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  • #61
    Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
    Why should we expect them to treat it any differently than a job.
    I'm not saying they should. In fact they should treat it like a job. When I came out of college, I got offered a job starting off making 24k a year. They come out of college and the league minimum is over ten times that amount.

    I'm not at all saying they should not treat it like a job. I'm saying they have a fantastic first job in life. I don't feel bad for them if when it's over, they've pissed it away.

    I think your expectation of not tying their financial stability to their careers is a bit unfair.
    I made my life work - and work well - starting off at 24k a year. Make that 240k a year as a minimum, and let me tell you where I'd be right now. It's not my fault if they make bad choices. It's not anyone's fault but their own.

    Not referring to you Alastor, but why are people comparing their lives to these guys.
    We're not comparing our lives to these guys. Like I said, I never had the opportunity they did. I'm not saying life in the NFL is a bed of roses - but then again I don't see the guys that do have good degrees and that are very capable saying, "No thanks, I don't want to enter the draft. The professional world is a far better value for me."

    They don't do that. Know why? Because it isn't true.

    Every single one of you has had the opportunity to get a job in the NFL and work hard to get there. Just because you chose another path doesn't mean these guys should be judged differently.
    Not entirely true. I was fast - really fast. I can jump really high too. At the end of the day I'm 35 years old now - and 5'11", and weigh about 135. I'm pretty thin. Always was. I simply can't put weight on. I'd like to think otherwise, but I suspect that no matter how hard most of us work, we couldn't play in the NFL. But that's another story.

    We're not begrudging those that can, however. That's not what I'm saying at all and I think you're misunderstanding my point.

    I don't begrudge NFL players. I'm happy for them. They do work hard and they bring a great deal of joy to my life. In exchange they get paid a lot of money. They do. That's a fact.

    If they set themselves up such that their entire life is dependent upon the outcome of a given game, then that's their fault and no one else's.

    When I came out of college, I wanted to be the owner of my own company - and I did that. I worked full time at my 24k a year job and I started my own company. We did fairly well. In the end though, my priorities changed and I wanted more time for myself and my family. I eventually closed the doors on my business.

    It didn't work out the way I planned - but my life didn't end, because I went into it knowing that this may not work out (95% of businesses go bankrupt in the first five years), and I planned accordingly.

    So should they.

    They start off way ahead of the game when they come to the NFL. If when their ride is over they have nothing left to build on, then it's because they chose to let that happen and actively made that happen.

    That is not our fault.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Alastor View Post
      I'm not saying they should. In fact they should treat it like a job. When I came out of college, I got offered a job starting off making 24k a year. They come out of college and the league minimum is over ten times that amount.

      I'm not at all saying they should not treat it like a job. I'm saying they have a fantastic first job in life. I don't feel bad for them when if it's over, they've pissed it away.



      I made my life work - and work well - starting off at 24k a year. Make that 240k a year as a minimum, and let me tell you where I'd be right now. It's not my fault if they make bad choices. It's not anyone's fault but their own.



      We're not comparing our lives to these guys. Like I said, I never had the opportunity they did. I'm not saying life in the NFL is a bed of roses - but then again I don't see the guys that do have good degrees and that are very capable saying, "No thanks, I don't want to enter the draft. The professional world is a far better value for me."

      They don't do that. Know why? Because it isn't true.

      Not entirely true. I was fast - really fast. I can jump really high too. At the end of the day I'm 35 years old now - and 5'11", and weigh about 135. I'm pretty thin. Always was. I simply can't put weight on. I'd like to think otherwise, but I suspect that no matter how hard most of us work, we couldn't play in the NFL. But that's another story.

      We're not begrudging those that can, however. That's not what I'm saying at all and I think you're misunderstanding my point.

      I don't begrudge NFL players. I'm happy for them. They do work hard and they bring a great deal of joy to my life. In exchange they get paid a lot of money. They do. That's a fact.

      If they set themselves up such that their entire life is dependent upon the outcome of a given game, then that's their fault and no one else's.

      When I came out of college, I wanted to be the owner of my own company - and I did that. I worked full time at my 24k a year job and I started my own company. We did fairly well. In the end though, my priorities changed and I wanted more time for myself and my family. I eventually closed the doors on my business.

      It didn't work out the way I planned - but my life didn't end, because I went into it knowing that this may not work out (95% of businesses go bankrupt in the first five years), and I planned accordingly.

      So should they.

      They start off way ahead of the game when they come to the NFL. If when their ride is over they have nothing left to build on, then it's because they chose to let that happen and actively made that happen.

      That is not our fault.
      Oh... I get what you were saying now. Thanks for the explanation. I misunderstood a little.

