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  • #76
    Originally posted by JaysusCutler View Post
    He threw 2 touchdowns and 4 interceptions over that span. I really liked Cutler, but he killed us almost as much as he helped us.
    And ran for 2 TD's, AND was trying to keep up with the 35 a game the defense gave up, while using a cell phone salesman as a RB.

    Comment


    • #77
      So, if our offense is going to be horrible with Orton, why were the scoring numbers to close? Looking at high-level numbers...

      Denver - 25 pass TD's, 15 Rush TD's, 25 FG's, Sacked 12 times
      Chicago - 20 pass TD's, 15 Rush TD's, 26 FG's, Sacked 29 times

      Why is Cutler the god of god's and Orton the skum of the earth? Cutlers potential is way beyond Orton, but I don't see a huge drop-off in our offensive production coming...

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by DBroncs04 View Post
        So, if our offense is going to be horrible with Orton, why were the scoring numbers to close? Looking at high-level numbers...

        Denver - 25 pass TD's, 15 Rush TD's, 25 FG's, Sacked 12 times
        Chicago - 20 pass TD's, 15 Rush TD's, 26 FG's, Sacked 29 times

        Why is Cutler the god of god's and Orton the skum of the earth? Cutlers potential is way beyond Orton, but I don't see a huge drop-off in our offensive production coming...
        Lets start with the fact that the FG's are not Cutlers fault. Our FG kicked missed a lot last season. Maybe Chicagos did as well and this rant means nothing. But seriously, Cutler put us in position for a lot more FG's than we had. Toward the end of the season we started going for it on some 4th downs because they didn't trust the FG kicker.

        Aside from that, check the field position. We drove the furthest per drive out of any offense in the league. Do you really think Chicago would have scored even as much as they did if they had to go a lot further every time?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by jhns View Post
          Lets start with the fact that the FG's are not Cutlers fault. Our FG kicked missed a lot last season. Maybe Chicagos did as well and this rant means nothing. But seriously, Cutler put us in position for a lot more FG's than we had. Toward the end of the season we started going for it on some 4th downs because they didn't trust the FG kicker.

          Aside from that, check the field position. We drove the furthest per drive out of any offense in the league. Do you really think Chicago would have scored even as much as they did if they had to go a lot further every time?
          We could go back and forth all day with our sides... meaning I could then say "check Chicago's receivers and oline, did they have anything servicable? How much did Orton's injury effect his game? How much did Lovie's conservative run-first approach limit the offense?"

          I am NOT saying Orton is or will ever be comparable to Cutler, I'm saying our offense will be fine this year without Cutler.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by DBroncs04 View Post
            I am NOT saying Orton is or will ever be comparable to Cutler, I'm saying our offense will be fine this year without Cutler.
            And I'm saying it would have been a lot better with Cutler.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by jhns View Post
              And I'm saying it would have been a lot better with Cutler.
              we can both agree there

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post
                Instead of trying to comprehend someone having a different opinion from you, and disagreeing with that opinion, you would rather judge me as not being able to accept your view as truth.

                I can accept lots of things in life but not someone trying to tell me how to think.

                We read the situation differently. I think the new coach mishandled the situation with Jay Cutler; you don't. I don't tell you to "get over" your contrary opinion any more than I accept yours as gospel.

                People have differing views on this situation. Accept it, don't belittle them.
                Here's the thing. I previously held the same sentiments you now feel so strongly about. This was weeks ago when I felt that way, however. Since then things have played themselves out, I've re-evaluated the situation and I'VE gotten over it. The fact that you are still holding onto the notion that McDaniels was sooo dishonest and, for that, he is completely to blame for everything at this point in the game is incredible.

                please, as the previous poster suggested, show me where/what McDaniels did to have leave you so passionate about your position?
                Last edited by donkeyDookie; 04-16-2009, 11:29 AM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by donkeyDookie View Post
                  Here's the thing. I previously held the same sentiments you now feel so strongly about. This was weeks ago when I felt that way, however. Since then things have played themselves out, I've re-evaluated the situation and I'VE gotten over it. The fact that you are still holding onto the notion that McDaniels was sooo dishonest and, for that, he is completely to blame for everything at this point in the game is incredible.

                  please, as the previous poster suggested, show me where/what McDaniels did to have leave you so passionate about your position?
                  I don't believe that the new coach was completely responsible for everything.

                  I will explain my position in part below and ask that you respect my good faith in doing so.

                  My opinion is that the new coach is inexperienced at this level. Because of that inexperience, he made a number of errors in his handling of Cutler. In his communications with Cutler, he failed to convince him that he would support him. Who knows what went on with Jeremy Bates. Who knows what happened between the two.

