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Do Bears fans know Kyle Orton? Jay Cutler?

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  • Do Bears fans know Kyle Orton? Jay Cutler?

    First off, this is not knocking Bears fans. I see them calling Kyle Orton like they see him. I don't have a problem with that. But, do they know what Kyle Orton can do? Or do they know what Kyle Orton can do with a bad O-line, bad receivers, bad coaching, and less-than-stellar run game. The reason I say bad coaching is because Lovie Smith is a very very conservative coach, especially offensively. Their offensive coaches are horrible. Can anyone name for me anyone that they have developed as a player offensively? Who is a mid-round pick that came in and has developed into anything? To me, that is a mark of a good coach. Can you take talent and develop them into something?

    I don't know that we know what we have in Kyle Orton. Here's what I want to watch for. Kyle Orton booming, while Jay Cutler busts. Remember when a Pro Bowl caliber Muhsin Muhammad went to Chicago? He dropped off of the map. Could the same thing happen to Jay Cutler?

  • #2
    This will just make the drama of the NFL all the more intriguing this year. I guess i better keep that Sunday Ticket subscription active.

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    • #3
      Some things that discredit this post.

      A) Musin had a 1400 yard season, and then went to a team headed by QB kyle orton and had a 700 yard season. As to whose fault is that you can decide.

      B) Marshall and Royal have caught pretty much every pass of their careers from Jay Cutler. How can you say Cutler didn't help make these guys who they are?

      I'm down with Orton, but you can't argue that Orton had a worse offense around him and Cutler had a better one when you talk about Orton being some great QB in disguise. Then discredit the fact that Orton had a great Defense and Cutler had nothing when you talk about wins and loses.
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      Champ Bailey in 2005
      30 times thrown at, 10 interceptions, 10 receptions, 10 incompletions

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
        First off, this is not knocking Bears fans. I see them calling Kyle Orton like they see him. I don't have a problem with that. But, do they know what Kyle Orton can do? Or do they know what Kyle Orton can do with a bad O-line, bad receivers, bad coaching, and less-than-stellar run game. The reason I say bad coaching is because Lovie Smith is a very very conservative coach, especially offensively. Their offensive coaches are horrible. Can anyone name for me anyone that they have developed as a player offensively? Who is a mid-round pick that came in and has developed into anything? To me, that is a mark of a good coach. Can you take talent and develop them into something?

        I don't know that we know what we have in Kyle Orton. Here's what I want to watch for. Kyle Orton booming, while Jay Cutler busts. Remember when a Pro Bowl caliber Muhsin Muhammad went to Chicago? He dropped off of the map. Could the same thing happen to Jay Cutler?
        Why ask the Bear Fans if they knew what they had in Orton....

        Ask yourself if we knew what we had in Cutler
        We are the Organization that " EVERYONE " wants to be a part of


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        • #5
          Originally posted by OrangeBlueCrew View Post
          Some things that discredit this post.

          A) Musin had a 1400 yard season, and then went to a team headed by QB kyle orton and had a 700 yard season. As to whose fault is that you can decide.

          B) Marshall and Royal have caught pretty much every pass of their careers from Jay Cutler. How can you say Cutler didn't help make these guys who they are?

          I'm down with Orton, but you can't argue that Orton had a worse offense around him and Cutler had a better one when you talk about Orton being some great QB in disguise. Then discredit the fact that Orton had a great Defense and Cutler had nothing when you talk about wins and loses.
          It's Funny that everyone loves Orton now but Why wasn't the Bears Phone ringing off the hook if Orton is so Great.

          The truth is we all have to find happiness in something and we are digging and hoping like hell we can salvage this Season.
          We are the Organization that " EVERYONE " wants to be a part of


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          • #6
            Sorry but last year they had Forte, and he was awesome.

            Also, with the exception of their first game against the Lions last year, everytime they started opening up the playbook for Orton, he started imploding, and that includes the game against ATL, where a receiver bailed him out with a circus catch. He almost lost them the game.

            Look at the Bears-Eagles game last year. Philly kept scoring, so the game had to be put on Orton, and he fumbled and INT'd his way through the rest of the game.

            I think he has the chance to be an average QB here, but he will never be a GREAT QB.
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            Hooray, beer!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
              Sorry but last year they had Forte, and he was awesome.