      I do agree with you. Players need to plan for that fact that their careers may end the next day. For sure... I think that's another reason why they have to get while the gettin's good. It's about timing again... referring to my post earlier.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Alastor View Post
        They start off way ahead of the game when they come to the NFL. If when their ride is over they have nothing left to build on, then it's because they chose to let that happen and actively made that happen.
        Thats very judgemental. It would be interesting to see how you would have turned out if you would have been raise in a fatherless family with a mother strung out on coke. if getting an education was shunned by your peers as acting white. If your schools were plagued with inexperienced teachers and violence.

        Im not picking on you. I could see how my life would be very different if I didnt have the blessing I had growing up (and I come from a divorced family)

        Its easy to judge....its hard to understand.
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        • #64
          Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
          Thats very judgemental. It would be interesting to see how you would have turned out if you would have been raise in a fatherless family with a mother strung out on coke. if getting an education was shunned by your peers as acting white. If your schools were plagued with inexperienced teachers and violence.
          Speaking of judgmental.

          You really don't know anything about my childhood, and it would probably surprise you if you did.

          Let's not make this personal, though.

          At the end of the day, we are responsible for our own outcomes in life. These players have college degrees which in most cases they got for free. Their first job in life starts off paying them $310,000 a year as a minimum.

          From there, anything can happen - just like the rest of us.

          Their life is their own, their choices are their own, and their outcomes are their own.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Alastor View Post

            Not entirely true. I was fast - really fast. I can jump really high too. At the end of the day I'm 35 years old now - and 5'11", and weigh about 135. I'm pretty thin. Always was. I simply can't put weight on. I'd like to think otherwise, but I suspect that no matter how hard most of us work, we couldn't play in the NFL. But that's another story.
            Didn't think of place kicking? or coaching? Doesn't mean you didn't have the opportunity. Most coaches start out because they couldn't play so well.

            You want to gain weight? You should come here where I live, where feeding people means you love them... you'd gain some weight.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by acpell671 View Post
              Didn't think of place kicking?
              Sure did. I sucked.

              or coaching?
              No. I didn't even realize that was an option.

              Doesn't mean you didn't have the opportunity. Most coaches start out because they couldn't play so well.
              Not really. Most coaches are former players.

              You want to gain weight? You should come here where I live, where feeding people means you love them... you'd gain some weight.
              Uh... yeah... I eat an unbelievable amount. That's not the issue. Even in the military when I worked out twice a day and took in 3 times the daily allotment of calories, could dive 50 meters and hold my breath for two minutes, could hike 10+ miles with my body weight and then some on my back...

              All this while I was working with a very good personal trainer and dietitian as well.

              The most I ever weighed was 150, and even then we had to fudge a little (there was a minimum weight for my career field).

              Some people are naturally born fat, and there's not a lot they can do about it. It's not as common as some make it out to be, but it does happen.

              Conversely, some people simply cannot gain weight. I'm one of those.

              That's really a tangent though. I love what I do and I wouldn't trade my job for the world. I gave up a pretty lucrative career so I could go teach high school after all. I really do love what I do.

              That's still an aside - NFL players love what they do too. They do in fact, make a lot of money and have as many opportunities as the rest of us, if not more, to do things after football is over.

              Life does not end when one can no longer play football. Being in the NFL though, does offer a tremendous head-start to the financial challenges one will face in life. They can seize that opportunity, or they can choose not to.

              That's their choice. But that's my point - it's their choice.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                Speaking of judgmental.

                You really don't know anything about my childhood, and it would probably surprise you if you did.

                [/I].
                touche' However, it is obvious that you were well educated.
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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
                  touche' However, it is obvious that you were well educated.
                  For the record, no, I was not.

                  I was kicked out of three high schools (Ponderosa, Evergreen, and Lakewood). I dropped out of a fourth - which was an alternative school to begin with.

                  When my dad (whom I hadn't seen since I was three) died I decide to grow up. I finally got myself off probation (for the first time since I was 13), and got my GED because I passed the test. The day after I got my GED, I applied my credits for it towards my diploma, passed three more tests to get my final credits and got my actual high school diploma.

                  12 hours later I arrived at Lackland Air Force Base and prepared myself for entry into Operation Desert Storm.

                  But no.

                  I was not well-educated at that stage of my life. Not remotely. What I was, was determined, focused, and disciplined. I'm stubborn beyond belief.

                  Like I said - my past would probably shock the Hell out of you. I did not have as many opportunities as some people do. What I did, is work my ass off.

                  I make no excuses for myself. Nor do I accept them from NFL players that only make 300k a year at their first ever entry level position.

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                  • #69
                    It's all about perception. In reality, it is stupid, but loyalty in the NFL is non-existant but FO's expect it to be one-sided. As a player, you are supposed to be loyal as long as your name is signed on the dotted line, unless it's inconvenient for them (due to salary, team needs, etc). It's rare to see a team stand behind a guy in times of strife, but it's expected that the same guy stand behind the team when they are in need. That is why you see only a rare few franchises now a days that are consistently great year in and year out. Most go through cycles, mostly based on luck. Luck that they have few injuries, and luck that they have the right mix of talent all at a given time.

