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Is 21-30 yards deep enough...some intersting split stats for Orton

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  • #76
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    Orton was averaging 238 yds per game before he was hurt - 62.2% pass completion, 7.3 yds per attempt. He was a top ten passer in 4 of the first 7 weeks. If a DC plays "run-first" against a QB like that, he's an idiot and needs to be fired.
    This is the same thing that happened to Rex in 06 he was lighting it up and it took about 6 games before Ds started to game plan for him and the rest is history. The bears are a run first team, the tape on Orton is mostly from 05 where he averaged 124ypg, in 07 it was 159ypg and his first 2 games of 08 he averaged 150ypg with 0TD so what D is not going to try to stop the run? It wasn’t until he put a few games together that the Ds started to adjust to him.

    Orton's Defense was #21 last season - not taking a whole lot of pressure off of Kyle. And they gave away late leads in 3 games - Carolina, Tampa, & Atlanta (couldn't stop a rookie QB for ELEVEN FREAKIN' SECONDS) - while not bothering to even show up for the playoff-deciding season finale against Houston. That forced Orton to try and make something happen late in games (with an OC who's totally incapable of making in-game adjustments) - that's ADDING PRESSURE, not taking it off.
    The Defense wasn’t as bad as it may seem, they where great at takeaways and although they where ranked #21 in yards, that doesn’t tell the whole picture because they ran the most defensive plays out of the whole league. Out of the other top 10 Ds the bears ran another 120-167plays. So if you look at the yards per play they where ranked #5. The problem comes when your O can’t sustain drives and it puts the D back out on the field. Even though they are a top 5 in yards per play they are going to get ground down and the total yards is going to go up, the D was ranked 29 in TOP, this is why we saw so many games where the D couldn’t hold, when you have to play more downs your going to tire out.


    Jay had a hurt finger for a two games after he slapped a defender's helmet. But he was throwing to a Pro Bowl WR and a rookie sensation WR while behind one of the best o-lines in the NFL. With Mike Shanahan orchestrating the Offense.
    *sarcasm* But that High-knuckle sprain should have been in a cast, and you need to understand that Jay is a mobile QB who can scramble, and roll out to extend the play. And his high-knuckle sprain affected his ability to scramble. If you cant run and scramble due to a high-knuckle sprain when you are a scrambling QB that will really effect his game.

    Kyle had a high-ankle sprain that he could barely walk on for 7 games.
    He could barley walk on it but running was fine? His first game back against GB it’s the 4thQTR we are on the GB 36, GB jumps offsides so free play, Orton throws an interception to Collins, Orton RUNS him down and trips him up at our 38yard line. Orton gets called for tripping and offsetting penalties result.

    http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...&override=true

    (7:56) (Shotgun) 18-K.Orton pass short middle intended for 80-B.Lloyd INTERCEPTED by 36-N.Collins at GB 21. 36-N.Collins to CHI 38 for 41 yards (18-K.Orton). Penalty on GB-96-M.Montgomery, Defensive Offside, offsetting, enforced at GB 36 - No Play. Penalty on CHI-18-K.Orton, Tripping, offsetting.

    So Ortons magic high ankle sprain allows him to run, but just not walk or throw? I guess that’s the same as Jays high-knuckle sprain stopping him from running. Besides Orton said himself his ankle was fine.

    I understand that if the ankle is bad you couldn’t plant on it and throw, but if you can RUN on it then you can plant on it.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by dbldrew View Post
      I understand that if the ankle is bad you couldn’t plant on it and throw, but if you can RUN on it then you can plant on it.
      Not true. (Not calling you a liar, but just saying you are mistaken.) First, pushing
      off to pass the ball requires a different set of muscles and tendons than running.
      When running, you are going straight forward, and the hamstring and calf, and
      the associated tendons, are in play. When throwing the ball, you are more
      perpindicular to the target, and the muscles and tendons on the outside of the
      plant foot are more in use. So the ability to run forward is not an indicator of
      the ability to do other things.

      In fact, I noticed a decline in Orton's mobility following his injury. While he could
      run, he had trouble cutting, especially to his left. Moreover, I saw him throwing
      awkwardly off his front foot or trying to pass flat-footed at times. Orton does
      have a strong arm, by NFL standards, but he still doesn't have Cutler's
      howitzer, and he needs that plant foot to put the steam into his passes.