              Also, with the exception of their first game against the Lions last year, everytime they started opening up the playbook for Orton, he started imploding, and that includes the game against ATL, where a receiver bailed him out with a circus catch. He almost lost them the game.

              Look at the Bears-Eagles game last year. Philly kept scoring, so the game had to be put on Orton, and he fumbled and INT'd his way through the rest of the game.

              I think he has the chance to be an average QB here, but he will never be a GREAT QB.

              Nice Post...Said what you thought and gave Facts
              We are the Organization that " EVERYONE " wants to be a part of


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              • #8
                Originally posted by theflammer View Post
                Why ask the Bear Fans if they knew what they had in Orton....

                Ask yourself if we knew what we had in Cutler
                Good point. The Bears staff knew what they had in Orton, so they used him as trade fodder to get Cutler. We don't like talented qbs here anymore, we want nice guys.

                Not trying to bash Orton because I think he may do okay for us here. He definitely has more tools to work with and hopefully a coach that believes in him, but who knows with McD. He says he sees something in Orton, then tomorrow he may be gone... and we're gonna ride along with it.

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                • #9
                  You can't take a player off of a team and place him on another team and assume he's going to be the same. They're called "teams" for a reason. The people around you make you what you are. It's all speculation until the season starts. None of us know how Kyle Orton or Jay Cutler are going to look on their new teams. But, with the best offensive line in football and one of the best receiving corps I have faith that Kyle Orton can be a good quarterback.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OrangeBlueCrew View Post
                    Some things that discredit this post.

                    A) Musin had a 1400 yard season, and then went to a team headed by QB kyle orton and had a 700 yard season. As to whose fault is that you can decide.

                    B) Marshall and Royal have caught pretty much every pass of their careers from Jay Cutler. How can you say Cutler didn't help make these guys who they are?

                    I'm down with Orton, but you can't argue that Orton had a worse offense around him and Cutler had a better one when you talk about Orton being some great QB in disguise. Then discredit the fact that Orton had a great Defense and Cutler had nothing when you talk about wins and loses.
                    How does that discredit this post? If anything, Muhammad's numbers before Bears and after Bears back what I am saying up. Even when a rookie Kyle Orton wasn't in there, and Grossman was, it was the same results for Muhammad.

                    When did I mention anything about Cutler not helping make Marshall and Royal? I don't understand where you got that. My point is that the Bears offense is bad, their coaching is bad, and their O-line is bad. So how can you see what you have in any player when everything around them is bad?

                    The fact that Orton has a better offense around him, Cutler has a worse offense around him, worse coaching, and a worse line is exactly where I am coming from. Cutler may have a better defense, but he's also got a defensive minded coach that may shackle him after a few turnovers. That same defensive-minded coach shackled Orton as well. Orton said so himself. I'm not saying Orton is a great QB in disguise. I'm saying we don't know what he is yet. If you watch the Bears, you can pretty much call the plays before they happen because Ron Turner is so conservative and predictable.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
                      Sorry but last year they had Forte, and he was awesome.

                      Also, with the exception of their first game against the Lions last year, everytime they started opening up the playbook for Orton, he started imploding, and that includes the game against ATL, where a receiver bailed him out with a circus catch. He almost lost them the game.

                      Look at the Bears-Eagles game last year. Philly kept scoring, so the game had to be put on Orton, and he fumbled and INT'd his way through the rest of the game.

                      I think he has the chance to be an average QB here, but he will never be a GREAT QB.
                      Forte was a rookie last year who had all of his skills from the first rookie camp. It's not like they "developed" him. I agree that he is an awesome player with a lot of natural skill. As good as he is, Forte still averaged 3.9 yard per carry which needs to be credited to that O-line if you ask me.

                      When did I say Orton would be a great QB? I just said I don't think we know what we have in him yet. As far as what Orton will or won't be, we will see. I promise you he's never had receivers like Royal, Marshall, Stokely, and Sheffler.