                    Pittsburgh is a team that as a Broncos fan I hate, but I have the utmost respect for the Front Office and Organization in general, because more often than not, they have much more loyalty to their players than most franchises. They tend to stick with players going through bad streaks or legal/personal issues longer than most teams, instead of some teams that are quick to drop a guy like a bad habit if he shows any sign of a problem or difficulty in producing on the field. That is why they have gone deep into the playoffs more than nearly any other team in the NFL over the last decade or so, even though it's only amounted in two SBs.

                    It's easy to just say "well they are getting paid huge sums, so why does the team need to feel like they owe the players any loyalty" but in reality, you cultivate better relationships with the players as an organization if you show you care more than just the money. Yes, they get paid huge amounts, but guys tend to be more likely to take pay cuts to stick around for organizations that they know always have their back, and they are more likely to go that extra mile if they know that the organization would do the same for them.

                    So far, I don't get that vibe with the current FO for Denver. Now, it's a fairly new staff, so of course that sort of mentality doesn't create itself overnight. Other than a few position coaches, about the only holdover is Bowlen. We probably won't know the way this FO will cultivate relationships with players for a few years. The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes, but so far I am skeptical with the present evidence at hand.
                    Fire Rick Dennison - This Signature will stay until the worst playcaller in the NFL is gone.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by floridabroncos View Post
                      It's all about perception. In reality, it is stupid, but loyalty in the NFL is non-existant but FO's expect it to be one-sided. As a player, you are supposed to be loyal as long as your name is signed on the dotted line, unless it's inconvenient for them (due to salary, team needs, etc). It's rare to see a team stand behind a guy in times of strife, but it's expected that the same guy stand behind the team when they are in need. That is why you see only a rare few franchises now a days that are consistently great year in and year out. Most go through cycles, mostly based on luck. Luck that they have few injuries, and luck that they have the right mix of talent all at a given time.

                      Pittsburgh is a team that as a Broncos fan I hate, but I have the utmost respect for the Front Office and Organization in general, because more often than not, they have much more loyalty to their players than most franchises. They tend to stick with players going through bad streaks or legal/personal issues longer than most teams, instead of some teams that are quick to drop a guy like a bad habit if he shows any sign of a problem or difficulty in producing on the field. That is why they have gone deep into the playoffs more than nearly any other team in the NFL over the last decade or so, even though it's only amounted in two SBs.

                      It's easy to just say "well they are getting paid huge sums, so why does the team need to feel like they owe the players any loyalty" but in reality, you cultivate better relationships with the players as an organization if you show you care more than just the money. Yes, they get paid huge amounts, but guys tend to be more likely to take pay cuts to stick around for organizations that they know always have their back, and they are more likely to go that extra mile if they know that the organization would do the same for them.

                      So far, I don't get that vibe with the current FO for Denver. Now, it's a fairly new staff, so of course that sort of mentality doesn't create itself overnight. Other than a few position coaches, about the only holdover is Bowlen. We probably won't know the way this FO will cultivate relationships with players for a few years. The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes, but so far I am skeptical with the present evidence at hand.
                      I completely agree with this. Great Post!

                      It's the same for any company. A company that rewards it's employees, has good perks, treats their employees well, tends to attract and KEEP good people. In short, they value their most important asset.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
                        that's easy to say without walking a mile in their shoes. In college, I got a chance to meet players who grew up in total poverty. When I was in east LA, one guy took me home to meet his folks in compton. I was scared absoultey sh**less just from the drive.

                        These guys grow up and our never held accountable their whole lives. people help them cheat on tests (often teachers and coaches) many of them get to college and cant read on a 3rd grade level because of it.

                        You expect them to graduate?

                        Im all for personal responsibility...but I am not for judging others, especially without really understanding the life they have lived.
                        That's my point, there are always the stand out athletes who care about their education but they are becoming a lot less common because of the environment this kids are being raised in. They get their hand held by coaches and colleges, who give them easy majors and have their work done for them because they want their undivided focus on football. Of course there will be some who rise to the top and take their education seriously, but my point is that this current environment does not encourage athletes to pursue a education.

                        I guess it's a nature vs nurture argument. I believe that the environment you grow up in has a big impact on how you turn out. I understand where your coming from Alastor, but there is a reason that kids who come from wealthy families (ie: myself) tend to become more successful in life then kids from poor families.