      The fact is, Orton was not nearly as good the last half of last year as he was
      the first half. The only factor that had significantly changed was his injury.
      Bring into the argument anything you want, but those are the facts . . .

      -----

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by neckbeard
        Orton was averaging 238 yds per game before he was hurt - 62.2% pass completion, 7.3 yds per attempt. He was a top ten passer in 4 of the first 7 weeks. If a DC plays "run-first" against a QB like that, he's an idiot and needs to be fired.
        Originally posted by dbldrew View Post
        This is the same thing that happened to Rex in 06 he was lighting it up and it took about 6 games before Ds started to game plan for him and the rest is history. The bears are a run first team, the tape on Orton is mostly from 05 where he averaged 124ypg, in 07 it was 159ypg and his first 2 games of 08 he averaged 150ypg with 0TD so what D is not going to try to stop the run? It wasn’t until he put a few games together that the Ds started to adjust to him.
        Defenses took a few games to adjust to Rex - Minnesota actually showed how to do it in game 3 of 2006, Arizona was just the first team to successfully do it - because there was no useable game film of Rex in Ron Turner's Offense to use for gameplanning. Once they had a couple of games worth of footage, it was all over for Rex - against decent Defenses anyway.

        Before the start of last season, there was already 18 games worth of film showing KO in Turner's Offense. It doesn't take that much to spot the flaws of a bad QB. Teams didn't "adjust" to Orton when he "put a few games together," he kept getting better - until he was injured.

        Originally posted by neckbeard
        Orton's Defense was #21 last season - not taking a whole lot of pressure off of Kyle. And they gave away late leads in 3 games - Carolina, Tampa, & Atlanta (couldn't stop a rookie QB for ELEVEN FREAKIN' SECONDS) - while not bothering to even show up for the playoff-deciding season finale against Houston. That forced Orton to try and make something happen late in games (with an OC who's totally incapable of making in-game adjustments) - that's ADDING PRESSURE, not taking it off.
        Originally posted by dbldrew View Post
        The Defense wasn’t as bad as it may seem, they where great at takeaways and although they where ranked #21 in yards, that doesn’t tell the whole picture because they ran the most defensive plays out of the whole league. Out of the other top 10 Ds the bears ran another 120-167plays. So if you look at the yards per play they where ranked #5. The problem comes when your O can’t sustain drives and it puts the D back out on the field. Even though they are a top 5 in yards per play they are going to get ground down and the total yards is going to go up, the D was ranked 29 in TOP, this is why we saw so many games where the D couldn’t hold, when you have to play more downs your going to tire out.
        The D spent so much time on the field because they couldn't stop opposing Offenses. They were 28th in stopping 3rd down conversions.

        Their lack of discipline also killed them. They were #5 in penalty yards.

        Originally posted by neckbeard
        Jay had a hurt finger for a two games after he slapped a defender's helmet. But he was throwing to a Pro Bowl WR and a rookie sensation WR while behind one of the best o-lines in the NFL. With Mike Shanahan orchestrating the Offense.
        Originally posted by dbldrew View Post
        *sarcasm* But that High-knuckle sprain should have been in a cast, and you need to understand that Jay is a mobile QB who can scramble, and roll out to extend the play. And his high-knuckle sprain affected his ability to scramble. If you cant run and scramble due to a high-knuckle sprain when you are a scrambling QB that will really effect his game.
        Wow. I guess you told me...

        Originally posted by neckbeard
        Kyle had a high-ankle sprain that he could barely walk on for 7 games.
        Originally posted by dbldrew View Post
        He could barley walk on it but running was fine? His first game back against GB it’s the 4thQTR we are on the GB 36, GB jumps offsides so free play, Orton throws an interception to Collins, Orton RUNS him down and trips him up at our 38yard line. Orton gets called for tripping and offsetting penalties result.

        http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...&override=true

        (7:56) (Shotgun) 18-K.Orton pass short middle intended for 80-B.Lloyd INTERCEPTED by 36-N.Collins at GB 21. 36-N.Collins to CHI 38 for 41 yards (18-K.Orton). Penalty on GB-96-M.Montgomery, Defensive Offside, offsetting, enforced at GB 36 - No Play. Penalty on CHI-18-K.Orton, Tripping, offsetting.

