >>

                            Cassell hadn't started a game since high school and played very little in both college and the NFL prior to Brady getting injured last year. You can't possibly consider where he was when Brady went down the equivalent of someone who started at the very least in college, or like Orton who has beenn a successful NFL starter.

                            When he did have chances in the preseason and prior years in the NFL Cassell was extremely rusty and not very good. Josh coached him up to a significantly higher level and won 11 games with him. For someone who hadn't started a game in years that is a hell of an accomplishment.

                            <<
                            No, this 'system' (a style of offense) worked because of the immense talent on that offense -- not because he's an offensive guru with some magical playbook that the rest of the NFL just doesn't know about.
                            >>

                            No, the system worked because a significant portion of that talent on the Pats comes from the fact they get players that have a high level of intelligence. The Pats players are all film hogs and study the opposing teams constantly, Brady as much or more than anyone else in the league. From all accounts Orton is a very hard worker and spends a lot of time studying film, while by all accounts Cutler does not.

                            Yes the Pats have players with a lot of natural talent and skill as well, but the driving force of the team is collective intelligence, hard work and knowledge of the opponent that lets them take the best advantage of their talent.

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                            • Originally posted by HarrisonHits View Post
                              <<
                              . From all accounts Orton is a very hard worker and spends a lot of time studying film, while by all accounts Cutler does not.
                              Do we know this? I remember stories after Jay was drafted about how hard he was working, and how much time he was spending with the coaches. Now the story seems to be the opposite.

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                              • Originally posted by Lilrush View Post
                                Then go crunch the numbers. It does not take a rocket scientist to glance at the scores and see we dropped off a lot. The first three games we averaged 38.0 points a game. After that we averaged 19.7. Under 20 points a game is a bad offense.
                                It's your argument, not mine. By glancing at the game scores, then you are lumping the defensive/ST scoring, or lack thereof, into your argument then blaming that on our offense. Any offense who has to score over 35 points a game to win is in serious trouble down the line. That much we now realize.

                                Do you seriously believe we had a bad offense? Is that what McD is telling you or did you even watch the games? I don't get why everyone is so down on our offense last year. They weren't perfect, but they're young and promising. Everyone talks like they were the pits.

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