                        It's awesome that you were able to overcome your difficulties and do something with your life (Your posts are usually interesting and well written) . However, wouldn't it be great if we could change the environment these players go through in order to get more kids the opportunity to succeed?
                        Last edited by MJA; 06-18-2009, 10:17 AM.
                        http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=30412676
                        MMO Football Game

                        I like McDaniels, he will be a good coach. Just not for this team. Belichick needed his Cleveland stint to become the coach he is now and McDaniels is showing the same signs.

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                        • #72
                          Also wanted to add, I feel really conflicted on the personal responsibility issue. I tend to be viewed as a very individualistic person who takes responsibility for what I do. I guess you can say I have a strong, assertive personality (I like to argue a lot). On one side I completely understand Alastor's point, people need to learn to be more responsible for themselves and not rely on others. Then I think, not everyone has a strong, assertive personality and therefore they rely more on the people who are around them and advise them.

                          It's a tough issue and a interesting one to talk about (One I wish people would talk about more)
                          http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=30412676
                          MMO Football Game

                          I like McDaniels, he will be a good coach. Just not for this team. Belichick needed his Cleveland stint to become the coach he is now and McDaniels is showing the same signs.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                            My loyalty runs with the team. Sometimes losing a player frustrates you, but you have to put a positive spin on it and root for your team.

                            Losing Shanahan was good. I think things had become stale for him, and the fact he constantly ignored the defense drove me nuts. I think change will be good.

                            Losing Cutler was frustrating, but we can hope McD's system can transform Orton into something decent.

                            Losing Marshall hurts the team, but I am disappointed with him as a man due to his off-the-field behaviors. I will not be sad to see him leave, though I will miss his YAC on Sundays, he was fun to watch.
                            Normally a new NFL coach gets a "honeymoon period" where fans are patient to see how things will turn out, they don't expect instant success. But, NOT this year!

                            The real downside risk is that Cutler goes on to be a consistent pro-bowl player and ultimately wins a SB, either with Chicago or some other team.

                            Then McDaniels will always be remembered as the Ass-Hat who ran the Super-bowl QB out of town. Nobody will ever let him forget it, either way.

                            If McDaniels manages to coach the team into a consistent winner over the next 3 years then he'll be a hero.

                            That's kind of a tough road to hoe.

                            Regardless, this season will be very interesting.
                            The fireworks are going to be intense by game 4. That's for sure!

                            That's the biggest reason why McDaniels made a HUGE mistake by the way he's handled things.

                            If he just came in and kept the offense relatively intact, fired the entire defense and concentrated on a 2 or 3 year effort to fix the defense, everybody would cut him some slack.

                            They'd say "Shanahan ruined the defense and it's going to take some time to fix things."

                            If the team went 6-10 with Cutler, Marshall and that offense, nobody really could blame McDaniels too badly. These things take some time.

                            But, to run your pro-bowl QB out of town by trying to trade (and failing) for Matt Cassel? Then lose your pro-bowl WR? (Not his fault).

                            Now, NOBODY is going to cut McDaniels any slack at all! If he loses the FIRST GAME these boards are going to be filled with people jumping off the band-wagon and the NFL networks are going to be filled with experts ridiculing him.

                            The South Stands will get VERY ugly by game 4 if the Broncos don't start strong (at least 3-1 in the first 4 games).

                            And that's just when the schedule starts to get utterly brutal, with teams like the Patriots, Giants, Colts, Chargers, etc., etc.

                            That's why this is such a mistake. It just puts impossible and unrealistic pressure on McDaniels and the team to IMMEDIATELY justify everything that he's done.

                            And let's face it. This is just not a very good team yet. They have taken two big steps backward in losing their two best offensive players. The defense still sucks and will take some time, probably a couple of years, to get back to being a good defense again, the kind of defense that wins games.

                            What happens meanwhile?

                            Instead of the fans and media being patient with McDaniels and having a good feeling about things, everybody's upset and those who are the biggest homers now, will turn like vicious wolverines and start savaging McDaniels if he doesn't win AT ONCE!

                            (I'm not including you in this list MUG, but you have to admit that thousands of Broncos fans are living in unrealistic fantasy bubbles and will be unduly pessimistic when those bubbles are burst by reality).
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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by IDI I3R0NC0 IBI View Post
                              http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...lty-in-the-NFL

                              What is your opinion on the subject...feel free to bring up whatever you want..

                              Examples: Bronco 2008 Pro bowlers...

                              Do you believe there is loyalty in the NFL and do you think players should decide whether or not to play for a team if the front office doesn't show them the same loyalty in return?
                              You are pulling for shirts and a city. There is no loyalty and NFL football is getting more silly as the years go by.

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                              • #75
                                Im out of cp...but Cugel deserves some for the post above.

                                I really think Mcd could be a very good coach one day...but his rookie mistakes were so outrageous that he probably wont be around long enough to make it happen.

                                Learning a new off and a new def coupled with a very hard schedule has stacked the deck against mcd.....his questionable personal moves have taken away his honeymoon period.
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