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                      • #12
                        All I'm saying is your making the point that orton could be great in disguise. The fact that Muhammads yards got cut in half probably had a lot more to do with Orton than anything. The point about Royal and Marshall has to do with those guys were nobodys before Cutler. Marshall was a no name with Plummer his rookie year and then Jay started finding him. So the point I'm making is that I feel like Cutler could have had a terrible offense around him (as he had no running back and at least Orton had Forte) and he could have made it what is was. I'm sick of people reading into everything, especially the people that make this argument that (Orton's O was bad and Cutler's was great) when these are the same people that then say Wins and Loses are all that matters, but fail to acknowledge defense plays into these records. Orton is what he is. There is a reason Cutler was wanted by half the league, and Orton wasn't. Bottom line is hopefully he can manage games, put up some points while the D rebuilds, and then we'll win with the old adage defense wins championships. Until then, stop reading in to everything.
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                        Champ Bailey in 2005
                        30 times thrown at, 10 interceptions, 10 receptions, 10 incompletions

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One5 View Post
                          You can't take a player off of a team and place him on another team and assume he's going to be the same. They're called "teams" for a reason. The people around you make you what you are. It's all speculation until the season starts. None of us know how Kyle Orton or Jay Cutler are going to look on their new teams. But, with the best offensive line in football and one of the best receiving corps I have faith that Kyle Orton can be a good quarterback.
                          That's exactly my point.

                          All of the "realists" here seem to think that Cutler being on that team automatically means he's going to be a Pro Bowl 4,500 yard 25 TD or more and 18 INT QB. When you go from an offense with a lot of weapons to an offense without a lot of weapons, I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem very "realistic" to me at all.

                          The flip side is that when you go from an offense with nothing to an offense with a lot of weapons, it's realistic to think that a QB can thrive.

                          The system also plays a big part in it. Lovie Smith likes to say that the Bears get off the bus running the football. Why? Because he's a defensive-minded coach and 3 runs and a punt is a lot better to him than 1 pass and a turnover.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                            That's exactly my point.

                            All of the "realists" here seem to think that Cutler being on that team automatically means he's going to be a Pro Bowl 4,500 yard 25 TD or more and 18 INT QB. When you go from an offense with a lot of weapons to an offense without a lot of weapons, I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem very "realistic" to me at all.

                            The flip side is that when you go from an offense with nothing to an offense with a lot of weapons, it's realistic to think that a QB can thrive.

                            The system also plays a big part in it. Lovie Smith likes to say that the Bears get off the bus running the football. Why? Because he's a defensive-minded coach and 3 runs and a punt is a lot better to him than 1 pass and a turnover.
                            This goes right back to my point that you don't know if Cutler made Royal and Marshall who they were. If you're making this point, then you also have to acknowledge that Cutler could go make Devin Hester a 1500 yard reciever.
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                            Champ Bailey in 2005
                            30 times thrown at, 10 interceptions, 10 receptions, 10 incompletions

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OrangeBlueCrew View Post
                              All I'm saying is your making the point that orton could be great in disguise. The fact that Muhammads yards got cut in half probably had a lot more to do with Orton than anything. The point about Royal and Marshall has to do with those guys were nobodys before Cutler. Marshall was a no name with Plummer his rookie year and then Jay started finding him. So the point I'm making is that I feel like Cutler could have had a terrible offense around him (as he had no running back and at least Orton had Forte) and he could have made it what is was. I'm sick of people reading into everything, especially the people that make this argument that (Orton's O was bad and Cutler's was great) when these are the same people that then say Wins and Loses are all that matters, but fail to acknowledge defense plays into these records. Orton is what he is. There is a reason Cutler was wanted by half the league, and Orton wasn't. Bottom line is hopefully he can manage games, put up some points while the D rebuilds, and then we'll win with the old adage defense wins championships. Until then, stop reading in to everything.
                              I get tired of people saying chicagos run game was better than ours. They had one really good running back and we had 7 decent running backs. We also averaged more ypc than they did and ranked #12 in the nfl. Not too bad for an offense that was pass first and run second. In fact we were pass first, pass second then run third. Stop using the excuse we had no run game. The only reason we had no run game was because shanahan decided to throw the ball 80% of the time.

                              As for Cutler making those receivers looking good. You can argue they made him look good too. I can remember 2-3 of the royal TD catches where he mad circus like catches and bailed Cutler out so it swings both ways.

                              I don't think Orton will be some amazing qb but he could be a better than average qb. Who knows maybe he could be amazing but I wouldn't count on it until we see it. Look at drew brees. He was a decent qb in SD then left and is now an amazing qb in NO. They both came out of the same college and if drafted in the same year without anyone knowing what they can do in the nfl most would take orton > brees. So we know he has talent.

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