        So Ortons magic high ankle sprain allows him to run, but just not walk or throw? I guess that’s the same as Jays high-knuckle sprain stopping him from running. Besides Orton said himself his ankle was fine.

        I understand that if the ankle is bad you couldn’t plant on it and throw, but if you can RUN on it then you can plant on it.
        And in the 2003 Capital One Bowl Orton played with a dislocated thumb, cracked ribs, and a sprained toe. He's a tough SOB. Just because he can grit his teeth and make a good physical effort thru pain, that doesn't mean it can't affect how well he can perform. He had trouble walking on it.

        Look at film of ANY game in the 2nd half of 2008 and when they aren't actually running a play, Orton was visibly limping. He forced his way thru the pain to try and make plays, but the pain was still there and it did take quite a bit away from his game.

        Kyle said that the change which had really allowed him to play so well at the beginning of 2008 was that he had finally found his proper balance. It completely straightened out any troubles he had with his mechanics. Then he had a foot almost twisted off. Not being able to walk, stand or run normally on it screwed his balance up.
        "That's a crap question."
        - Kyle Orton

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
          And in the 2003 Capital One Bowl Orton played with a dislocated thumb, cracked ribs, and a sprained toe. He's a tough SOB.
          I plagiarized this on another board.

          (I'm not going to say where publicly because I don't want these trolls over there, too.)

          -----

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by topscribe View Post
            Here are another couple overlooked items:

            The Bears were #30 in the league in pass defense, in terms of yards.

            The Bears' running game averaged 3.9 YPC. The Broncos averaged. 5.0, taking
            pressure off Cutler.


            In the end, so what? Cutler is with the Bears. Orton is with the Broncos. I don't
            understand this pissing contest regarding the two. It sounds like "my daddy can
            beat up your daddy."

            Enough already.

            -----
            In terms of yards, the Bears were tied for 8th best yielding 6.6 yards per pass. the Bucs were ranked 4th overall in total passing yards yielded, and still gave up 6.7 a pop.

            The average # of plays the top 5 defenses faced over the course of the season last year was 952

            The Bears Defense faced 1087 or 135 more plays over the season.

            To give you an idea of how huge a disparity this, 135 more plays is 14.2% more plays defended over the course of he season. Maybe it doesn't seem like much, but the top five teams faced only an average of 59.5 plays a game. So the over the course of the season, the Bears had to defend what would have been the equivalent of 2.27 more games in a season.

            Now why were they on the field so long-Well the Bears were top 5 in the League in third down completion % @ 35. They were also 2nd best in the League in takeaways w/32.

            Now Kyle Orton was the 25th ranked QB in the NFL @ 1st down percentage at 30.3, he was also the 25th ranked QB in accuracy (comp %), the 24th ranked QB in yards per attempt, and the 25th ranked qb in passer rating.

            25,25,24,25-that is consistency.
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            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
              In terms of yards, the Bears were tied for 8th best yielding 6.6 yards per pass. the Bucs were ranked 4th overall in total passing yards yielded, and still gave up 6.7 a pop.

              The average # of plays the top 5 defenses faced over the course of the season last year was 952

              The Bears Defense faced 1087 or 135 more plays over the season.

              To give you an idea of how huge a disparity this, 135 more plays is 14.2% more plays defended over the course of he season. Maybe it doesn't seem like much, but the top five teams faced only an average of 59.5 plays a game. So the over the course of the season, the Bears had to defend what would have been the equivalent of 2.27 more games in a season.

              Now why were they on the field so long-Well the Bears were top 5 in the League in third down completion % @ 35. They were also 2nd best in the League in takeaways w/32.

              Now Kyle Orton was the 25th ranked QB in the NFL @ 1st down percentage at 30.3, he was also the 25th ranked QB in accuracy (comp %), the 24th ranked QB in yards per attempt, and the 25th ranked qb in passer rating.

              25,25,24,25-that is consistency.
              Right. When Orton got the ball, the rest of the offense went and sat down,
              so it was all on Orton. Every single stat was his fault. Forget the pathetic
              O-line, pathetic WRs, pathetic play-calling (to use the term loosely), and
              pathetic coaching . . . and pathetic pass defense.