                  You are correct that teams get offers of trades all the time. Usually, such trade offers never see the light of day. Cutler's did. Why? I think inexperience at the Denver end was responsible for that. You had two rookies dealing with the situation. Nothing like that ever emerges in Baltimore, with an experienced GM and a coach who knows his limitations.

                  When things began to unravel, I looked at both of their reactions. Sure, Cutler was immature. He was unhappy. He felt that the new coach had not supported him and also felt that the new coach was not being honest with him. Given the good relationship he had with his prior coordinator, he wondered what would happen with his future in Denver. I also think that he risked serious harm in fighting through undiagnosed and now diagnosed diabetes. I give a lot of credit to people when they overcome obstacles in their lives. I think Cutler was courageous when he took to the football field and I also think he was courageous in standing up for himself in this situation.

                  They talked by phone and then they met. Neither meeting went well.

                  The impression I have from viewing Cutler after those meetings was that he felt that the new coach was being neither conciliatory, nor honest with him. An athlete's life is short and a quarterback's career can vanish in the twisting of a leg. I can understand a quarterback with options not wanting to play where he felt he was not wanted and was a remnant of the old regime.

                  Now, turn to the press conferences after the events, you have a Cutler freely admitting that he was part of the problem in the matter not working out. He dressed properly for the press conference and was courteous to everyone.

                  Turn to the new coach, he did "the player" thing, a poor imitation of what older, experienced coaches named Bill out of military academies might be able to pull off, but from him it looked silly.

                  He also looked evasive, both at the NFL meetings and at the press conference, when discussing the events that had occurred and accepted no blame for the situation falling apart.

                  He also wore the hoodie thing in his press conference. I find that childish in that the new coach should realize that Denver fans are sensitive to New England West being established in Denver and this was rubbing peoples faces in it. You dress for the part. On his own staff, he has Mike Nolan who knows how to dress so you look the part of a leader.

                  A number of former players and commentators, including Shannon Sharpe, agree in essence that the Broncos had a role in this situation blowing up. As you know, Denver reporters were mixed on it.

                  In my job, I deal with complex human interactions and seldom does a bad situation emerge from the fault of only one party. When people don't admit some responsibility in a bad situation, I am very wary. No human is perfect and we all pick up vibes and draw conclusions about others because you have learned from experience about how certain things often play out.

                  These are a few of the reasons why I don't think the new coach was ready for the job and lacks maturity. I contrast him with John Harbaugh and Mike Smith and I think they have a lot more maturity and public presence.

                  I could be completely wrong about the new coach; I hope I am. I have been a Bronco fan from day 1 and went to their first training camp at the Colorado School of Mines. I want them to win; I also want to like the people who represent the franchise.

                  People sometimes grow from events and I hope, like Patrick Bowlen, that this is a win/win for both Cutler and the Broncos.

                  You have asked me to explain my feelings, inferences and opinions on this matter and I have given you some of them. I hope we don't see a ripping apart of my logic point-by-point because we could argue this scenario forever and none of us really know all of the facts. But, in life you have to make certain judgments.

                  I do feel strongly about this situation, and am not happy as a fan as to what has gone on. I have expressed my opinion and why I hold it. Now, we all have to move on and let things play out. The draft should be fun and I will eagerly watch a number of teams next season, including the Broncos, the Bears and the Ravens. I hope Denver does well and this is all soon forgotten.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by owninit View Post

                    Yes good bosses have their workers interests at hand when dealing for and with them, but the chain of command doesn't work when the prisoners run the asylum.

                    And good coaches have their players best interests at hand when dealing with them. The difference is that the Denver Broncos is NOT a prison and using your business analogy, Jay Cutler is a valued commodity, obviously not by you or McD, but to many other coaches and GM's in the league with far more experience and better resumes to boot.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Old Hockey Guy View Post
                      I don't believe that the new coach was completely responsible for everything.

                      I will explain my position in part below and ask that you respect my good faith in doing so.

                      My opinion is that the new coach is inexperienced at this level. Because of that inexperience, he made a number of errors in his handling of Cutler. In his communications with Cutler, he failed to convince him that he would support him. Who knows what went on with Jeremy Bates. Who knows what happened between the two.

                      You are correct that teams get offers of trades all the time. Usually, such trade offers never see the light of day. Cutler's did. Why? I think inexperience at the Denver end was responsible for that. You had two rookies dealing with the situation. Nothing like that ever emerges in Baltimore, with an experienced GM and a coach who knows his limitations.

                      When things began to unravel, I looked at both of their reactions. Sure, Cutler was immature. He was unhappy. He felt that the new coach had not supported him and also felt that the new coach was not being honest with him. Given the good relationship he had with his prior coordinator, he wondered what would happen with his future in Denver. I also think that he risked serious harm in fighting through undiagnosed and now diagnosed diabetes. I give a lot of credit to people when they overcome obstacles in their lives. I think Cutler was courageous when he took to the football field and I also think he was courageous in standing up for himself in this situation.

                      They talked by phone and then they met. Neither meeting went well.

                      The impression I have from viewing Cutler after those meetings was that he felt that the new coach was being neither conciliatory, nor honest with him. An athlete's life is short and a quarterback's career can vanish in the twisting of a leg. I can understand a quarterback with options not wanting to play where he felt he was not wanted and was a remnant of the old regime.

                      Now, turn to the press conferences after the events, you have a Cutler freely admitting that he was part of the problem in the matter not working out. He dressed properly for the press conference and was courteous to everyone.

                      Turn to the new coach, he did "the player" thing, a poor imitation of what older, experienced coaches named Bill out of military academies might be able to pull off, but from him it looked silly.

                      He also looked evasive, both at the NFL meetings and at the press conference, when discussing the events that had occurred and accepted no blame for the situation falling apart.

                      He also wore the hoodie thing in his press conference. I find that childish in that the new coach should realize that Denver fans are sensitive to New England West being established in Denver and this was rubbing peoples faces in it. You dress for the part. On his own staff, he has Mike Nolan who knows how to dress so you look the part of a leader.

                      A number of former players and commentators, including Shannon Sharpe, agree in essence that the Broncos had a role in this situation blowing up. As you know, Denver reporters were mixed on it.

                      In my job, I deal with complex human interactions and seldom does a bad situation emerge from the fault of only one party. When people don't admit some responsibility in a bad situation, I am very wary. No human is perfect and we all pick up vibes and draw conclusions about others because you have learned from experience about how certain things often play out.

                      These are a few of the reasons why I don't think the new coach was ready for the job and lacks maturity. I contrast him with John Harbaugh and Mike Smith and I think they have a lot more maturity and public presence.

                      I could be completely wrong about the new coach; I hope I am. I have been a Bronco fan from day 1 and went to their first training camp at the Colorado School of Mines. I want them to win; I also want to like the people who represent the franchise.

                      People sometimes grow from events and I hope, like Patrick Bowlen, that this is a win/win for both Cutler and the Broncos.

                      You have asked me to explain my feelings, inferences and opinions on this matter and I have given you some of them. I hope we don't see a ripping apart of my logic point-by-point because we could argue this scenario forever and none of us really know all of the facts. But, in life you have to make certain judgments.

                      I do feel strongly about this situation, and am not happy as a fan as to what has gone on. I have expressed my opinion and why I hold it. Now, we all have to move on and let things play out. The draft should be fun and I will eagerly watch a number of teams next season, including the Broncos, the Bears and the Ravens. I hope Denver does well and this is all soon forgotten.

                      I appreciate you expanding, and yes i can see your opinion, our two very differing opinions veer at the very beginning and premonition of this entire event. They are............

                      You believe that a mature experienced coach would have never tried to trade Jay cutler. I believe that wanting to trade Jay Cutler was a direct result of knowing what he needs to run his offense, knowing what kind of worker he needs, and trying to do the best for the team. Was it the right vision or not, only time will tell, but it by no means is an immature decision in my mind, but will agree to disagree.

                      So cutler and Bates were good friends and bates LEFT after it was announced that McDaniels would be calling the plays. Bates leaving and McDaniels wanting to call the plays, as he did for a VERY prolific offense, isn't obsurd. It is a sign of commitment, that he believes in what he is doing. Yet again I don't think this points to immaturity or inexperience. It points to a singularly focused individual, who is making the tough decisions.

                      The hoody thing i don't even come close to agreeing, Nolan looks far more out of place in a suit at a work out facility "dove valley" than McD does in a hoody. The broco nation being sensitive to becoming Patriot West is ridiculous, everyone hates the patriots because they win. Bring us 4 SB trophies in 6 years and you can wear a hula skirt if you want.

                      McDaniels may be 32 years old, but he has worked for the Patriots for SEVEN years, he didn't flash around in college for 4 years and then be offensive coordinator for 2 years. Spagnolo was an assistant for 8 years and then a DC for 2, and never even drafted an defensive player that is playing, all of his Pro Bowlers were drafted before he got there. Raheem morris the new coach for TB was an assistant for 2 years, with the Bucs for a total of 3 years and is now the HC. Tomlin was a DC for 2 years, and an assistant for 5 years before becoming Pitts head coach. McDaniels again was an assistant for 4 years, called the plays, but didn't have the title in 05, and has been OC for 3 years for the most prolific offense over the last three years. 4 years as OC, is twice the time of any of these others, and then did it again this year with a career back up QB in cassle. He has every bit as much experience as people who are far OLDER than he is, i don't agree that he is immature and doing things incorrectly. If anything i have been VERY impressed with how mature he is for being 32. I am 31 and don't want to be in front of those camera's. I think he was tutored by one of the best coaches of the new era, like him or not it's hard to argue with Belicheck's success.