              And you are still a troll, over here trying to make us feel bad about our QB.
              McDaniels said Orton was the one he wanted. Orton was the key to the trade.
              Yes, there is great disparity in the trade, with the two firsts and third, but
              had Orton not been part of it, the trade would not have happened.

              Now, on the Denver Broncos home site, I'm sure they have contact provisions,
              and there you can send something to McDaniels to tell him how stupid he was
              to like and want Orton. He is the one to contact with that. Your spamming
              the boards here is not going to accomplish anything, unless you just want to
              try to make us feel bad.

              -----

              Comment


              • #82
                You made the following statement.

                Originally posted by topscribe
                The Bears were #30 in the league in pass defense
                I just explained how hey got there.

                Originally posted by ursamajor
                Now why were they on the field so long-Well the Bears were top 5 in the League in third down completion % @ 35. They were also 2nd best in the League in takeaways w/32.

                Now Kyle Orton was the 25th ranked QB in the NFL @ 1st down percentage at 30.3, he was also the 25th ranked QB in accuracy (comp %), the 24th ranked QB in yards per attempt, and the 25th ranked qb in passer rating
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                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                  Right. When Orton got the ball, the rest of the offense went and sat down
                  Uhm nope-Forte was the 3rd best back in the league in yards from scrimmage, the 5th best back in 1st downs and top 10 in tds. Olsen was the top 10 in receptions and tds for TEs. Kreutz was the best center in football, Infact the entire O-Line was in the top third of the league in pass blocking.

                  While the roster wasn't loaded top to bottom with talent, he had some weapons to work with.
                  Last edited by ursamajor; 06-28-2009, 02:44 PM.
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
                    Uhm nope-Forte was the 3rd best back in the league in yards from scrimmage, the 5th best back in 1st downs and top 10 in tds. Olsen was the top 10 in receptions and tds for TEs. Kreutz was the best center in football, Infact the entire O-Line was in the top third of the league in pass blocking.

                    While the roster wasn't loaded top to bottom with talent, he had some weapons to work with.
                    The Broncos had seven (count 'em, 7) RBs whose YPC were superior to Forte's.
                    That is not to say Forte himself was bad, but that the running game itself was.

                    And Olsen should have done well at TE. Your best WR had all of 51 catches.
                    Our third best receiver had nearly that many with 49. And our best more than
                    doubled that figure with 104. In fact, our second best nearly doubled it (91).

                    So the Bears had weapons? Try Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Graham,
                    Scheffler, and Hillis for starters.

                    Stop trying to compare the two QBs. They were what they were within their
                    respective situations. It means nothing--absolutely nothing--toward what
                    they may or may not do this year. What you seem to be trying to do is to
                    tell us how Orton is going to suck, when McDaniels & co. showed no interest
                    in going after another QB, once they got Orton. That shows me a whole lot
                    more than your constant lobbying . . .

                    -----
                    Last edited by topscribe; 06-28-2009, 02:58 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                      The Broncos averaged. 5.0, taking
                      pressure off Cutler.
                      What!!! Shanny's offesnsive philosophy is right in suit with Walsh's-always has been.

                      "...The popular term "West Coast Offense" is more of a philosophy and an approach to the game than it is a set of plays or formations. Traditional offensive thinking argues that a team must establish its running game first, which will draw the defense in and open up vertical passing lanes down field (i.e., passing lanes that run perpendicular to the line of scrimmage).

                      Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense, however, differs from traditional offense by instead emphasizing a short, horizontal passing attack to help stretch the defense out, thus opening up running lanes. The West Coast Offense as implemented under Walsh features precisely run pass patterns by the receivers that make up about 65% to 80% of the offensive scheme. With the defense stretched out, the offense is then free to focus the remaining plays on longer throws (more than 14 yards) and mid to long yard rushes..."
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                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
                        What!!! Shanny's offesnsive philosophy is right in suit with Walsh's-always has been.

                        "...The popular term "West Coast Offense" is more of a philosophy and an approach to the game than it is a set of plays or formations. Traditional offensive thinking argues that a team must establish its running game first, which will draw the defense in and open up vertical passing lanes down field (i.e., passing lanes that run perpendicular to the line of scrimmage).