                      I to feel strongly about this, and wasn’t trying to pick apart everyone of you points. I will concede to a mutual disagreement. I am very young for what I do, and am in meetings every day being younger by 10 years than those around me. I get the shoulder for a while, but people realize that I know what I am doing and respect me for my work. I have a resume that is as deep as the people far older than me, I just started younger and haven’t jumped around careers. It takes a lot of confidence to surround yourself with the best and not fear for your job, he has done that. It takes confidence to make the changes, even if they are unpopular, if you believe that’s what needs done, he has done that. It takes confidence to install a brand new system to people that are only 2-3 years younger than you, and make them buy into it, and he is doing that. Confidence comes with maturity and realized success, so by definition I don’t see him as being immature. He is either very intelligent or crazy, and there is not one person in the NFL, including his mentor Belicheck that has ever alluded to anything less than a prodigy, so give him time to at least take the field.

                      :2cents:
                      Last edited by owninit; 04-17-2009, 10:24 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
                        And good coaches have their players best interests at hand when dealing with them. The difference is that the Denver Broncos is NOT a prison and using your business analogy, Jay Cutler is a valued commodity, obviously not by you or McD, but to many other coaches and GM's in the league with far more experience and better resumes to boot.
                        Shallow minds take literal meaning to an anology, but thanks for playing.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Age v. Youth

                          @owninit

                          I don't have time today to respond in detail to your post, but I thank you for articulating it.

                          You may have hit on our differences. You are young and think that a breath of fresh air and competence will overcome inexperience; I am older and have seen far too many hot dogs come and go who think they know everything and as a result make or repeat mistakes that others with more experience and humility would not have made.

                          The fun part here is that we get to watch it play out and it does not affect anything but the win/loss record of the team and bragging rights. We both will remain Bronco fans no matter what happens. Cutler is gone; I will follow him as well as the Broncos. The new coach, who I may eventually call Coach McDaniels if he starts calling players by their names, has made his own nest and he will probably have a 2 year honeymoon to sit in it no matter how his leadership goes. The last thing Bowlen wants is to be paying 3 head coaching salaries simultaneously.

                          I look forward to a fun draft, the good news of the current situation is that we have a more exciting Draft day than one has picking towards the end of the round. Of course, we would all much rather have a fun day at the end of January.

                          Training camp can't come soon enough after the draft.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by 80stheman View Post
                            At least Shanahan was always honest with the players.
                            You might want to get Shannon Sharps opinion on that.....

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jhns View Post
                              And I'm saying it would have been a lot better with Cutler.
                              The thing is that nobody knows that. We can speculate all we want, but nobody knows how our offense will be until they see it on the field. If you, or anyone else for that matter, knows who will perform better this year (and it's only April, then you should get a job on a sports network instead of posting on a message board. Orton could suck, he could be great, he could be average. Cutler could suck, he could be great, he could be average. Why is everyone already claiming that they know the facts? If that's the case then why even bother watching the season, since some of you clearly know how it's going to go.
                              Posted by DrunkPanda immediately after Denver took Knowshon Moreno with the 12th pick in the 1st round

                              "obviously [email protected] is very confused. he tihnks he is still the offensive coordinator, not the headcoach. he will probably draft offense with the rest of his picks, forgetting that defensive positions even exist in football"

                              Let's see how this hilarious prediction unfolds is as the draft continues.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by joshunderwood View Post
                                The thing is that nobody knows that. We can speculate all we want, but nobody knows how our offense will be until they see it on the field. If you, or anyone else for that matter, knows who will perform better this year (and it's only April, then you should get a job on a sports network instead of posting on a message board. Orton could suck, he could be great, he could be average. Cutler could suck, he could be great, he could be average. Why is everyone already claiming that they know the facts? If that's the case then why even bother watching the season, since some of you clearly know how it's going to go.
                                I don't claim to know how the season is going to go. I do know that it would have gone better with Cutler. If we go 18-1, we would have been 19-0 with Cutler. It is just the facts. Sorry if you can't handle them.

                                Also, I would get a job as an analyst but I am right most of the time. They don't want people that are right even a fraction of the time because it wouldn't create as much controversy and uproar when they say stuff. In other words, I'm to smart to be an analyst. I am just sorting through all the NFL GM offers I have gotten lately, I think I will decide on which team I want to run soon. We can't rush these things though.

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