                        Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense, however, differs from traditional offense by instead emphasizing a short, horizontal passing attack to help stretch the defense out, thus opening up running lanes. The West Coast Offense as implemented under Walsh features precisely run pass patterns by the receivers that make up about 65% to 80% of the offensive scheme. With the defense stretched out, the offense is then free to focus the remaining plays on longer throws (more than 14 yards) and mid to long yard rushes..."
                        Thanks for the football lesson.

                        That, however, does not alter the figures . . .

                        -----

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                          Try Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Graham,
                          Scheffler, and Hillis for starters.
                          What i see is all but 1, count em 1 of the players you listed as being second day players, whom the best QB in his Draft make look like world beaters.

                          If the receivers made the QB and not vice-versa, wouldn't Leinert have looked every bit as impressive as Warner? I mean they did have the same weapons.

                          It all comes back to the QB.
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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                            Thanks for the football lesson.

                            That, however, does not alter the figures . . .

                            -----
                            The reason why they all got in the neighborhood of 5 yards a pop was because Cutler ran the defense so ragged with his arm, that when a run was actually called, the back was already on average 5 yards down field before the defense could adjust and make the tackle. That is why your savior FB had roughly the same average as a guy that sold cell phones at a kiosk.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
                              What i see is all but 1, count em 1 of the players you listed as being second day players, whom the best QB in his Draft make look like world beaters.

                              If the receivers made the QB and not vice-versa, wouldn't Leinert have looked every bit as impressive as Warner? I mean they did have the same weapons.

                              It all comes back to the QB.
                              Actually, in Leinart's case, they did in college.

                              But Marshall, count him, Marshall, a second day player, is one of three whole
                              wide receivers to gather in 100 or more receptions. Scheffler, count him,
                              Scheffler, is a second-rounder (first day), and Graham, count him, Graham is
                              a first-rounder. Yes, and Stokley, count him, Stokley is regarded as one of the
                              best slot receivers in the game and was before Cutler ever turned pro. And
                              Hillis, count him, Hillis was turning into the type of weapon you haven't seen
                              in Chicago.

                              Oh, by the way, I might mention on the side that Rod Smith, count him, Rod
                              Smith wasn't even drafted . . . and you have never had a WR that good . . .


                              So . . . now that we have that out of the way, what was your point? Your
                              wide receivers stink. Period. That is not just my opinion: that is pretty much
                              held throughout the league by commentators and analysts.

                              -----

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
                                What i see is all but 1, count em 1 of the players you listed as being second day players, whom the best QB in his Draft make look like world beaters.

                                If the receivers made the QB and not vice-versa, wouldn't Leinert have looked every bit as impressive as Warner? I mean they did have the same weapons.

                                It all comes back to the QB.
                                Actually, in Leinart's case, they did in college.

                                But Marshall, count him, Marshall, a second day player, is one of three whole
                                wide receivers to gather in 100 or more receptions. Scheffler, count him,
                                Scheffler, is a second-rounder (first day), and Graham, count him, Graham is
                                a first-rounder. Yes, and Stokley, count him, Stokley is regarded as one of the
                                best slot receivers in the game and was before Cutler ever turned pro. And
                                Hillis, count him, Hillis was turning into the type of weapon you haven't seen
                                in Chicago. Of course, you know about Fast Eddie, count him, Royal, if you
                                haven't had yourself sealed in a bomb shelter the last year, that is.

                                Oh, by the way, I might mention on the side that Rod Smith, count him, Rod
                                Smith wasn't even drafted . . . and you have never had a WR that good . . .


                                So . . . now that we have that out of the way, what was your point? Your
                                wide receivers stink. That is not just my opinion: that is pretty much held
                                throughout the league by commentators and analysts.


                                Originally posted by ursamajor View Post
                                The reason why they all got in the neighborhood of 5 yards a pop was because Cutler ran the defense so ragged with his arm, that when a run was actually called, the back was already on average 5 yards down field before the defense could adjust and make the tackle. That is why your savior FB had roughly the same average as a guy that sold cell phones at a kiosk.
                                What a crock of crap.

                                I think I'll just let your argument there stand by itself. You did yourself enough
                                damage as it is.

                                -----
                                Last edited by topscribe; 06-28-2009, 03:29 PM.

                                Comment

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